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Mass unmarked grave for 800 babies in Tuam

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    #602
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    So stop?

    And allow bias and half-truths to go unchecked?


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    #603
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,497 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    The Irish Catholic Church is now perhaps the safest organisation in the country for children to be involved with. I call that progress.

    That remains to be seen,

    Also the changes implemented were forced upon them after it was proven beyond doubt that they had some very very serious failings surrounding allowing abuse and covering it under the direction of the Vatican.

    So they've implemented changes in Ireland, but its ok for the church as a whole to still hide the crimes off the past? That doesn't make them sound very honest.


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    #604
    Going Strong
    Registered Users Posts: 837 ✭✭✭Going Strong


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    The Irish Catholic Church is now perhaps the safest organisation in the country for children to be involved with. I call that progress.

    So the historical abuse that went on for decades was a good thing really? In that it showed up the flaws in the church's pastoral care when it came to children. The victims will be honoured to hear that it was all worthwhile in the end.


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    #605
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    The Irish Catholic Church is now perhaps the safest organisation in the country for children to be involved with. I call that progress.

    I doubt that. The eyes are on them here but I wonder what stories will emerge in years to come from children in developing countries in the care of the RCC.


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    #606
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,497 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    eviltwin wrote: »
    I doubt that. The eyes are on them here but I wonder what stories will emerge in years to come from children in developing countries in the care of the RCC.

    You'll note he's very selective with his words,

    He specifically said the Irish Catholic Church because the Irish Catholic church is now being watched like a hawk and they've been forced into implementing changes....after they had committed awful crimes.

    The catholic church overall is still as unsafe for children as ever, especially in Asia, Africa and south America....we'll be hearing about abuse from these parts of the world for many decades to come :mad:


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    #607
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    Going Strong wrote: »
    So the historical abuse that went on for decades was a good thing really?

    No
    Going Strong wrote: »
    In that it showed up the flaws in the church's pastoral care when it came to children.

    The crimes did do this, you're right.


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    #608
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    Cabaal wrote: »
    The catholic church overall is still as unsafe for children as ever, especially in Asia, Africa and south America....we'll be hearing about abuse from these parts of the world for many decades to come :mad:

    I hope not.


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    #609
    Flippyfloppy
    Registered Users Posts: 3,748 ✭✭✭Flippyfloppy


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    The Irish Catholic Church is now perhaps the safest organisation in the country for children to be involved with. I call that progress.

    I call that made up.

    And even if it were true , oh whoopdeedoo. How good of them.


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    #610
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    Flippyfloppy wrote: »
    I call that made up.

    And even if it were true , oh whoopdeedoo. How good of them.

    I think it's a good thing that Irish kids are safe.


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    #611
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Flippyfloppy wrote: »
    I call that made up.

    And even if it were true , oh whoopdeedoo. How good of them.

    Praising the church for not abusing children. You couldn't make it up.


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    #612
    zl1whqvjs75cdy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,042 ✭✭✭zl1whqvjs75cdy


    O wow so the the current bar for the RCC to pass is to not be raping scores of children. Maybe that's how we should base all our evaluations of people. "Ah sure he didn't rape a whole load of kids so he's grand".


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    #613
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,497 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    http://www.broadsheet.ie/2014/06/04/nothing-to-see-here-23/
    Infant mortality rates of ‘illegitimate’ children in the state compared to those born within wedlock.

    mortality-rates.jpg


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    #614
    Flippyfloppy
    Registered Users Posts: 3,748 ✭✭✭Flippyfloppy


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    I think it's a good thing that Irish kids are safe.

    Absoutely, but through restricted & supervised contact with members of the clergy, as well as there being no more laundries, homes or industrial boarding schools.


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    #615
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    eviltwin wrote: »
    Praising the church for not abusing children. You couldn't make it up.

    No. Praising them for designing policies and implementing best practice that ensures that children are not at risk from potential abusers whilst in church or in church-run activities.

    That's a good thing. Something not to be sneered at. Obviously, the starting position is that no-one should ever abuse anyone. But it's vital to have policies and practices in place to prevent those that might try to.


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    #616
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    I think it's a good thing that Irish kids are safe.

    How very Irish of you.

    Feck all the other kids who aren't Irish eh?


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    #617
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    donkeyoaty0099 wrote: »
    O wow so the the current bar for the RCC to pass is to not be raping scores of children. Maybe that's how we should base all our evaluations of people. "Ah sure he didn't rape a whole load of kids so he's grand".

    You're deliberately misunderstanding.

    It is a good thing that any organisation that deals with children (and others) to have policies and proceedures in place to ensure their safety. That's a good thing.


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    #618
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    How very Irish of you.

    Feck all the other kids who aren't Irish eh?

    No


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    #619
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    No. Praising them for designing policies and implementing best practice that ensures that children are not at risk from potential abusers whilst in church or in church-run activities.

    That's a good thing. Something not to be sneered at. Obviously, the starting position is that no-one should ever abuse anyone. But it's vital to have policies and practices in place to prevent those that might try to.

    There shouldn't have to be those kinds of policies beyond the norm for organisations where kids are involved, it should be a given that your kids are as safe with a priest or a nun as they are with any other person out there.


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    #620
    Going Strong
    Registered Users Posts: 837 ✭✭✭Going Strong


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    You're deliberately misunderstanding.

    It is a good thing that any organisation that deals with children (and others) to have policies and proceedures in place to ensure their safety. That's a good thing.


    And the cover ups and desperately twisting and turning in order to avoid paying compensation to the victims? Good thing or not? After all, as a mass goer, you'll be asked to pay up on the church's behalf via the dues and collection plates.


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    #621
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    Flippyfloppy wrote: »
    Absoutely, but through restricted & supervised contact with members of the clergy, as well as there being no more laundries, homes or industrial boarding schools.

    Through safe-guarding against potential abusers - clergy and non-clergy. It would be a half-measure and plain wrong to assume that non-clergy cannot abuse. It's that kind of bias that led to the problem in the first place (assuming that priest simply couldn't abuse because they were priests).


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    #622
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,497 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    No. Praising them for designing policies and implementing best practice that ensures that children are not at risk from potential abusers whilst in church or in church-run activities.

    That's a good thing. Something not to be sneered at. Obviously, the starting position is that no-one should ever abuse anyone. But it's vital to have policies and practices in place to prevent those that might try to.

    You seem to be assuming that big bad people entered the priest hood and abused children and that was it....we all wish that was it!

    You seem to be forgetting the church own policy's for:
    - Moving the priest to a different area when they found out about the abuse
    - Setting up homes where they "treated" priests who abused, but at the same time allowing said same priests access to children to abuse further
    - Swearing the poor victims to silence with threats
    - Failing to inform parents of the victims
    - Failing to report anything to the Gardai
    - Documenting everything and coming up with the internal guidelines for how the above should be done.

    If it was only the odd bit of sex abuse you might have a credible defense here, but you seem to be forgetting the massive amount of work that the Vatican and catholic church on all levels as a whole put into ensuring the whole thing remained hidden at pretty much all costs.


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    #623
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    eviltwin wrote: »
    There shouldn't have to be those kinds of policies beyond the norm for organisations where kids are involved, it should be a given that your kids are as safe with a priest or a nun as they are with any other person out there.

    That is my point. All organisations dealing with children should have child-welfare proceedures as stringent as the RCC's. And, increasingly, more and more are.


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    #624
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    No. Praising them for designing policies and implementing best practice that ensures that children are not at risk from potential abusers whilst in church or in church-run activities.

    That's a good thing. Something not to be sneered at. Obviously, the starting position is that no-one should ever abuse anyone. But it's vital to have policies and practices in place to prevent those that might try to.

    Praise them for being forced to...

    No. I don't think so.

    I condemn them for not having such policies in the first place and putting the reputation of their organisation above the welfare of children.


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    #625
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,417 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Cabaal wrote: »
    http://www.broadsheet.ie/2014/06/04/nothing-to-see-here-23/

    Infant mortality rates of ‘illegitimate’ children in the state compared to those born within wedlock.
    From a high base, kids born without the church's blessing are three to *five* times more likely to die.

    (a) there's evolution for you - ever wondered why people are so complacent towards the church? If we can assume that attitudes towards the church are at least in some sense passed vertically from parents to kids, then all the mothers who ignored the church "teachings" were heartbreakingly less likely to have kids that survived to adulthood. Hence the conditions were in place for complacent people and attitudes to flood the gene + meme pools.

    (b) this is solid, cynical evidence which may explain why some people think marriage is vital for children's health. Might be worth asking Mr Quinn his views on that.

    (b) In 1923, a ~35% chance of death. Jesus Tap-Dancing Christ. What the f*ck was wrong with this country?


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    #626
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    Going Strong wrote: »
    And the cover ups and desperately twisting and turning in order to avoid paying compensation to the victims? Good thing or not?

    I already answered this query (for what it's worth) and said it was about as wrong as one could get. It would be difficult to get the handling more wrong even if one tried.

    You should read the rest of the thread.


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    #627
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    No

    Then why specify Irish children. The RCC is not an Irish organisation - it is global.

    A global organisation that refuses to cooperate with the UN.


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    #628
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    Cabaal wrote: »
    You seem to be assuming that big bad people entered the priest hood and abused children and that was it....we all wish that was it!

    You seem to be forgetting the church own policy's for:

    I'm not.


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    #629
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Then why specify Irish children. The RCC is not an Irish organisation - it is global.

    A global organisation that refuses to cooperate with the UN.

    The Irish Catholic Church is an Irish (bundle of) organisations. Every parish, diocese, religious order, charity, (in some cases) schools are independent organisations.

    I mention Irish children because the Irish Catholic Church have oversight of this. I hope that other countries are taking note.


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    #630
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,497 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    I'm not.

    Oh but you think its ok for the church to not release records to allow full and proper investigations then? because thats exactly what they are doing right now.

    I suppose thats what a progressive and changed organisation does these days eh?
    :rolleyes:

    In all seriousness, your doing the catholic church no favors in this thread


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    #631
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,497 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    The Irish Catholic Church is an Irish (bundle of) organisations. Every parish, diocese, religious order, charity, (in some cases) schools are independent organisations.

    I mention Irish children because the Irish Catholic Church have oversight of this. I hope that other countries are taking note.

    But these still take direction and policy from the Vatican,

    You claim the catholic church has changed but the Vatican has done next to nothing to implement a worldwide policy in its organisation and has done nothing to be open about its past crimes.


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