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Mass unmarked grave for 800 babies in Tuam

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    #692
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    Birroc wrote: »
    Ah stop will ya, just stop and cop yourself on.

    Why do you find it difficult to beleive that a disabled child in the 1940s may not be able to feed and be malnourished? Why is this unbelievable to you? Do you not have an open mind about this Tuam case?


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    #693
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    But you said the nuns could pretty much write what they wanted.

    If a child died from malnutrition how could anyone prove it was deliberate, that it was malnutrition by neglect.

    I'm sure the nuns were a savvy lot even back then and people entering those homes from the outside saw what the nuns wanted them to see. I'm sure they were given a whole lot of crap that they just took as fact because it was a nun and a nun wouldn't lie would she? You're talking the 1920's up to the 1960's and the orders were put on a pedestal. I'm sure many people who were in the homes at the time who told their stories were considered to by lying after all they were unmarried mother and illegitimate children, it was seen as a character flaw. Who would believe them?


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    #694
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    Why do you find it difficult to beleive that a disabled child in the 1940s may not be able to feed and be malnourished? Why is this unbelievable to you? Do you not have an open mind about this Tuam case?

    Who disabled these children? Why?


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    #695
    bbsrs
    Registered Users Posts: 943 ✭✭✭bbsrs


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    The church is us and we are the church.

    As much as we all like to think otherwise, our grandparents and great-grandparents (and in some cases our parents) knew about these "homes" and did nothing about them. They were happy that the "problem" of unmarried mothers was being taken care of for them.

    You Sir are either trolling or just not thinking rationally.


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    #696
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    Why do you find it difficult to beleive that a disabled child in the 1940s may not be able to feed and be malnourished? Why is this unbelievable to you? Do you not have an open mind about this Tuam case?

    If that was the case why would the child not have been transported to the local hospital?


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    #697
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    eviltwin wrote: »
    I'm sure the nuns were a savvy lot even back then and people entering those homes from the outside saw what the nuns wanted them to see.

    How do you explain the 1944 inspection report then?


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    #698
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    eviltwin wrote: »
    A doctor probably had to sign off on it, the doctor was unlikely to fake a cert even back then.

    Unless it was suicide - suicide was a sin after all and those who committed it would be denied a Christian burial.
    Not dumped in a septic tank mass grave denial but denied internment in a standard grave on 'consecrated' ground burial.


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    #699
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    eviltwin wrote: »
    If that was the case why would the child not have been transported to the local hospital?

    Good question. Would the local have been able to remedy the situation I wonder?


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    #700
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    Who disabled these children? Why?

    I imagine these (theoretical) children were born disabled.


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    #701
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    It came from the Victorians really, to be more accurate, adopted and endorsed by the catholic church.

    One step away from it was all de Brits fault now.


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    #702
    Hailey Abundant Harmonica
    Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ Hailey Abundant Harmonica


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    I imagine these (theoretical) children were born disabled.

    At a rate of over 20% of all births?!


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    #703
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    bbsrs wrote: »
    You Sir are either trolling or just not thinking rationally.

    What did your great-grand parents do to relieve the suffering of mothers and children in these homes?


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    #704
    R P McMurphy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,129 ✭✭✭R P McMurphy


    bbsrs wrote: »
    You Sir are either trolling or just not thinking rationally.

    I think there is a point there though. Much like child abuse, there were probably a large number of people that were aware of what went on in these places, from gardai, department officials, local politicians, doctors etc but was covered up or just ignored. The residents were completed disenfranchised


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    #705
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    How do you explain the 1944 inspection report then?

    I'm sure there was a lot of work done in advance of that visit. The homes themselves were probably lovely places. My aunt was a nun in a mother and baby home and considered the girls to be lucky because their living conditions were often better than they were used to at home, hot water, indoor loos, everything spotless etc. But that is just part of it, the abuse the went on, the mental torment etc would have been hidden, it would have been best foot forward for the inspectors.


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    #706
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    eviltwin wrote: »
    I'm sure there was a lot of work done in advance of that visit........it would have been best foot forward for the inspectors.

    And yet that report included descriptions of malnourished children and pot-bellied kids. Which is it? Was it best foot forward or was that report accurate?


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    #707
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    The church is us and we are the church.

    As much as we all like to think otherwise, our grandparents and great-grandparents (and in some cases our parents) knew about these "homes" and did nothing about them. They were happy that the "problem" of unmarried mothers was being taken care of for them.

    No.

    The church is not 'us'.

    It might be you and thus your increasingly desperate attempts to deflect.

    My great great grandmother was deserted while pregnant. She raised her child all alone funded by taking in sewing and giving piano lessons. He was never malnourished. But then, she was a Irish Methodist and not a member of 'us the church'.

    I am not sure if you are unaware of the control of the RCC had over Irish society or in denial of the extent of that control - either way, you need to open your eyes.


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    #708
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    I imagine these (theoretical) children were born disabled.

    I like to imagine that the lotto ticket in my wallet is a winner.

    It doesn't have much to do with 800 babies in a pit in Tuam, but it's nice.


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    #709
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    I imagine these (theoretical) children were born disabled.

    Stop.

    Just stop now.


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    #710
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Stop.

    Just stop now.

    If you've already made up your mind about what happened in Tuam and how these children died, then there's not need for you to listen.


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    #711
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    How many theoretical children are in the septic tank?


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    #712
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    If you've already made up your mind about what happened in Tuam and how these children died, then there's not need for you to listen.

    It would seem it's you who have made up your mind that the RCC is not liable for any of the deaths - what about the burial of children in a septic tank?

    Is that because they were 'disabled' too?


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    #713
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,632 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    do you mean how many children could theoretically fit in a septic tank?
    about as many as angels who could dance on the head of a pin.


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    #714
    kylith
    Registered Users Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    I imagine these (theoretical) children were born disabled.
    Born too disabled to eat or be fed, but somehow able to survive for up to nine years?


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    #715
    Mr. CooL ICE
    Registered Users Posts: 17,585 ✭✭✭✭Mr. CooL ICE


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    What did your great-grand parents do to relieve the suffering of mothers and children in these homes?

    What would our great grandparents have been able to do to relieve the suffering of mothers and children in these homes?


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    #716
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    What did your great-grand parents do to relieve the suffering of mothers and children in these homes?

    I dare say they donated money to the catholic church every sunday.


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    #717
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    It would seem it's you who have made up your mind that the RCC is not liable for any of the deaths

    No I haven't. Where did I say that?

    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    - what about the burial of children in a septic tank?

    Is that because they were 'disabled' too?

    I've already said (a number of times) that this was plain wrong.


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    #718
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    LordChessington wrote: »
    What would our great grandparents have been able to do to relieve the suffering of mothers and children in these homes?

    They would have had to go against everything they had been taught.

    Some people can't do that even in theses so-called enlightened times.


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    #719
    Waitsian
    Registered Users Posts: 1,708 ✭✭✭Waitsian


    robindch wrote: »

    The Guardian:

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jun/04/children-galway-mass-graves-ireland-catholic-church

    Taken from the article:

    "That's why I am offering the following suggestions as to what the church should do to in response:

    Do not say Catholic prayers over these dead children. Don't insult those who were in life despised and abused by you. Instead, tell us where the rest of the bodies are. There were homes throughout Ireland, outrageous child mortality rates in each. Were the Tuam Bon Secours sisters an anomalous, rebellious sect? Or were church practices much the same the country over? If so, how many died in each of these homes? What are their names? Where are their graves? We don't need more platitudinous damage control, but the truth about our history."


    Powerful words. It won't happen though, sadly. Instead we'll get RTE making a song and dance about some priest blessing a memorial. :mad:


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    #720
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    No I haven't. Where did I say that?




    All I have been reading from your last few posts are deflections and increasing bizarre maybes

    Maybe they were disabled?
    Maybe they couldn't feed themselves?

    Maybe...maybe...maybe...

    Maybe these nuns punished those children who were 'the wages of sin' by neglecting them.

    Maybe it was good old fashioned judgemental malice sanctioned by a judgemental religious doctrine?


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    #721
    jimgoose
    Registered Users Posts: 20,177 ✭✭✭✭jimgoose


    mod9maple wrote: »
    ...Powerful words...

    To be sure. And so say all of us. In the name of Yahweh, tell us where those poor people are, and what their names were. :mad:


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