Mass unmarked grave for 800 babies in Tuam

Obliq

I Heart Internet wrote: »

"most people have nice, pretty stories......"

Your usual aul guff then?

My Dad went to Synge Street CBS. He often told me he was treated very well because he was one of the bright ones they hoped to be able to fast track to the priesthood/jesuits (as far as they were concerned), but those same priests treated others worse than sh1t on their shoe. He told me about the beatings and the unusually cruel punishments his brothers and friends got, and the priest that was known to pick on the same pretty boy for "helping" him with something in the office.....

Dad left age 14 and started full-time work, and never went back until one day there was a model railway exhibition there when we were kids and my Mum made him take us there. No sooner had we driven through the gates than Dad spotted a priest he recognised. First I knew of it was when he went white in the face, then red with rage. He rolled down the window and roared some abuse at the priest, with me and the bro shocked to see him like this, the man who'd never lost his temper to our knowledge before.

There are hundreds of thousands in Ireland who have been traumatised in some way by the religious orders, whether directly and appallingly like with how Dodd was "cared" for, or whether from being helpless in the face of abuse of others.

IHI, you may have no experiences similar yourself, but your CONSTANT downplaying of the situation is insulting and demeaning to those who did. How very "christian" of you.

Dodd wrote: »

Sorry I seem to be writing everything here that comes to mind from when I was in care.
I have never had an out let before and will stop now.

Thanks,bye.

Ah mate...please don't apologise for what is not your fault. What is in bold above speaks volumes, and everything that you are saying needs acknowledgement. I, for one, am here to listen and I reckon it needs saying. Mind yerself. If you want to PM me, fire away.

bumper234

Dodd wrote: »

When I told my Dad later in his life what it was like he was shocked.
He said that nun was good but that same nun sent us to the local shop to buy silver mints to cover the smell of drink she had every day.

If you found her in a good mood she was good but otherwise she was a nightmare.

Sorry I seem to be writing everything here that comes to mind from when I was in care.
I have never had an out let before and will stop now.

Thanks,bye.

You write whatever the hell you want to and i promise you i and others will read every word, I am also available through pm if you just need someone to talk to or to vent.

Going Strong

krankykitty wrote: »

Families must share blame Irish Independent

According to former mayor of Tuam, lots of babies were dying anyway so we shouldn't be pointing fingers at the homes

Wouldn't want to be putting off visitors to the tourist mecca that is Tuam. :rolleyes:

diveout

Obliq wrote: »

Your usual aul guff then?

My Dad went to Synge Street CBS. He often told me he was treated very well because he was one of the bright ones they hoped to be able to fast track to the priesthood/jesuits (as far as they were concerned), but those same priests treated others worse than sh1t on their shoe. He told me about the beatings and the unusually cruel punishments his brothers and friends got, and the priest that was known to pick on the same pretty boy for "helping" him with something in the office.....

Dad left age 14 and started full-time work, and never went back until one day there was a model railway exhibition there when we were kids and my Mum made him take us there. No sooner had we driven through the gates than Dad spotted a priest he recognised. First I knew of it was when he went white in the face, then red with rage. He rolled down the window and roared some abuse at the priest, with me and the bro shocked to see him like this, the man who'd never lost his temper to our knowledge before.

There are hundreds of thousands in Ireland who have been traumatised in some way by the religious orders, whether directly and appallingly like with how Dodd was "cared" for, or whether from being helpless in the face of abuse of others.

The levels of widespread trauma in Ireland are way too underplayed. In some respects the normality of the abuse still lingers. They are just NOT taking it in board and god only knows how many cases of undiagnosed PTSD are walking around.

Every single male member of my family over 40, recounts tales of beatings by priests. One remarked on going home still with the handprints on their face, another says the molestations were better than the beatings. These people are still alive and it is so widespread it's nearly like post-war conditions, with no treatment for trauma. And these were not industrial schools. The one who mentioned the molestations was not entitled to any compensation because it was a "private school." Well, Department of Ed, you let it happen and it was still under your watch.

One family member walked by the huge marble gravemarkings for Christian Brother priests in Glasneven, upon departure of a family funeral, and had a physiological reaction just by seeing them.

I know I could go on and on about this, but the fact that this legacy still grips our schools and controlling the history curriculum, is still a shocking manifestation of people not taking it on board fully.

Cabaal

krankykitty wrote: »

Families must share blame Irish Independent

According to former mayor of Tuam, lots of babies were dying anyway so we shouldn't be pointing fingers at the homes

But if kids outside of homes were dying in huge numbers...then we'd see this in the numbers, we don't.

Yes there was a infant mortality death rate outside of homes which we would find unusually high by todays standards but infant death was part and parcel of life back then, ask any of your parents/grand parents...

Most will have atleast one brother/sister who died and it just wasn't talked about. But these numbers were accounted for.

Even if they was a higher death rate it was down to the culture...not the families. Gov gave no assistance to single mothers. The RCC had created a culture of hatred towards single mothers, this was deep rooted into the vast majority of Irish people because of the rcc.

SpaceTime

Even in my day there was definitely a 'bad atmosphere' in schools here. They never hit us but I had some very strange teachers.

In junior infants one lady used to chase us around with a broom. Shouting "I'll brush your beard!"

I also used to get picked up by the ankles and held over a bin (one of those black bags stretched out over a metal frame).

I also remember in junior infants being told that I'd be glued to the ceiling by the .... ! I have no idea why a middle aged woman would say to a small kid. Utterly bizarre behaviour.

Other than that I was constantly being shouted at and threatened by a teacher when I couldn't hear her (I had fairly serious ear problems at the time).

Then in secondary school we had one teacher who was just an absolute tyrant. Ran the class like a drill Sargent. Threw books at you, threw dusters, screamed abuse directly into your face.
I used to just dread those classes.

We had a few weirdos too who would suddenly bring up totally inappropriate sexual topics in class. At the time we laughed it off but in hindsight it was very weird and should have been reported.

I'm not saying that this stuff is anything even approaching the abuse that some people got in previous generations but I think the bad atmosphere from that era and the had attitudes to kids most definitely came from that same school of thought.

It definitely made me way too shy as a kid. I used to just shut up and say nothing a lot of the time. Only really came out of my shell when I was in school abroad and in university later on.

In general though I think the Irish primary and secondary education systems seem to have had a tendency to want to knock any thinking outside the box, confidence or expressiveness out of students. It was all about 'shut up' and just learning by rote.

I hope it's changed, but I wouldn't count on it.
I just think there was a very odd approach to school teaching and education here and it all seems to stem from that era being described by many posters here. It's just a kind of brutality that shouldn't be unleashed on children ever.

Akrasia

Spring Onion wrote: »

No, you can see already that most parents today are fairly blasé about religion. But the good thing is that the kids will question/research via the internet and are even more likely to pick holes in the "story". I imagine many file God alongside Santa, the Tooth Fairy, the Easter Bunny, the Bogeyman (do we do this anymore?), Kaiser Sosé and Leprechauns a lot younger than we atheists did.

Exactly.
My great grandmother believed in the faeries
My grandmother was taught about faeries as a child but now thinks faeries are daft but believes in God
My mother would never even consider believing in faeries but has a belief in 'some kind of god'
I lost my belief in God as a child and faeries have only ever been characters in childrens stories
My kids will probably think gods and faeries are just as made up as each other and would never even consider believing in them past the age of 5 years old.

Zubeneschamali

Dodd wrote: »

Sorry I seem to be writing everything here that comes to mind from when I was in care.

No worries Dodd, go ahead and write it if it helps you.

I had a very sheltered upbringing in the 70s, I never saw any sexual abuse or any real beatings, although a few whacks were nothing unusual. My Dad would have been in school in the 30s, and said some of the Brothers in his day were actual mad people - prone to going completely ape and beating the hell out of kids. But even he never hinted at all the sexual abuse that was going on, if he knew about it.

krankykitty

Cabaal wrote: »

But if kids outside of homes were dying in huge numbers...then we'd see this in the numbers, we don't.
.

Very true, i think someone posted some screenshots of a study that had the numbers that showed the death rate in the homes was greatly increased. It's just another person trying to minimise what went on in the homes. And to point fingers at the families, yes they should have a bit of the blame but in most cases they were living in a culture of fear, shame and oppression that brainwashed them into behaving that way.

krankykitty

Dodd wrote: »

Sorry I seem to be writing everything here that comes to mind from when I was in care.
I have never had an out let before and will stop now.

Thanks,bye.

Dodd please don't feel you have to stop talking here. We are here to listen if it will help you to talk about it.

Lisha

Hi Dodd,

I just wanted to say 'hi'

I don't have as bad an experience as yours but I can remember how it feels to be singled out and blamed and disliked for something they was not my fault.

It just hurts. Easier said than done I know but you are so much better than they made you think you are.
It truly was not your fault.
You are wonderful and you deserve to be happy.
Every child deserves the chance to simply 'be'
I am so sad that they robbed children of their chance to 'be' and to be happy.

I truly wish you peace.

I often think if the book 'the help' . The black house servant says to the kids in her care every day
'You are good, you are kind, you are special'
(As the mother is too selfish to appreciate the child)

Every child is good

Spring Onion

mod9maple wrote: »

Was this a CBS in the Republic? Because I went to the CBS in Newry, and brothers and lay teachers alike were still using leather straps there when I left school in 1988. I was last slapped like that in about '84-'85, but the younger lads were still getting it when I left.

Yeah it was Galway, I know brothers were still battering lads after it was banned but not so much with the leather and not so much in secondary school. But I remember getting "the leather" fairly regularly through primary school.

Cabaal

Corporal punishment was banned in 1982?, ha!

From my experience (and all my time in school was a few years after 82) neither the Nuns or Brothers cared about any ban. Also from the stories I've heard from family and relations, girls were treated far far worse then boys by nuns/teachers.

SpaceTime

Spring Onion wrote: »

Yeah it was Galway, I know brothers were still battering lads after it was banned but not so much with the leather and not so much in secondary school. But I remember getting "the leather" fairly regularly.

You'd wonder how many people may have just dropped out of education at the earliest opportunity in the past because of the brutality.

It's not something you'd volunteer to put yourself through.

Spring Onion

The cabinet are meeting today to discuss the mother and baby homes issue.
I would suggest people email some of the cabinet (Flanagan, Fitzgerald, Quinn etc) to push them for a full judicial inquiry.
It's not just Tuam. We need to get to the bottom of the following issue in all mother & baby homes throughout Ireland.
1. High mortality rate
2. Forced adoption
3. Mass graves for children with no memorial whatsoever
4. Medical trials/experiments

Going Strong

Cabaal wrote: »

Corporal punishment was banned in 1982?, ha!

From my experience (and all my time in school was a few years after 82) neither the Nuns or Brothers cared about any ban. Also from the stories I've heard from family and relations, girls were treated far far worse then boys by nuns/teachers.

I know of schools in Cork city where corporal punishment was still going on until the late 1980's. It seemed to be more a case of letting it die out gradually as those teachers who couldn't break the habit retired. The Christian Brothers seemed to be fighting a rearguard action against the ban right up until the early 1990's.

My father had a terrible time of it with the Christian Brothers in the 1940's as, being from a poor background, he was considered fair game. Nobody cared about the poor kids getting beaten black and blue - sure they were lucky to be getting any education at all. He refused to put myself or my brother through the same ordeal so we were educated in state schools. In my own experience being at school in the 1970's to early '80's, corporal punishment was the exception rather than the norm.

Bannasidhe

Obliq wrote: »

First time a tear came to my eye over this. Like, I felt that but was trying not to think about it, if you know what I mean. Well said

What is filling me with rage is not the treatment of the children. Maybe I have become so used to that due to past work that now I just shake my head and sigh. My rage grows as I read what a group of solid, respectable, men - pillars of the community and heroes of the revolution - had to say about the women and children whose welfare they were tasked with overseeing. Nothing but utter contempt. Their own interest is in keeping the costs down and protecting society from contamination from immorality. The women and children are nothing more than a problem to de dealt with - like fly tipping or dog **** on the streets.

The more I dig, the more convinced I become that what happened in Ireland was not a Rising or a Revolution. What happened was a coup. One group of elitist bastards was violently replaced by a different group of elitist bastards and business continued as usual.

Obliq

Bannasidhe wrote: »

The more I dig, the more convinced I become that what happened in Ireland was not a Rising or a Revolution. What happened was a coup. One group of elitist bastards was violently replaced by a different group of elitist bastards and business continued as usual.

Except often as not, it was the same group of elitist bastards, minus the protestants. The RC elitist bastards got a whitewash they didn't deserve.

Zubeneschamali

Bannasidhe wrote: »

One group of elitist bastards was violently replaced by a different group of elitist bastards and business continued as usual.

Don't forget that in 1937, 15 years after independence, "we" voted in a constitution which was in many ways even worse, a regressive step giving the Church even more power and influence.

I Heart Internet

Obliq wrote: »

IHI, you may have no experiences similar yourself, but your CONSTANT downplaying of the situation is insulting and demeaning to those who did. How very "christian" of you.

We were encouraged by bumper234 to share our experiences, so I did. Why is this a problem? Others are encouraged to share their stories yet when I do, I'm labelled unchristian.

Going Strong

I do think it's something that needs to be looked at though. How the church either took it upon themselves, or were encouraged to do so, to be the "Guardians of Morality and Social Control". I have plenty of anecdotal cases in my own family of the religious orders enforcing class boundaries. God help anyone deemed to be "Getting above themselves."

robindch

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

So is Paisley's group of bigots. In fact, show me any religious grouping that aren't an abomination, and you'll show me a grouping that has left religion behind.

Two points - (a) the term "bigots" is loaded and best avoided here in A+A; (b) there are plenty of groups who aren't "an abomination" and who have not left religion behind.

Tarring everybody with the same broadly unpleasant brush though - that's a typically religious habit and again, one that's best avoided in this forum. A bit of subtlety will go a long way.

Obliq wrote: »

How very "christian" of you.

No need for that kind of comment. Thanks.

Just a reminder:

robindch wrote: »

Folks, this is an emotive topic and it would be best for all, as well as best for any common or subsequent understandings that might emerge, for everybody on all sides to debate as calmly as possible.

This is not to invalidate or deny any strongly-held feelings or strongly-felt hurt, but simply a request for the debate to be as restrained as possible while respecting the reality and the bounds of what has happened to everybody, and the information that has come to light and will continue to come to light.

SpaceTime

Cabaal wrote: »

Corporal punishment was banned in 1982?, ha!

From my experience (and all my time in school was a few years after 82) neither the Nuns or Brothers cared about any ban. Also from the stories I've heard from family and relations, girls were treated far far worse then boys by nuns/teachers.

Of course they heard about the ban but they just thought that the law didn't apply to them. Seems to have been a common problem many of them had throughout the 20th century.

Cabaal

SpaceTime wrote: »

Of course they heard about the ban but they just thought that the law didn't apply to them. Seems to have been a common problem many of them had throughout the 20th century.

Still saw dusters being thrown at kids up until 1993, so seems it finally sunk in at that stage that hitting people with hands, feet or objects was no longer allowed.

As always, Ireland was behind the times.
:rolleyes:

Obliq

I Heart Internet wrote: »

We were encouraged by bumper234 to share our experiences, so I did. Why is this a problem? Others are encouraged to share their stories yet when I do, I'm labelled unchristian.

Alright, fair enough. I apologise. My reaction was based on how upset I am that there are, in fact, 100's of 1000's of people in Ireland with extremely negative experiences at the hands of (literally, for many) the same orders of priests and nuns you are always quick to defend. I am angry, but I shouldn't have directed that at you so sorry again.

Spring Onion

SpaceTime wrote: »

You'd wonder how many people may have just dropped out of education at the earliest opportunity in the past because of the brutality.

It's not something you'd volunteer to put yourself through.

A lot of lads dropped out in Intercert or after Group Cert (cant remember what that exam was all about). Maybe some dropped out because of brutality/abuse but I know some hated school and just want to go working.

Spring Onion

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Don't forget that in 1937, 15 years after independence, "we" voted in a constitution which was in many ways even worse, a regressive step giving the Church even more power and influence.

De Valera & McQuaid. Caused more harm than good in my opinion.

SpaceTime

Cabaal wrote: »

Still saw dusters being thrown at kids up until 1993, so seems it finally sunk in at that stage that hitting people with hands, feet or objects was no longer allowed.

As always, Ireland was behind the times.
:rolleyes:

The UK was actually a big fan of it too. Corporal punishment was still legal into the 21st century in private schools and it's legal in some (mostly southern) US states (unsurprisingly).

SpaceTime

Spring Onion wrote: »

De Valera & McQuaid. Caused more harm than good in my opinion.

Bear in mind the constitution was presented as a finished document. People didn't debate it they just voted yes or no.

It's very much reflective of 1930s Ireland though and I honestly think the constitutional convention hasn't gone far enough to modernise it.

It's not at all reflective of 21st century Ireland.

Dades

I went to a Holy Ghost school and some of the priests were both great men and great teachers. At worst some were a bit doddery and fond of the gargle. I got the strap a couple of times in the earlier years, but by no means was it wielded as weapon of terror and I never saw it used past the early 80s.

I was also an altar boy at a local Franciscan place and a bunch of gentler folk you could not meet.

Like lay people, there's good ones and bad ones. It's the organisation that allows the bad ones to thrive and poison society with its greed, hand-wringing and piety that should be in the dock. Along with the State and any actual perpetrators.