Mass unmarked grave for 800 babies in Tuam

Obliq

bumper234 wrote: »

It's been a long day so am not sure if you're being sarcastic or not.

:pac: Sarcastic for sure.

bumper234

Obliq wrote: »

:pac: Sarcastic for sure.

There's days in here you can never be to sure

iguana

Sorry, that was very much sarcasm. Sparked off by all the posts and comments about how babies need to be baptised as it's good for them to have moral guidance in life. And that religious patronage of schools is a good thing because of the moral guidelines it helps give children. Like the non-religious are immoral people incapable of ever even wanting to do anything for others because we need religion to tell us to be good.

LostinKildare

Poking around in the history of the county I found two stories that might be of interest here.

Strictly speaking, they are a wee bit off-topic because they deal with the period before the civil war, but they tell us a lot about attitudes to child welfare and also the treatment of "fallen women."

The first is a long article (in 3 parts) about the scandal of the Caragh Orphanage in the 1870s-1890s. The orphanage was established and run by an incorrigible Protestant reverend and his wife. Children were abused --- chained together, or to a log which they had to drag, to "keep them from running away" --- and neglected to the point of death. It is sadly familiar stuff, but what is different from what happened 50 years later is how the state authorities dealt with it --- they were pretty swift in convicting and fining and even imprisoning him (several times, since they kept monitoring him) --- and also in the condemnation from the public. It was widely covered in the newspapers, and when the police brought him to the train station in Sallins to return him to Mountjoy after his final conviction, a large crowd gathered to heckle him.

http://www.kildare.ie/library/ehistory/2008/06/the_caragh_orphanage_a_scandal.asp
http://www.kildare.ie/library/ehistory/2008/06/the_caragh_orphanage_a_scandal_1.asp
http://www.kildare.ie/library/ehistory/2008/06/the_caragh_orphanage_a_scandal_2.asp


The other story is a much shorter piece, "Stoning the Desolate," by Charles Dickens (yes THE Charles Dickens), who wrote very beautifully and movingly about the plight of the so-called Wrens of the Curragh in the mid-1800s. These were camp followers who lived miserable lives exposed to the elements or in "nests" in the gorse on the Curragh. They were horribly abused by the townspeople of Newbridge. It is definitely worth a read, to see how rare was compassion for fallen women in Ireland.
http://www.kildare.ie/library/ehistory/2012/02/stoning_the_desolate.asp

An small extract:

In the summer of forty five, a priest, meeting one of the women in the main street of Newbridge, there threw her down, tearing from off her back the thin shawl and gown that covered it, and with his heavy riding-whip so flogged her over the bare shoulders that the blood actually spirited over his boots. She all the time never resisted, but was only crying piteously for mercy. Of the crowd which was formed round the scene, not a man nor a woman interfered by word or action. When it was over, not one said of the miserable soul, "God help her." Five days afterwards I saw this girl, and her back then was still so raw that she could not bear to wear a frock over it. Yet when she told me how it was done, and who did it, she never uttered a hard word against the ruffian who had treated her so brutally. Had any person attacked a brute beast as savagely in England, as the priest had here treated this least of God's creatures, the strong arm of the law would have been stretched out between him and his victim. Yet in Newbridge there was not even an Irishman man enough to take the law in his own hands, by seizing the whip from the priest and giving him on his own skin a lesson of mercy. For it was in Ireland, where even now inhumanity of this sort is encouraged; where dealers consider it a part of religion not to supply these outcasts with the common necessaries of life; where the man who would allow one of them to crawl into his barn or cowshed to lie down and die, would be denounced from the altar, and be ordered to do penance for his charity.

ScumLord

iguana wrote: »

Sorry, that was very much sarcasm. Sparked off by all the posts and comments about how babies need to be baptised as it's good for them to have moral guidance in life. And that religious patronage of schools is a good thing because of the moral guidelines it helps give children. Like the non-religious are immoral people incapable of ever even wanting to do anything for others because we need religion to tell us to be good.

Opps, I try to keep my internet rage under control but sometimes it just gets the better of me. Just wasn't paying attention, sorry.

Firedance

LostinKildare wrote: »

The other story is a much shorter piece, "Stoning the Desolate," by Charles Dickens (yes THE Charles Dickens), who wrote very beautifully and movingly about the plight of the so-called Wrens of the Curragh in the mid-1800s. These were camp followers who lived miserable lives exposed to the elements or in "nests" in the gorse on the Curragh. They were horribly abused by the townspeople of Newbridge. It is definitely worth a read, to see how rare was compassion for fallen women in Ireland.
http://www.kildare.ie/library/ehistory/2012/02/stoning_the_desolate.asp

An small extract:

I will read those links more thoroughly later but to me that extract sums up how the women in these homes were also treated & seen all those years later. (the magdeline laundries too) I am swinging from tears to outrage with all of this, its so awful but we have to somehow make sure its not swept under the carpet again. For me some of the most shocking discoveries are that all this was discussed in the Dail at various stages since the 30's but once the moral outrage subsided nothing was done. I really hope that is not the case this time.

lazygal

The recent comments on pregnant women during the x case legislation showed attitudes towards women in Ireland are backward as ever. I've still moments of rage about what politicians and commentators said about me as someone who was pregnant at the time.

abaddon_ire

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Tuam is the 34th child mass grave site linked this week to the Catholic Church.

Pope Francis was being prosecuted by the International Common Law Court of Justice (ICLCJ) in Brussels for allegedly trafficking 300,000 children of political prisoners through Vatican Catholic Charities during Argentine’s Dirty War.

Last year’s ICLCJ prosecution concerned 50,000 missing native Canadian children. There have been 32 child mass grave sites uncovered so far in Canada, most of them on Catholic-run native residential school grounds.

The Vatican, British Crown and Canadian government have refused excavation of the 32 Canadian mass grave sites believed filled with native children. Before licensed archeologists were turned away, human remains of children were uncovered at the larger sites in Brantford Ontario and Port Alberni British Columbia Canada.

As of November 2013 over ten million Catholic Priest child sex abuse cases have been documented.

Wasting your time with that. ICLCJ is a crackpot outfit and beforeitsnews is a crank website.

abaddon_ire

Spring Onion wrote: »

PM REDACTED

I have signed the petition under my full name and credentials, which can be verified. I have encouraged anyone I know to do so.

I am sick to death of the catholic church getting away with this crap. I have seen this crap happen, but luckily was not a victim. I learned to play the game from early on in my life, and the appearance of obedience was more important than actual obedience.

However, linking blatant lunatic sites and articles known to be written by cynical exploiters does not help and should be avoided at all costs, because it becomes easy then to paint anyone who raises a voice as part of the lunatic fringe.

Perhaps I should elaborate that in a further post.

I also have some hours during the business day in Dublin due to the nature of what I do and am willing to volunteer those towards the effort of exposing the bastages.

Sorry, I tried to avoid expletives, but it's difficult when it comes to the RCC.

My point is that linking known baloney sites and articles by Judy Byington simples gains you the patina of lunatic fringe, and you may be sure the RCC will exploit that.

Had to snip urls, 50 posts and all that. Sorry.

Spring Onion

abaddon_ire wrote: »

I ...

I am confused, why is there a quote under my name in your post above saying "PM REDACTED"? They're not my words.

Brian Shanahan

robindch wrote: »

I've just heard indications that Frances Fitzgerald, Minster for Justice and Equality, will accept this petition tomorrow morning at the Ministry building in advance of the Dail debate.

For anybody who's signed it, thanks. For anybody who hasn't, get going! And everybody, please share as much as you can on social media.

Thanks for your help on this one folks. I think A+A might have made a worthwhile difference here.

https://secure.avaaz.org/en/petition/Frances_Fitzgerald_Irish_Minister_for_Justice_and_Equality_A_full_Gardai_investigation_into_the_mass_grave_in_Tuam_Co_Ga/

I truly hope so. I signed the petition on the first day and facebooked it as a matter of course. And three hours later as the issue was affecting me (making me angry basically), I decided to publicise it on three other discussion fora, so hopefully I got a few more signatures on it.

Edit: 27,000+ signatures. For everybody who publicised this, good job.

Flippyfloppy

LostinKildare wrote: »

Poking around in the history of the county I found two stories that might be of interest here.

Strictly speaking, they are a wee bit off-topic because they deal with the period before the civil war, but they tell us a lot about attitudes to child welfare and also the treatment of "fallen women."

The first is a long article (in 3 parts) about the scandal of the Caragh Orphanage in the 1870s-1890s. The orphanage was established and run by an incorrigible Protestant reverend and his wife. Children were abused --- chained together, or to a log which they had to drag, to "keep them from running away" --- and neglected to the point of death. It is sadly familiar stuff, but what is different from what happened 50 years later is how the state authorities dealt with it --- they were pretty swift in convicting and fining and even imprisoning him (several times, since they kept monitoring him) --- and also in the condemnation from the public. It was widely covered in the newspapers, and when the police brought him to the train station in Sallins to return him to Mountjoy after his final conviction, a large crowd gathered to heckle him.

http://www.kildare.ie/library/ehistory/2008/06/the_caragh_orphanage_a_scandal.asp
http://www.kildare.ie/library/ehistory/2008/06/the_caragh_orphanage_a_scandal_1.asp
http://www.kildare.ie/library/ehistory/2008/06/the_caragh_orphanage_a_scandal_2.asp


The other story is a much shorter piece, "Stoning the Desolate," by Charles Dickens (yes THE Charles Dickens), who wrote very beautifully and movingly about the plight of the so-called Wrens of the Curragh in the mid-1800s. These were camp followers who lived miserable lives exposed to the elements or in "nests" in the gorse on the Curragh. They were horribly abused by the townspeople of Newbridge. It is definitely worth a read, to see how rare was compassion for fallen women in Ireland.
http://www.kildare.ie/library/ehistory/2012/02/stoning_the_desolate.asp

An small extract:

Thanks for the info! I can't help but wonder if the public hated this guy so much because it was a Protestant doing it!! Taking their land, hurting some of their own!! Plus the Nuns seem to have kept it all under wraps, noone really seemed to know what they were at.

Flippyfloppy

I forgot to say, a local politician, Emmet Stagg got back to me the other day. (I emailed four locals and he was the only one to read/ take time out to respond.) He signed the petition and also mentioned his own family had a history with similar, which I won't go into on here. Anyway fair dues to him!!!

abaddon_ire

Spring Onion wrote: »

I am confused, why is there a quote under my name in your post above saying "PM REDACTED"? They're not my words.

My bad, I meant msg. It's post 1 in this thread. I'm just late to the game and have to snip links. And before you ask, yes I have read it all as a lurker. But when should we cease to lurk?

Cabaal

Flippyfloppy wrote: »

Thanks for the info! I can't help but wonder if the public hated this guy so much because it was a Protestant doing it!!

Thats alot to do with it I'd imagine,

Even when the nuns sold off baby's to American's they would not sell any to protestants, this was even one of the biggest worry's for Archbishop McQuaid and his advisor who actually suspended the "adoptions" for sometime because of it.

The solution?

The American's had to fulfill a number of obligations/requirements to prove that they were catholic and that they would agree to raise the child in the catholic faith....right upto and including to agreeing that the child would only attend a catholic university!

All they ever cared about was what religion the people were, it didn't matter if they were good, suitable people.

you only live once

iguana wrote: »

You are mistaken there. People need religion for ethical and moral guidance, atheists can't do anything worthwhile or good.

Im an atheist and I am currently volunteering with three different charities but Im not doing anything good?
I was raised catholic but I saw through the sadistic and immoral contradictions a very long time ago.
Think its a bit unfair to say atheists can't do anything good.. I haven't seen any catholics do a whole pile of good other then convince people they are going to hell if they don't worship, forbid gay people to express themselves, let women believe they don't have a choice with regards to abortion, shunned people from society if they were considered to be an "illegitimate child", frowned upon essentially anyone who didn't buy into their money making power trip making them social outcasts. Lies, secrets and wrongdoing.

Cabaal

you only live once wrote: »

Im an atheist and I am currently volunteering with three different charities but Im not doing anything good?
I was raised catholic but I saw through the sadistic and immoral contradictions a very long time ago.
Think its a bit unfair to say atheists can't do anything good.. I haven't seen any catholics do a whole pile of good other then convince people they are going to hell if they don't worship, forbid gay people to express themselves, let women believe they don't have a choice with regards to abortion, shunned people from society if they were considered to be an "illegitimate child", frowned upon essentially anyone who didn't buy into their money making power trip making them social outcasts. Lies, secrets and wrongdoing.

Its ok, he was being sarcastic when he said what he said,

However, what he said has been said by many religious people over the years so many people think religion = morals.

Spring Onion

Cabaal wrote: »

All they ever cared about was what religion the people were, it didn't matter if they were good, suitable people.

You forgot about the money, they cared about the money.

you only live once

Cabaal wrote: »

Its ok, he was being sarcastic when he said what he said,

However, what he said has been said by many religious people over the years so many people think religion = morals.

Religion in some cases = lack of morals in my opinion, however unlike religion I accept my opinion as merely an opinion on they way things are, the way things should be yada yada...

Glad that was sarcasm, it angered me ever so slightly.

abaddon_ire

Judy Byington:

Even Dr. Phil, the epitome of selling your soul for ratings, couldn't stick her. Most revealing that she contracted the schizophrenic victim of her book, 22 faces of bovine excrement, so that the victim recieved none of the proceeds. None. And what is the title of her article? "350,800 victims" and proceeds to attempt to justify that number as being a total including figures from all over the world. Not the careful use of "800"

Want to see Judy's buffoonery exposed? http (colon slash slash)forums (dot) randi (dot) org (slash) showthread.php?t=246185

International Common Law Court of Justice. What a peach. A bunch of buffons who have not legal standing anywhere. They just picked the name to pretend a veneer of credibility. Just last April 5 they despatched 2 "sherriffs" to arrest Queen Elizabeth. Because she is really a crocodile, or something.

beforeitsreal? Go to beforeitsreal (dot) com home page. Aliens(no), vaccines kill you(lie), dark side of the moon(doesn't exist), in fact every flavour of baloney you could imagine. No thanks very much.

you only live once

Spring Onion wrote: »

You forgot about the money, they cared about the money.

One never forgot about the money always wondered as a kid, who got all those handsome ten euro notes that were fired into the collection baskets, perhaps I should have held onto what little cents I had.

Zubeneschamali

Cabaal wrote: »

All they ever cared about was what religion the people were, it didn't matter if they were good, suitable people.

This all follows from the idea that this life is just a brief (and unpleasant) driving test before you get your license, wings and harp at the Pearly Gates.

People who really believe this corrosive idea really don't care if everyone lives a miserable life and dies young, as long as they get into Heaven.

(Not to say the Bishops believed it - their nice houses, servants etc. etc. don't really line up)

Spring Onion

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

This all follows from the idea that this life is just a brief (and unpleasant) driving test before you get your license, wings and harp at the Pearly Gates.

People who really believe this corrosive idea really don't care if everyone lives a miserable life and dies young, as long as they get into Heaven.

(Not to say the Bishops believed it - their nice houses, servants etc. etc. don't really line up)

I often wonder - did the bishops, priests, nuns or brothers believe a word of the new testament? If they did, they must have know they were in big trouble at the pearly gates for the cruelty and torture they inflicted on people and children.

What did Jesus say?
"If anyone causes one of these little ones-those who believe in me-to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea."

I Heart Internet

Spring Onion wrote: »

I often wonder - did the bishops, priests, nuns or brothers believe a word of the new testament? If they did, they must have know they were in big trouble at the pearly gates for the cruelty and torture they inflicted on them.

What did Jesus say?
"If anyone causes one of these little ones-those who believe in me-to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea."

Some of them perverted the New Testament message and ended up patting themselves on the back for "loving" their neighbours with a big stick.

Others just failed and knew they were failing but went along with the state-of-play at the time.

Cabaal

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

This all follows from the idea that this life is just a brief (and unpleasant) driving test before you get your license, wings and harp at the Pearly Gates.

People who really believe this corrosive idea really don't care if everyone lives a miserable life and dies young, as long as they get into Heaven.

(Not to say the Bishops believed it - their nice houses, servants etc. etc. don't really line up)

I agree, this viewpoint is a very dangerous one as it leads people to not give a crap about things,

From the extreme belief that its ok to blow yourself up as you'll go to heaven, to the every day where its ok to not give a **** about the environment or your fellow man/women as you'll be moving onto something better,.

In many respects this view was a helpful view for the Jews to have when the Roman's ruled, it allowed them to treat them like crap and they put up with it...ideal really.

abaddon_ire

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

This all follows from the idea that this life is just a brief (and unpleasant) driving test before you get your license, wings and harp at the Pearly Gates.

People who really believe this corrosive idea really don't care if everyone lives a miserable life and dies young, as long as they get into Heaven.

(Not to say the Bishops believed it - their nice houses, servants etc. etc. don't really line up)

It's worse. It's intentionally hypocritical.

My very ex wife is a primary school teacher. I asked her once why exactly she spent so much time going to out of hours prayer meetings with the nuns and priests and so forth? Especially when you don't believe a word of it?

Her answer: Because that's how you get a career. Being well got is essential.

Me: So it doesn't matter if your good or not?

Her: No. It only matters how much you suck up to them. If you don't, you will never progress.

Fairly obvious why she is an ex-wife.

krankykitty

Obliq and Bannasidhe, can I ask a really stupid question and enquire of you how you are researching the lads that were identified on that committee? Is it all internet based or are you going in to look at records somewhere? I would love to help but need a bit of guidance

abaddon_ire

She is not anti abortion at all, but to this day supports the church stance.

She is not anti contraception, but supports the churches stance.

For Tuam, well that was some abberrent individual.

And so forth.

Any excuse to support your carreer.

But this is not in some distant past, this is today.

Gordon

This thread is really revealing a lot more to me about people's life experiences in Ireland. I've grown up and lived/worked in a number of countries: UAE, Greece, UK, US as well as Ireland and Ireland was the one place that had some real deep rooted sociological issues bubbling in the shadows. The only friends/acquaintances of mine who have confided in me about child abuse are Irish. Obviously that's not a great sample size, and I could know many others not revealing abuse, naturally. But I've always felt a greater emotional history when living in Ireland compared to other countries, I'm understanding the reasons a lot more now.

LostinKildare

Flippyfloppy wrote: »

Thanks for the info! I can't help but wonder if the public hated this guy so much because it was a Protestant doing it!! Taking their land, hurting some of their own!

True, but it seems he was hated by everyone.

One of his defending barristers was Edward Carson (who BTW a couple of years later destroyed Oscar Wilde while defending the Marquess of Queensbury in the libel case brought by Wilde; later he was a major Ulster Unionist leader). Anyway, in one of the child abuse trials of Rev. Cotton, this time heard in Carlow, Carson tried (and failed) to get an adjournment on the grounds that

(a) his client had insufficient time to prepare a defence and (b) witnesses for the defence were not available and (c) there were too many Protestants among the jury. This latter point was based on the fact that the Lord Primate had written a letter to the Evening Telegraph some months previously condemning Cotton in the strongest possible terms and so, it could be argued, Protestant jurors would more likely be influenced by their own Primate than would Catholics.

I hate to say it but you have to wonder if this was also a factor: did he think a more heavily Catholic jury would be less likely to convict because they were thought to be less condemning of child abuse? The judge was Catholic. The historian writes:

Mr Justice Murphy charged the jury in a manner that could only have instilled, in at least some of them, doubts as to the Cottons guilt. It was as if the judge was bending over backwards trying to ensure that no charge of sectarianism could be laid upon a Catholic judge presiding over a court where a Protestant Clergyman was being tried for serious crimes.

This resulted in a hung jury; Cotton was retried in Belfast then, and convicted, fined, and jailed.

Flippyfloppy wrote: »

Plus the Nuns seem to have kept it all under wraps, noone really seemed to know what they were at.

Indeed, but how hard was anyone looking? What particularly strikes me about this story is the vivid descriptions of the numerous surprise raids on the orphanage by the authorities --- can you imagine the gardai bursting into mother and baby homes while the nuns try to lock them out? Initial complaints against the place were made to the brand-new Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children, based in Liverpool, which then asked the local constabulatory to sort it, which they promptly did. England at the time was churning with do-gooders concerned for the welfare of children, inspired in no small part by the novels of Mr. Dickens. We lost the benefit of their help shortly after, and instead we got a gardai under the thumb of brutes like the priest beating the woman on the main street of Newbridge.