Mass unmarked grave for 800 babies in Tuam

abaddon_ire

Doctor DooM wrote: »

Am I reading this right? They left kids to die?!?

Yup, but it was holy, so that made it OK.

abaddon_ire

abaddon_ire wrote: »

Yup, but it was holy, so that made it OK.

After all we just had a bishop saying so, in fact claiming the he didn't know it was illegal. Convincing? Right?

abaddon_ire

He wouldn't have covered it up if he had any thought it was illegal, right?

Dades

abaddon_ire, try to use the multi quote function if you're going to respond to more than one post, and try keep all your comments in one post at a time.

Thanking you!

Elektronske

This country is a joke, it always was, it always will be, a parasites paradise, and it will never change. The scum of Ireland just move into new pastures to parasite again. I wonder when will a proper investigation into the recent financial, banking, developer and political corruption start ? - 50 years on as well no doubt, 50 years after countless lives have already been destroyed, and 50 years too late again.

Red Pepper

Watching the news there and I cant understand why the nuns have "hidden" the bodies. One lady has been asking where her baby's body is for 30+ years and they wont tell her. Why not? Are they just being cruel/arrogant or do they not know?

Either way, this inquiry I believe will seal the fate of this rotten organisation. The next step (and there will be opposition) is to get all these reports (Ryan, Murphy, Mother&Baby) into the school curriculum so that our kids can see through these charlatans.

bumper234

Red Pepper wrote: »

Watching the news there and I cant understand why the nuns have "hidden" the bodies. One lady has been asking where her baby's body is for 30+ years and they wont tell her. Why not? Are they just being cruel/arrogant or do they not know?

I would go with cruel.

kylith

bumper234 wrote: »

I would go with cruel.

I'd say they don't know. The best they could probably do is to bring you to a field and say 'around here somewhere'.

yellowlabrador

Gordon wrote: »

This thread is really revealing a lot more to me about people's life experiences in Ireland. I've grown up and lived/worked in a number of countries: UAE, Greece, UK, US as well as Ireland and Ireland was the one place that had some real deep rooted sociological issues bubbling in the shadows. The only friends/acquaintances of mine who have confided in me about child abuse are Irish. Obviously that's not a great sample size, and I could know many others not revealing abuse, naturally. But I've always felt a greater emotional history when living in Ireland compared to other countries, I'm understanding the reasons a lot more now.

I was in UAE in the late 70's, early 80's and believe me, there's quite a story to tell about child abuse and mistreatment of women. I left because I couldn't take no more. It was in the days before the massive developments and not many European expats, I was there to help look after my younger siblings and as my dad's pa. At the time I was the only single European girl in Abu Dhabi and was friends with the local younger crowd. Child brides, abandoned babies, slavery, concubines were very common. Some of the stories are horrifying and although I've been invited for a holiday, I won't go back. I also remember the shanty towns on Abu Dhabi Island and the Dickensian conditions where girls and women used to disappear.

Gordon

We were there at the same time then. But you'll be closer to that reality than mine as I was quite young and more hidden away in the expat world. Of course I'm not saying that there's more abuse in Ireland than anywhere else, that would be silly. But we all form strong opinions due to personal experience.

Dodd

When I first went to the home after some time they tested me to see if I was a retard (that was the word in the day)because I did not speak or just mumbled. Turned out I was fine but didn't want to talk to anyone.
Understandable if knew where I came from.
Taken from my Mum to a new home while on the way to the beach.?

This is from records I got from the home

Oh and the home did get burned down and most records in the late 70s early 80s.

Hotblack Desiato

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Add to your list

No birthright
A study of the Irish unmarried mother and her child : The Irish Times articles : An inquiry
by Michael Viney.
Published 1964 by [The Irish Times] in [Dublin] .

It was published in a booklet and used by the Sociology Dept in UCD so there should be a few copies knocking about the place.

Republished yesterday here
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/no-birthright-a-study-of-the-unmarried-mother-and-her-child-1.1827186

nagirrac

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Ken Nicholls - a world renowned historian - investigated the blowing up of the archives in the Four Courts in 1922. The guy who set the charges was an explosions expert. Ken has concluded it was no 'accident'

The "rebels" were the one's inside the Four Courts though, what would have been their motivation to destroy all those records? The Free State were guaranteed victory equipped with British supplied artillery and explosives (used particularly efficiently in Kerry). My theory is that Free State officers had it burned after Republicans were flushed to destroy evidence of collusion. Dublin castle must have been full to the rafters of evidence from informers.

nagirrac

Bannasidhe wrote: »

It is an Irish solution to preventing the problem of the truth emerging.

I wonder who they learned that from?
As you said, one lot of elitist bolloxes replaced by another lot who were not long learning the tools of the trade.
Thanks for seeking the truth

diveout

nagirrac wrote: »

I wonder who they learned that from?
As you said, one lot of elitist bolloxes replaced by another lot who were not long learning the tools of the trade.
Thanks for seeking the truth

They learned that from themselves. This country is addicted to denial top to bottom.

Paulownia

This country was run by conservative catholic fainne wearing civil servants, self riteous and empowered by church and state since 1922.
We replaced the Brits with the church. I know, I was born in 1953.
Now we are in an era of being run by civil servants whose agenda is more self serving, I wonder which is better?
Noel Browne amongst others, saw the light and was beaten down by them and his fellow politicians. What chance did those mothers and children have of reasonable treatment. The Protestant home in Rathgar was denied state funding at all until they agreed not to accept catholic women there as they were supposed to be converting the women. Many catholic women chose to go there rather than to catholic institutions.

bumper234

Reply from Joe Higgins

From: "Joe Higgins" <Joe.Higgins@oireachtas.ie>
Date: 10 Jun 2014 17:15
Subject: Re: Tuam Babies
To: Bumper234
Cc:

Dear Bumper,

Thank you for your email regarding the Mother and Baby homes in Tuam and elsewhere and the lack of a Garda investigation.

This scandal exposes the attitude that the State and Church authorities had towards women and children over much of the 20th century. Today's political leaders have also been shown to be behind the attitudes of society on these issues. The government were dragged into establishing an inquiry into the level of deaths in Mother and Baby homes. One government minister even called the reports as sensationalist and that the women had 'got themselves into trouble' and it was families that forced them into the homes, in other words the Church and the State are free of guilt.

Ruth Coppinger TD plans to speak in the Dáil on this tonight or tomorrow night. Below is a press statement that the Socialist Party issued today. We call on a complete separation of Church and State and an end to religious orders running public services.

Kind Regards,

Oisín Kelly
Dáil Assistant to Joe Higgins TD
Tel: 01 6183370
joe.higgins@oireachtas.ie

Press Statement- 10th June 2014

Religious orders have forfeited their rights to run public services.

• The 796 babies who perished in the care of the church and state deserve a full unbiased public enquiry

• Once again the cruel face of the Catholic Church and its role in shaming and controlling people’s lives is gruesomely exposed.

• The state cannot wash their hands of their responsibilities

Join the ‘Justice for the Tuam Babies’ march on 11th June 2014 starting at 7pm from the Department of Justice.

Following the news that emerged during the last few days on the Tuam (Co Galway) mass grave, Socialist Party TD, Ruth Coppinger commented:

‘Some, including the Minister for Justice, talk of the need to “consider the context of time”. What about considering the children and their mothers and the lives they were forced to live? What about the numerous accounts by locals who describe the children as malnourished, or the local health board inspection report (April 1944) which clearly stated that the Bon Secours Home babies and mothers were “emaciated, fragile, flesh hanging loosely on the limbs”?’

The fact that the times were different then does not mean that this silence should be perpetuated. A full unbiased public enquiry in necessary first of all for the Tuam babies and then for all mother-baby homes operated over the years by the Catholic Church. The records must be handed over immediately. The state's practice of privatising or leasing people’s care to other agencies and denominations needs to be stopped, Religious orders have forfeited their rights to run public services’.

Flippyfloppy

bumper234 wrote: »

Reply from Joe Higgins

Jeez. Maybe we got the wrong impression from the Nazis huh. It was actually in the past!![sarcasm font]

Seriously if this very similar kind of thing wasn't deemed acceptable when it was happening in concentration camps why has our minister for justice condoned it?? I'll tell you why : Because it's still so bloody ingrained in our culture! I can see bits of it in the older members of my family and the way they were and I'm sure I'm not the only one!

bumper234, could you ask Higgins for the name of that TD please (re: 'got themselves into trouble') ?

It should be publicly available anyway, but I'd be interested in knowing who in 2014 actually believes that nonsense.

bumper234

Deleted User wrote: »

bumper234, could you ask Higgins for the name of that TD please (re: 'got themselves into trouble') ?

It should be publicly available anyway, but I'd be interested in knowing who in 2014 actually believes that nonsense.

Am not in personal contact with him I just mass emailed every member of the Dail. His email address is there in the post, everyone should email them all and keep pressure on.

Going Strong

Deleted User wrote: »

bumper234, could you ask Higgins for the name of that TD please (re: 'got themselves into trouble') ?

It should be publicly available anyway, but I'd be interested in knowing who in 2014 actually believes that nonsense.

I think Joe Higgins is being a bit naughty there. Ruairi Quinn mentioned "sensationalist" and "got themselves into trouble" but in a different context to the way Joe lays it out.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/some-reporting-on-tuam-story-mistaken-1.1825782

Mr Quinn told RTÉ’s Morning Ireland programme he felt it was important to show this generation of Irish people what those who came before them did to “young women who got into trouble, so to speak”.
“They didn’t get into trouble on their own [when they became pregnant],” he said, adding that many had their children taken away.


And

Mr Quinn said there was a suggestion in an Australian newspaper that 850 skeletons of young children were found on the site of the former mother and baby home in Tuam. He described the assertion as “sensationalism” and said it was different to the facts that are known.


A bit of selective quoting by Joe Higgins as you can see.

Akrasia

This week's Clare People newspaper exposes the high infant mortality at the Kilrush nursery or 'auxiliary home'

This was an institution run by Sisters of Mercy
The article is not available for free online but here are some exerpts

CLARE’S hidden history over the
shameful treatment of unmarried
mothers and their children has been
put under the microscope this week
following the revelation that there
may be up 141 babies buried in or
near the grounds of the former County
Nursery in Kilrush....
.... “From April 1922 to September
1926, 321 women were admitted to
the institution and 180 were born,”
the board revealed, which translates
into only 180 children surviving 321
pregnancies.....
...
Where Kilrush is concerned, just
look at this paragraph in a report
from the Clare Board on Health in
early 1927: “From April 1922 to
September 1926, 321 women were
admitted to the institution and 180
children were born.”
Those statistics are alarming because
they have to be measured
against the infant mortality rates of
the time, which ran at 70 per 1,000,
which is seven per cent.

Going Strong

Going Strong wrote: »

-massive clarification -

A bit of selective quoting by Joe Higgins as you can see.

Thanks for that, I misread the e-mail and thought that the sentence was used in a Parliamentary discussion.

Joe's been a little bit misleading there alright.

Firedance

Deleted User wrote: »

Thanks for that, I misread the e-mail and thought that the sentence was used in a Parliamentary discussion.

Joe's been a little bit misleading there alright.

Ruairi Quinn was interviewed on the 6 One the night before last and his comments were very much along the lines of 'their families put the in there' 'its not something that's anti catholic or anything that the nuns did wrong' I actually emailed him on the back of that interview as I found his comments very offensive. The quotes from the IT are different though.

Elektronske

What has happened to ho chi quinn ?

Why is he speaking instead of minister for health and health boards, and the minister for environment ( county councils), galway county council were funding and supervising.

Why is prime minister and president not speaking out enough ?

I Heart Internet

Deleted User wrote: »

bumper234, could you ask Higgins for the name of that TD please (re: 'got themselves into trouble') ?

It should be publicly available anyway, but I'd be interested in knowing who in 2014 actually believes that nonsense.

I believe this was Minister Quinn. Although he said it with a noticable "in quotation marks" tone to his voice. He was simply pointing to the parlance at the time.

Higgins is just trying to score cheap points by suggesting that Quinn used the phrase as anything other than a relic of the times. I thought he was a bit better than that.

I Heart Internet

Firedance wrote: »

Ruairi Quinn was interviewed on the 6 One the night before last and his comments were very much along the lines of 'their families put the in there' 'its not something that's anti catholic or anything that the nuns did wrong' I actually emailed him on the back of that interview as I found his comments very offensive. The quotes from the IT are different though.

I don't recall him saying the highlighted part.

He called for a calm, clear investigation and less of the sensationalist headlines.

diveout

Firedance wrote: »

Ruairi Quinn was interviewed on the 6 One the night before last and his comments were very much along the lines of 'their families put the in there' 'its not something that's anti catholic or anything that the nuns did wrong' I actually emailed him on the back of that interview as I found his comments very offensive. The quotes from the IT are different though.

There was certainly mutual collusion in a lot of cases. That has to be acknowledged.

pauldla

diveout wrote: »

There was certainly mutual collusion in a lot of cases. That has to be acknowledged.

Indeed, and I don't think that is being denied. I'd have to ask from where came the ethos that formed the attitudes that enabled the laundries, mother and child homes, etc, and the State that (nominally) oversaw them.

May I say in passing that I admire and appreciate the sterling work being performed by our historians.

Brian Shanahan

Paulownia wrote: »

Now we are in an era of being run by civil servants whose agenda is more self serving, I wonder which is better?

We'd be so lucky for that to happen. The true governance model of this country (and pretty much any country in the world) is, "government for the rich, by the rich and through the rich".

De-regulation, de-nationalisation, outsourcing, demonisation of the other and a total self-serving disregard for what the economic model is doing to people and the environment are the symptoms we are suffering, and they point to a disease whose motto was espoused by Gordon Gekko, "greed is good".

Oh and in case you're wondering, the more I see of the economic system, the more I am coming to the conclusion that crashes like what happened in 2008, and what will happen in another few years (an economy which is keeping afloat on ordinary people getting indebted for everyday necessities and the rich getting richer off free money thrown at them by governments is on the edge of a precipice) are built in to keep the top on top and the rest of us scrambling in the dirt for scraps, and not the blip everybody keeps trying to persuade us they are.