Mass unmarked grave for 800 babies in Tuam

Firedance

I Heart Internet wrote: »

I don't recall him saying the highlighted part.

He called for a calm, clear investigation and less of the sensationalist headlines.

watch the 6 one news for the night before last, I can assure you he said exactly that. The interview he gave may not have been shown in full but unfortunately the segment shown on the news did not show him in a good light.

Prime Time - The Secret Baby Trail

Some of RTÉ's Prime Time episodes regarding the Homes, Adoption Process and Medical Trials have been made available again

Prime Time - The Secret Baby Trail wrote:

http://www.rte.ie/player/gb/show/10291719/
This programme uncovered the export of Irish children in Mother and Baby homes to adoptive parents in America. The programme talks to mothers whose children were taken from them, to the children who grew up in the US, and to nuns as well. First broadcast: 20/06/1996

worth watching - in particular regarding the donations and request for money.

At the same time, do bear in mind that the Nun in the video says that in their records they could find no mention of fees, and no receipts.

Prime Time - Anatomy of a Scandal wrote:

http://www.rte.ie/player/gb/show/10291533/
In the wake of recent events Prime Time rebroadcasts its 2011 award winning programme which uncovered the use of infants in Mother and Baby homes for medical research in the post war race to modify vaccines for polio, diphtheria, tetanus and measles. During the making of the programme the journalists also discovered that the remains of hundreds of infants who died in these homes had been sent for anatomical dissection, without parental consent, until the 1960s.

Prime Time wrote:

http://www.rte.ie/player/gb/show/10290343/
Tuam mother and baby home and Medical Council complaints

Prime Time: Bethany - The Home the State Forgot wrote:

http://www.rte.ie/player/gb/show/10291722/
The RTÉ Investigations Unit reports on Bethany Home, a protestant run Mother and Baby home. 135 children died in less than 10 years while in the care of the Bethany Home in the middle of the last century.

Paulownia

I actually met an american man who was homed from a Dublin mother and baby home with a couple in Boston of Irish origin. he was in Ireland looking for his natural family without much help from the home. He told me that once when he had a row as a teenager with his adoptive parents his father had said to him '' we did want you, we paid $3000 for you !''
Now it must be said that he was lucky he had a happy childhood and was a well adjusted adult, and his attitude was that he was probably lucky to have been flogged off by the nuns. It must have been common practice at the time and was apparently orchestrated by the church in America who acted as an introduction service for people who wanted to adopt

Going Strong

The frightening part is the comments about "Babies from Mother & Baby homes who were adopted by couples in the USA who were refused by state adoption agencies." Why were they refused? Nice to see the nuns had much, err, higher standards of course.

Tusla has Tuam's records. They are yet to be digitized, but will be made available to the Enquiry. This is very important.

http://www.newstalk.ie/EXCLUSIVE:-Hundreds-of-children-in-homes-were-used-for-scientific-experiments

Neyite

Going Strong wrote: »

The frightening part is the comments about "Babies from Mother & Baby homes who were adopted by couples in the USA who were refused by state adoption agencies." Why were they refused? Nice to see the nuns had much, err, higher standards of course.

The adoption criteria that the nuns adhered to was formulated by Archbishop McQuaid, whose sole objective, far beyond suitability of parents, was to ensure that children were placed with catholic families. His biggest fear was that children would be adopted by protestants therefore more or less shut down adoption to the UK, including the North.

The american homes were not vetted, nor inspected. These were couples who were turned down for domestic adoption in the US. Children and parents never met beforehand. They were not monitored by social services either.

But they were wealthy and catholic and that was all that mattered to McQuaid. All that mattered to the Government was that the scandal of unmarried mothers and their offspring were hidden and segragated from society.

Spring Onion

Going Strong wrote: »

The frightening part is the comments about "Babies from Mother & Baby homes who were adopted by couples in the USA who were refused by state adoption agencies." Why were they refused? Nice to see the nuns had much, err, higher standards of course.

They wanted dollars, not happy homes.

Waitsian

Apologies if already posted but worth a read:

http://www.rte.ie/news/special-reports/2014/0610/622940-mother-and-baby-homes/


Could the spikes/nails hammered into the wall indicate a body under each in the ground beneath?


In Spain there are finally forensic digs unearthing the victims of the civil war there from 1936-'39. Maybe it's time we brought in forensic archaeologists to unearth Ireland's victims.

robindch

Handing in ~30,000 signatures petition to Minister of Justice and Equality, Frances Fitzgerald, and Minster for Children, Charles Flanagan at lunchtime today.

bumper234

Petition is over 30,000 now.

Obliq

robindch wrote: »

Handing in ~30,000 signatures petition to Minister of Justice and Equality, Frances Fitzgerald, and Minster for Children, Charles Flanagan at lunchtime today.

Well done dude. And the other dudes, some of whom I presume are present here. :cool: Very cool.

Flippyfloppy

robindch wrote: »

Handing in ~30,000 signatures petition to Minister of Justice and Equality, Frances Fitzgerald, and Minster for Children, Charles Flanagan at lunchtime today.

Brilliant.

'Someone' looks stressed!!

robindch

Comments on the David McSavage video have been moved to the David McSavage thread here

eire4

Spring Onion wrote: »

They wanted dollars, not happy homes.

Very much so. The church in Ireland is all about power and money. They could care less about caring and looking after people.


The degrading and inhuman way they behaved toward the unfortunate women and children is sick really.

Lingua Franca

Flippyfloppy wrote: »

I'll tell you why : Because it's still so bloody ingrained in our culture! I can see bits of it in the older members of my family and the way they were and I'm sure I'm not the only one!

"All of my granddaughters are sluts. They all got pregnant out of wedlock."
"I didn't, I was married first"
"That's what you say, you got married outside the country so I don't believe it was a proper(ie. Catholic) wedding. You're a slut and your child is a bastard."

- My grandmother to my cousin in front of every woman in the family.

"Pauper's wedding"
- what she repeatedly called my secular registry office wedding. She wasn't invited. She said she wouldn't come anyway. Then she showed up to the reception, said I looked like a dairy cow in my dress and demanded a seat at the top table. :pac:

Mind you, she could be progressive too.

Like when she turned to all of her daughters immediately after calling my cousin a slut and her child a bastard, jabbed a finger at them and said "Mind you, if they'd had contraception and abortion in my day, you, you and you wouldn't be here."

diveout

I think if my grandmother were alive, I would have been disowned, without a doubt. And she would have no interest in her grandchild either. I firmly believe that.

Obliq

Lingua Franca wrote: »

"All of my granddaughters are sluts. They all got pregnant out of wedlock."
"I didn't, I was married first"
"That's what you say, you got married outside the country so I don't believe it was a proper(ie. Catholic) wedding. You're a slut and your child is a bastard."

- My grandmother to my cousin in front of every woman in the family.

"Pauper's wedding"
- what she repeatedly called my secular registry office wedding. She wasn't invited. She said she wouldn't come anyway. Then she showed up to the reception, said I looked like a dairy cow in my dress and demanded a seat at the top table. :pac:

Mind you, she could be progressive too.

Like when she turned to all of her daughters immediately after calling my cousin a slut and her child a bastard, jabbed a finger at them and said "Mind you, if they'd had contraception and abortion in my day, you, you and you wouldn't be here."

Goodness, we're such a lovely bunch of humanity, aren't we? :mad: Don'tcha just love them Irish...so full of the craic. Land of saints and sinners and sacred feckin cows.

Elektronske

As I'm not from Ireland, I ask on the older persons forum what they remember of the times and what did they do at the time to prevent these acts.

They refused to say and then shut the thread down. The old habits die hard.

bumper234

Elektronske wrote: »

As I'm not from Ireland, I ask on the older persons forum what they remember of the times and what did they do at the time to prevent these acts.

They refused to say and then shut the thread down. The old habits die hard.

No

You started asking why none of them did anything about the homes in a very aggressive manner.

Neyite

diveout wrote: »

I think if my grandmother were alive, I would have been disowned, without a doubt. And she would have no interest in her grandchild either. I firmly believe that.

I was 39 weeks pregnant when I met my mums neighbour. She asked if I was happy about it. I laughed it off and told her it was a planned pregnancy.

Elektronske wrote: »

As I'm not from Ireland, I ask on the older persons forum what they remember of the times and what did they do at the time to prevent these acts.

They refused to say and then shut the thread down. The old habits die hard.

You went with an accusatory tone, and wanted them to explain why they didnt do something about it. Posters were politer to you than you deserved to be honest.

Tell us where you are from then. I'd love to visit that utopia...

Obliq

ezra_pound wrote: »

I don't know about the manner used but that precise question is the most important matter that needs to be resolved from the catholic church abuse in this country. We need to understand how our society acquiesced in an institutionalised system of abuse and degradation.

So the poster is right to push on this issue because people who were alive at the time do have to address it. And the young have to understand how their parents and grandparents allowed this to happen so that we can prevent a similar situation happening again.

Yes, but perhaps asking have they acknowledged the secrecy and acquiescence that was so prevalent in society would be more useful? The manner of asking is all important, and should not include blaming a whole generation. How well are WE doing, for example, with the appalling abuses of our present day Ireland? How much do we change every day as regards homelessness, mental health issues, immigration issues? But we know of them.

I think asking a question is very different from accusing people of the answer.

popolive

The grass is always greener. I cant think of a country that doesn't have a lot of absurdities and injustices in its history. Take your 'perfect' or typical example of human rights loving progressiveness and Google a bit under the surface and you might end up disappointed e.g passive non violent feminist boxing banning Swedes (protestant too) and the fairly recent forced sterilization of people they dont like. I haven't lost my faith in humanity though. I just lost my faith in superstitious nonsense as a magical cure all for societies ills. The RCC is not genuinely sorry for what it has enabled in my opinion. It gave shelter to the psycho and the pedo but not to the sheep who lost their ways.

mezuzaj

Obliq wrote: »

Yes, but perhaps asking have they acknowledged the secrecy and acquiescence that was so prevalent in society would be more useful? The manner of asking is all important, and should not include blaming a whole generation. How well are WE doing, for example, with the appalling abuses of our present day Ireland? How much do we change every day as regards homelessness, mental health issues, immigration issues? But we know of them.

I think asking a question is very different from accusing people of the answer.

Exactly!!. Who defends the travellers today. How will society view our views in 50 years time?

Spring Onion

Decent turnout for the "vigil" in Galway. It was nice. Nothing religious. A few people spoke and there were a couple of songs and a minute's silence. Seemed to be lots of press there. They had 796 paper cut-outs on the railings of the playground to represent the babies that died in Tuam.

Did anyone go to the Dáil?

Turtwig

Elektronske wrote: »

Yeah, lets divert from the thread . . . anything but the topic eh :rolleyes:

Obliq wrote: »

That's enough. Stop now. Mass unmarked grave for 800 babies in Tuam, remember? Not "how you didn't go over well on another forum", and that's all I'm saying to you.

STOP!

Discussing actions and events on a different forum. Any further posts on this matter will be carded/deleted. Posts may also be retrospective carded when we get to read them!

Akrasia

Lingua Franca wrote: »

"All of my granddaughters are sluts. They all got pregnant out of wedlock."
"I didn't, I was married first"
"That's what you say, you got married outside the country so I don't believe it was a proper(ie. Catholic) wedding. You're a slut and your child is a bastard."

- My grandmother to my cousin in front of every woman in the family.

"Pauper's wedding"
- what she repeatedly called my secular registry office wedding. She wasn't invited. She said she wouldn't come anyway. Then she showed up to the reception, said I looked like a dairy cow in my dress and demanded a seat at the top table. :pac:

Mind you, she could be progressive too.

Like when she turned to all of her daughters immediately after calling my cousin a slut and her child a bastard, jabbed a finger at them and said "Mind you, if they'd had contraception and abortion in my day, you, you and you wouldn't be here."

She sounds like a real 'character'

dharma200

My grandmother, Italian Roman Catholic, told my mother that me and my sister were like 'dogs in the street' because she did not get us baptised.
Regardless of that the indoctrination and fear mongering, spouting from the pulpit and placing people in real fear is to blame for this. My grandmother was a peasant, who has been brought up in the church, being told since she was in her mothers arms about the joys of hell. None of these lay people were inherently evil, or stupid, however they were living in fear of the church, of hell, of god and the devil. Of all these stories of brimstone and fire, of eternal shame and of limbo. All the ****e spouted by the church. That is why the church, and the church alone, should shoulder responsibility for these atrocities.

Cabaal

http://www.thejournal.ie/state-files-removed-from-national-archive-following-mother-and-baby-home-revelations-1510066-Jun2014/

THE DEPARTMENT OF Health has removed a dozen files from the National Archives since revelations about the deaths of almost 800 children at a mother and baby home in Tuam hit the headlines.

The department confirmed to TheJournal.ie that since 25 May – when the Irish Mail on Sunday led with the story – that 12 state files have been withdrawn from the archives.

I think the first comment sums up what very likely could be happening,

"If you listen carefully you will hear the brush, sweeping everything under the carpet. The Irish way."

It worked throughout the 40's, 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's and 90's anytime these revelations came up, I'm skeptical if it won't happen now.

Lets not forget, when this was reported by a German paper in the 1950's they did all they could to hope it would go away...and it did.

"Ireland has become a sort of hunting ground today forforeign millionaires who believe they can acquire children to suit their whims."
8 Uhr Blatt (German Newspaper)
13th December 1951

Flippyfloppy

dharma200 wrote: »

My grandmother, Italian Roman Catholic, told my mother that me and my sister were like 'dogs in the street' because she did not get us baptised.
Regardless of that the indoctrination and fear mongering, spouting from the pulpit and placing people in real fear is to blame for this. My grandmother was a peasant, who has been brought up in the church, being told since she was in her mothers arms about the joys of hell. None of these lay people were inherently evil, or stupid, however they were living in fear of the church, of hell, of god and the devil. Of all these stories of brimstone and fire, of eternal shame and of limbo. All the ****e spouted by the church. That is why the church, and the church alone, should shoulder responsibility for these atrocities.

I suppose then one could argue that members of the clergy are even more brainwashed than the peasants, after all, they felt their calling in life was to become active in a roll officially responsible for teaching ideals of the RCC, not just casually like your grandmother.

At the same time, I'm sure many of us were told the horrors of hell and who would go there from a young age. But it takes a certain type of person to be unable to see the wood from the trees, regarding race/orientation/perceived sins.

Just to add, in my opinion, I think the golden rule in society is - be careful of who you put in a position of power over vulnerable people. We've seen it with nursing homes, creches, industrial schools, churches and orphanages to name a few, supposedly 'well meaning' people developing God complexes becoming cruel once within a group of like-minded individuals.

Firedance

dharma200 wrote: »

My grandmother, Italian Roman Catholic, told my mother that me and my sister were like 'dogs in the street' because she did not get us baptised.
Regardless of that the indoctrination and fear mongering, spouting from the pulpit and placing people in real fear is to blame for this. My grandmother was a peasant, who has been brought up in the church, being told since she was in her mothers arms about the joys of hell. None of these lay people were inherently evil, or stupid, however they were living in fear of the church, of hell, of god and the devil. Of all these stories of brimstone and fire, of eternal shame and of limbo. All the ****e spouted by the church. That is why the church, and the church alone, should shoulder responsibility for these atrocities.

I second that sentiment, there were undoubtedly people who did not fall under this category who did try to highlight what was happening but I feel the majority were terrified of speaking out against the church. IMO its taken several generations for that fear to dissipate and I don't think its a simple as asking that generation 'why did you not stop what was happening' It really is not that simple. The church got away with so much because they instilled total fear in their subjects. I think too there was a certain amount of vulnerability because people were less educated in general and we all know that knowledge is power. But that's just my take on it..