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Mass unmarked grave for 800 babies in Tuam
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I voted no in the Children's Referendum, to an extent because it might interfere with the need to obtain parental consent, so my tinfoil hat credentials are sound on this point.So yeah, there's clearly ethical questions over it.
That said, I really can't get worked up about this when you see the persistent and real problem of infectious disease in the 1930s and 40s. It was even complicated by a pre-independence campaign of showing the Brits by refusing to vaccinate your children. That sure showed them. Drop you weapons, or I'll expose my children to potentially lethal infection.GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »<...>, the "PKU" case means we can be pretty sure that the present wording means that doctors do need to obtain consent from rational, dutiful, parents before delivering routine medical treatment to children. Which is exactly as it should be.
I don't yet see anything that suggests to me that the pursuit of this issue will lead us anywhere. If Mary Robinson leads a mass resignation from the Mount Anville Past Pupils Union, I'll change my mind. Even at that, I'd see more of a need for us to identify what allegience we all share than agreeing on what allegience we don't share.But seriously, is there no way at all that you can see this issue as actually tipping the balance in favour of the truth coming out about our recent history? Cynicism is one of the things that stops us being open to possibility y'know.
That's not too bad a summary, but you'll appreciate there's a few steps between the first bit and the second.Deleted User wrote: »" I GCU Flexible Demeanour believe that because the aggregate information regarding mortality rates at Mother and Child Homes was discussed in the Dáil at the time, there should be no outrage at the information revealed through Corless' work. ".0 -
GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »I suspect, if she's really an historian, she'll understand that Oireachtas members didn't arise from Mars. [...] The point is to have a clear-eyed and measured analysis, and not just replace one set of overwrought rantings with another.
GCU, you appear, again, to have missed the point by a country mile.GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »My next comment probably breaks my warning from the Moderator to ensure my posts are interesting, entertaining and informative (although I don't think I have to be all three at once). But that's actually my issue here. We're approaching the issue in a tribal manner, where the nuns are one tribe and there's incomprehension of why anyone would take an approach that wasn't just raking up whatever dirt they could find on them.
So, let me be quite clear - if you don't post something interesting, informative, co-operative, entertaining or worth reading for any other reason, and especially, if you impute motives to other posters whom you don't know from Adam, you will be carded or banned for trolling.
You can consider this your final warning.0 -
GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »I voted no in the Children's Referendum, to an extent because it might interfere with the need to obtain parental consent, so my tinfoil hat credentials are sound on this point. That said, I really can't get worked up about this when you see the persistent and real problem of infectious disease in the 1930s and 40s. It was even complicated by a pre-independence campaign of showing the Brits by refusing to vaccinate your children. That sure showed them. Drop you weapons, or I'll expose my children to potentially lethal infection.I don't yet see anything that suggests to me that the pursuit of this issue will lead us anywhere. If Mary Robinson leads a mass resignation from the Mount Anville Past Pupils Union, I'll change my mind. Even at that, I'd see more of a need for us to identify what allegience we all share than agreeing on what allegience we don't share.That's not too bad a summary, but you'll appreciate there's a few steps between the first bit and the second.
Eh, there was already a vaccine that was proven to work available. Therefore they were guinea pigs, they weren't vaccinated out of concern for their health, it was for the purpose of drug trialing. Hence the ethical question. It would have been ethical to use the existing vaccine that has a proven success rate. Trialing on the other hand without any consent is not.0 -
There isn't necessarily a conflict. But I'm not justifying it on anything other than pragmatic grounds.<...> they weren't vaccinated out of concern for their health, it was for the purpose of drug trialing. <...>
For anyone interested, there's an account of one of the trials here:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2461377/pdf/brmedj07595-0014.pdf
I'd find it hard to criticise the Medical Officer of Health in Tipperary S.R. for implementing an innovative product, given the circumstances.0 -
GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »
That's not too bad a summary, but you'll appreciate there's a few steps between the first bit and the second.Deleted User wrote:" I GCU Flexible Demeanour believe that because the aggregate information regarding mortality rates at Mother and Child Homes was discussed in the Dáil at the time, there should be no outrage at the information revealed through Corless' work. ".
Okay, if this is your set in stone position on the matter, thank you for contributing, but I don't see how this
a - is any type of logical progression,
b - affects the position of anyone in 2014 on being appalled by the events,
c - lessens the need for an Inquiry/Investigation into the burial location of 796 children at the Mother & Child home in Tuam.
Can you elaborate on those thoughts?0 -
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We're weeks into this controversy and the septic tank has still not been opened up and examined by the gardai
It should have been opened up 40 years ago when the bodies were first discovered but that was 'in the past' when 'times were different' Now we're in the 21st century and the gardai are still refusing to investigate a massive hole in the ground 'full to the brim' of childrens bones
The only reason I can think of for why it's not being investigated is because the authorities are afraid of what they might find.0 -
We're weeks into this controversy and the septic tank has still not been opened up and examined by the gardai
It should have been opened up 40 years ago when the bodies were first discovered but that was 'in the past' when 'times were different' Now we're in the 21st century and the gardai are still refusing to investigate a massive hole in the ground 'full to the brim' of childrens bones
The only reason I can think of for why it's not being investigated is because the authorities are afraid of what they might find.
Don't forget - kicking it down the road has been successful in the past.
We are now officially in the ministers make comments re:terms of reference stage. That part alone can takes ages0 -
The state pathologist could be off on holidays too - I wouldn't impute too much, at least not yet anyway.The only reason I can think of for why it's not being investigated is because the authorities are afraid of what they might find.
That said, while it would be nice to think that the area has at least been cordoned off and casual trespassers discouraged from going there, I suspect that local gardai are avoiding the place as though it were toxic.0 -
More from the IT on what went on in these "homes":
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/county-homes-took-harsh-toll-on-unmarried-mothers-1.18359730 -
The minister will do what ministers do, the gardai should be investigating this because it's a hole in the ground allegedly full to the brim with childrens skeletons. Even if it turns out that all of these deaths were unavoidable and the nuns did everything they could to prevent them, there are grounds for the gardai to investigate the circumstances surrounding this grave.Bannasidhe wrote: »Don't forget - kicking it down the road has been successful in the past.
We are now officially in the ministers make comments re:terms of reference stage. That part alone can takes ages0 -
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Two shocking statistics - for the 796 dead kids, the average age of death was seven and a half months and almost 80% of babies died before their first birthday
I haven't seen the records or crunched the numbers, but in all honesty, can this really be true? What are the comparable statistics for outside these places?
The article makes me want to vomit.
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/79-per-cent-of-tuam-babies-failed-to-make-it-to-first-birthday-1.1836023Irish Times wrote:Almost 80 per cent of the 796 children who died in the Bon Secours mother and baby home in Tuam did not live to see their first birthday. Figures provided by the General Register Office, via the Department of Social Protection, show measles, whooping cough and influenza were some of the most common causes of death among the children who passed away in the Co Galway home between 1925 and 1961.
Candles are lit during a march from the Department of Children and Youth Affairs, Mespil Road to the Dáil, in solidarity with the babies and mothers from Tuam and all other homes. Photograph: Colin KeeganCounty homes took harsh toll on ‘unmarried mothers’ The children who died in the home did so at an average age of about 7.7 months. Some 126 of them did not live for more than one month. Some 630 of the 796 (79.1 per cent) did not make it to their first birthday. The records show that Kathleen Cloran, who passed away on March 27th, 1932, had the longest life of any of the 796. She lived for nine and a half years before succumbing to what the records cite as “ulceration of larynx”.
On the other end of the spectrum, two children were listed as having passed away just 10 minutes into their lives. A boy with the surname Walsh, whose first name was “unknown”, died on July 25th, 1939. His cause of death is listed as “asphyxia neonatorum” - a failure to begin regular respiration after birth. A second child passed away 10 minutes into their life on March 10th, 1946. The cause of death is noted as “premature”. The child, surname Haugh, is not given a first name and the sex of the baby is not noted.
The highest number of deaths recorded in a single day was four - on April 30th, 1926. That came during a week when 13 children died as part of an apparent measles outbreak. The outbreak resulted in the deaths of 25 children - 16 girls and nine boys - between April 5th and May 16th, 1926. The ages of these children ranged from two months to eight years. Subsequent measles outbreaks saw 22 children die of the infection between November 27th and Christmas Eve of 1936. A further 17 children died of measles between May 20th and July 16th of 1947.
Whooping cough was a factor in more than 50 deaths in the home. Some 11 children died as a result of the illness, also referred to as Pertussis in the records, between February 20th and March 31st, 1948. Forms of bronchitis, influenza and pneumonia were cited as causes of death in almost 150 cases. Types of “debility” (weakness) were noted as causes of death for more than 100 children, who ranged in age from one and a half hours to three and a half years. More than 40 children had “premature” noted as the cause of their death.
Forms of tuberculosis led to at least 45 deaths, the last of which was in 1950. Meningitis was cited as the cause of more than 30 deaths. Marasmus , a severe form of malnutrition, led to the deaths of 10 children aged between two and 12 months. The last of these was Michael John Gilmore on September 21st, 1946. A number of the deaths came as a consequence of illnesses that are largely treatable today such epilepsy, tonsillitis, diabetes and coeliac disease.
Several records highlight how language use has changed with a number of children noted as being an “idiot”, while there are also references to “imbecile” and “mongol”. Walsh (21 instances), Murphy (14), Kelly (14), Burke (13) and Flaherty (11) are the most regularly recurring surnames in the records. There are 76 girls named Mary listed as having died in the home. Mary features in a further 70 names of those who passed away - such as Mary Ann, Mary Theresa and Mary Kate.
The earliest recorded death in the home is that of Patrick Derrane, who passed away aged five month as a result of “gastroenteritis” on April 26th,1925. The last record relates to the death of Mary Carty, who died on January 15th, 1960. The files state that the four and a half month old died as a result of a “fit”, while noting she was “a restless baby”.0 -
GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »We're approaching the issue in a tribal manner, where the nuns are one tribe and there's incomprehension of why anyone would take an approach that wasn't just raking up whatever dirt they could find on them.
I think that you have made your argument to the point that its now transparent.
Not that this is at all about YOU but! Your sentiment above is a current reflection the fearful stance that most probably facilitated this happening in the first place.
Almost all on this forum see a massive wrong doing and most understand that the real problem was/is endemic with varied layers or strata of culpability across society. Some more culpable than others, but we as Irish people each carry an amount of responsibility relevant to this happening in a systemic manner over such a protracted period of time.
Reminder - This concrete tank was full of a very large number of children.
A family member of mine speaks about the destructive energy of trying to communicate with certain offices "its like pucking a ball against a whine of hay". I think that you could well be the hay stack in this conversation!
I personally call on all that’s right to ensure that normal practice is followed and a detailed investigation including a pathology assessment is allowed to happen.0 -
I'd say substantially true:I haven't seen the records or crunched the numbers, but in all honesty, can this really be true? What are the comparable statistics for outside these places?
http://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/birthsdeathsandmarriages/archive/annualreportsonmarriagesbirthsanddeathsinirelandfrom1864to2000/
Picking the report from 1923 again
To give a point of reference, there were 228 infant deaths registered in 2013 giving an infant mortality rate of 3.3 deaths per 1,000 live births.The number of deaths of infants under one year of age registered in Saorstat Eireann during the year 1923 was 4,098, equivalent to a rate of 66 per 1,000 births, as compared with 69 per 1,000 in 1922 and an average of 81 for the ten years 1913-22.<...> For Northern Ireland the infant mortality in 1923 was 76 per 1,000 births, for England and Wales, the rate was 69 and for Scotland 79 per 1,000 births.<...>
The number of deaths of illegitimate infants under one year of age registered in Saorstat Eireann during the year 1923, was 559 <...> the resulting mortality rate is 344 per 1,000 births <...> These rates must be regarded as excessive.<...>In England and Wales in 1923, the illegitimate infant death rate was 132 per 1,000 births or about one death to every 8 illegitimate infants born alive. This rate is about twice that for legitimate infants ,and it may be said that this proportion is maintained for that country yearly from 1906 onwards.<...>
at every period of life, the mortality among illegitimate infants is much in excess of that for all infants, as shown in Table X., especially at the age-periods one and under 2 months and 2-3 months.
It will be seen from Table XIV that 281, or more than half the total number of deaths of illegitimate infants occurred in Dublin county and city. Of the 103 deaths in the county 85 took place in institutions and 18 elsewhere, and of the 178 city deaths, the corresponding numbers were ll7 and 61.
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I'll elaborate, but I'll try to be brief at the same time Oireachtas debates are a reasonable indication of the general state of public discussion. If the issue is featuring there, it should substantially reduce what we might call the "hidden" factor at the time. These are issues they couldn't deal with, rather than issues they pretended didn't exist. I'd wonder at the necessity for a public inquiry, simply because I suspect an amount of questions being posed could be answered by reading a couple of books. The history of public health policy in Ireland isn't so totally unknown. And, yes, religion does feature in that story. But that's very old news, which means I don't see the scope for renewed outrage.Deleted User wrote: »Can you elaborate on those thoughts?
I can't really respond, as the quote you highlight is the subject of a Moderator's warning.Glengormanjay wrote: »I think that you have made your argument to the point that its now transparent.0 -
GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »I'd say substantially true:
http://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/birthsdeathsandmarriages/archive/annualreportsonmarriagesbirthsanddeathsinirelandfrom1864to2000/
Picking the report from 1923 againTo give a point of reference, there were 228 infant deaths registered in 2013 giving an infant mortality rate of 3.3 deaths per 1,000 live births.
Who exactly has disputed that there were people who were aware of the high mortality rates at the time?
Indeed, who is disputing that there have always been a number of people who were aware of the whole sorry mess?
I certainly haven't. I have maintained all along that there was collusion between the Civil authorities and the religious authorities and am gathering the evidence to demonstrate this.
What is being disputed is your assertion that it was widely known simply because it was discussed in the Dáil and some statistics were produced at the time. You have provided no evidence to support your claim that it was a matter of public knowledge.
Nor have you explained how this information came to be so widely disseminated in a country where large swathes of it had no electricity, no Irish radio station outside Dublin and that (2 RN) only began broadcasting in 1926, phones were rare, telegrams expensive...Was there, perchance, a town cryer yelling out Dáil reports and statistics to a population mainly educated to primary school level?
You are also ignoring the fact that as it was known to elected representatives in the 1920s it makes it worse because it still continued unabated for decades.
Since you think the whole issue is done and dusted and everyone knew - may I ask why your are posing here still having made you point several times now?0 -
Well, that's my evidence right there. Discussed in Dail = public knowledge. If they were colluding, they wouldn't be doing it across the floor of the Chamber in front of the public gallery while a team of stenographers solemnly recorded it for the permanent record.Bannasidhe wrote: »What is being disputed is your assertion that it was widely known simply because it was discussed in the Dáil and some statistics were produced at the time. You have provided no evidence to support your claim that it was a matter of public knowledge.
Ah, this is ridiculous. How did they know, starting in 1864, that they had to register births and deaths? How did voters know when to turn up for elections? I've already made it clear that I'm not saying the Dail record was read in every corner of the country. I'm making the more subtle point that the Dail would reflect concerns in the country at large.Bannasidhe wrote: »Nor have you explained how this information came to be so widely disseminated in a country where large swathes of it had no electricity, no Irish radio station outside Dublin and that (2 RN) only began broadcasting in 1926, phones were rare, telegrams expensive...Was there, perchance, a town cryer yelling out Dáil reports and statistics to a population mainly educated to primary school level?
I'm not ignoring it. I've actually posted some material, here and in AH, that illustrates that they knew the problem was bad and getting worse. If all it took was a formal decision, it would have stopped in the 1920s when they decided to run down the County Homes and replace them with something better. They just didn't have the financial capacity to do it.Bannasidhe wrote: »You are also ignoring the fact that as it was known to elected representatives in the 1920s it makes it worse because it still continued unabated for decades.
Sure, I'm just responding to points as they come up.Bannasidhe wrote: »Since you think the whole issue is done and dusted and everyone knew - may I ask why your are posing here still having made you point several times now?0 -
I'm still totally unconvinced by the theory that public knowledge somehow would make any of this 'ok'.0
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GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »Well, that's my evidence right there. Discussed in Dail = public knowledge. If they were colluding, they wouldn't be doing it across the floor of the Chamber in front of the public gallery while a team of stenographers solemnly recorded it for the permanent record. Ah, this is ridiculous. How did they know, starting in 1864, that they had to register births and deaths? How did voters know when to turn up for elections? I've already made it clear that I'm not saying the Dail record was read in every corner of the country. I'm making the more subtle point that the Dail would reflect concerns in the country at large.I'm not ignoring it. I've actually posted some material, here and in AH, that illustrates that they knew the problem was bad and getting worse. If all it took was a formal decision, it would have stopped in the 1920s when they decided to run down the County Homes and replace them with something better. They just didn't have the financial capacity to do it.Sure, I'm just responding to points as they come up.
Are you aware of every single discussion that takes place in the Dáil? If not, why not since they are all public knowledge? Perhaps you can tell us all about The Child Sex Offenders Bill of 2012 - no need to google it since it is public knowledge.
Can you come up with some newpaper articles to support your contention that it was widely known - general elections are generally well publicised not to mention 'back then' the old back of a truck speech making was all the rage.
You made a statement that Dáil debate = widely known. You are being asked to provide evidence to support your claim. You have yet to do so.0 -
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Deleted User wrote: »I'm still totally unconvinced by the theory that public knowledge somehow would make any of this 'ok'.
It doesn't, not even one tiny little bit,
Why GCU keeps going on about some people in the past knowing details is beyond me, it doesn't change the present and it doesn't take into account the power the catholic church had in Ireland both on a government level and social level for most people in Ireland.
We must not forget that this was an organization that were the self appointed moral guardians of the land.
The vast majority feared them, others worked with them to avoid "embarrassment" to them and the remaining were shouted down or bullied into submission if the spoke out against them.0 -
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/79-of-babies-who-died-in-tuam-home-didn-t-reach-first-birthday-1.1836023
79% of babies who died in Tuam home didn't reach first birthday
General Register Office records show 796 children died at an average age of 7.7 months0 -
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But, sure, you're just obfusticating. The point, as I've already said, is the Dail debates represent a record of stuff discussed at the time in the place where formal, public deliberation takes place. If a similar record existed of day-by-day public meetings of political leaders in ancient Ireland, would you similarly dismiss it as giving no guide to conditions at the time?Bannasidhe wrote: »You made a statement that Dáil debate = widely known. You are being asked to provide evidence to support your claim. You have yet to do so.
Contributions to Dail debates are generally public set-pieces, so I'm not suggesting we just accept it wholesale. In any event, you'll also find stuff there like the Senate working itself into a sweat over "The Tailor and Ansty". I'm presenting it in exactly the way that I'm presenting it - as an illustrative source that debunks the idea of these being deaths that were hidden away in Convents and disposed of, without leaving a trace behind.
And, indeed, the subject matter of the debates also illustrates that halting the high infant mortality rate wasn't just a simple matter of the political leadership issuing an instruction to "make it so".0 -
GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »I'm presenting it in exactly the way that I'm presenting it - as an illustrative source that debunks the idea of these being deaths that were hidden away in Convents and disposed of, without leaving a trace behind.
And yet those people trying to trace children who were either adopted or died in Mother & Baby homes are told that no records exist.0 -
GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »The point, as I've already said, is the Dail debates represent a record of stuff discussed at the time in the place where formal, public deliberation takes place. If a similar record existed of day-by-day public meetings of political leaders in ancient Ireland, would you similarly dismiss it as giving no guide to conditions at the time?
I was in a hotel in Galway earlier this week and some of the meeting rooms had framed newspaper front pages from the recent past. The 1st one I looked at was from 1962 (I cant remember the actual paper). I was interested to read what people were talking about at that time the Tuam mother and baby home closed. The front page had a big picture of De Valera and some Cardinals. The story underneath explained how he was receiving the highest honour the pope can bestow - "The Supreme Order of Christ". I thought to myself that kinda sums it all up. A message from the pope to Ireland and it's leaders - keep up the good work and thanks for the cash...0 -
GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: ».
Sure, I'm just responding to points as they come up.
It so apparent that this discussion is about "the discussion and your place in it". Unfortunate as my assessment is - you don't seem to have an actual opinion!
I am at the stage where I feel forced to say that your dull but stonewall defence of the status quo and your issue fracturing attacks are themselves a direct representation of what most of us think is actually wrong and the potential root of this issue.
I suggest that you stop and be honest to yourself - ask yourself what your true motivation and agenda are. Then assess the actual value of pursuing them.
I ask that you persist from derailing this very valuable discussion /forum. I think it’s obvious to even you that you are alone in your values.0 -
Indeed, adoptions were not regulated until the 1950s. Even after that, as we know, some children were secretly 'adopted' by the mechanism of just providing false birth particulars.Going Strong wrote: »And yet those people trying to trace children who were either adopted or died in Mother & Baby homes are told that no records exist.
But the facts around infant mortality were well recorded.
Sure you don't even need to go back that far to find jarring links. I posted earlier in this thread, or the AH one, about how the Bons Secours Medical Group is the largest private medical group in Ireland with a turnover in excess of €200 million.Red Pepper wrote: »I was in a hotel in Galway earlier this week and some of the meeting rooms had framed newspaper front pages from the recent past. The 1st one I looked at was from 1962 (I cant remember the actual paper). I was interested to read what people were talking about at that time the Tuam mother and baby home closed. The front page had a big picture of De Valera and some Cardinals. The story underneath explained how he was receiving the highest honour the pope can bestow - "The Supreme Order of Christ". I thought to myself that kinda sums it all up. A message from the pope to Ireland and it's leaders - keep up the good work and thanks for the cash...
Do you expect that to change any time soon? Would you people who went to Irish fee-paying secondary schools, which typically have a religious ethos, to distance themselves from those institutions? Or would you expect those people to be pretty complacent on that side of the equation?0 -
GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »But, sure, you're just obfusticating. The point, as I've already said, is the Dail debates represent a record of stuff discussed at the time in the place where formal, public deliberation takes place. If a similar record existed of day-by-day public meetings of political leaders in ancient Ireland, would you similarly dismiss it as giving no guide to conditions at the time?
Contributions to Dail debates are generally public set-pieces, so I'm not suggesting we just accept it wholesale. In any event, you'll also find stuff there like the Senate working itself into a sweat over "The Tailor and Ansty". I'm presenting it in exactly the way that I'm presenting it - as an illustrative source that debunks the idea of these being deaths that were hidden away in Convents and disposed of, without leaving a trace behind.
And, indeed, the subject matter of the debates also illustrates that halting the high infant mortality rate wasn't just a simple matter of the political leadership issuing an instruction to "make it so".
obfusticating - what a lovely word.
Could you stop doing it and supply some evidence to support your statements rather then rephrasing it over and over? That would be lovely too.0 -
GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »Do you expect that to change any time soon? Would you people who went to Irish fee-paying secondary schools, which typically have a religious ethos, to distance themselves from those institutions? Or would you expect those people to be pretty complacent on that side of the equation?
I am not sure how your questions relate to my post. Let me try to answer them.
1. Do you expect that to change any time soon? Yes, it was 1962, a lot has changed.
2. Would you people who went to Irish fee-paying secondary schools, which typically have a religious ethos, to distance themselves from those institutions? I don't know anyone who went to a fee-paying school.
3. Or would you expect those people to be pretty complacent on that side of the equation? I think this is a very fluffy question and I cant answer.0 -
You want proof that the Dail is a public forum?Bannasidhe wrote: »Could you stop doing it and supply some evidence to support your statements rather then rephrasing it over and over?0 -
It doesn't, not even one tiny little bit,
Why GCU keeps going on about some people in the past knowing details is beyond me, it doesn't change the present and it doesn't take into account the power the .......
I agree 100% - the more GCU keeps the focus on the "system" and "knowledge" of the time the worst it is.
As per the previous post GCU first look in the mirror and then look out the window. Learn and realise that the feeling of the vast majority is absolute disgust with these events but more especially the patronising/stonewall arguments that comes out in their defence.
I think we are all aware that “Government” perception if unchecked can be a very stupid and dangerous.
GCU – Answer one question – How can you defend and even play with this issue? When seemingly one of the 796 bodies found in this authority owned septic tank was at least nine years of age.
I’m personally not interested in the in the gory detail of who actually carried out and facilitated this act, but I really do care that it happened in my country and that people like you are willing to dull and hide from the truth of it happening. INVESTIGATE THIS SO THAT NOTHING LIKE IT NEVER HAPPENS AGAIN!!!!!! Lets acknowledge the evil of passive acceptance.0 -
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Grand, I'd just wonder if any of them sees a connection.Red Pepper wrote: »I don't know anyone who went to a fee-paying school.0
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