Mass unmarked grave for 800 babies in Tuam

Brian Shanahan

SpaceTime wrote: »

People tend to gloss over the fact that we had a very significant fascist movement here in the 1930s.

One half of them merged with Cumann na nGaedhal to form Fine Gael, hence Blueshirts. Their founding leader, former Garda general Eoin O'Neill, was quickly sidelined though, but early FG borrowed many ideas, such as corporatism, off Mussolini.

The other half of the fascist movement in Ireland was the armed wing of FF. So we had, in effect, at one stage two parties with significant fascist influence fighting against each other.

GCU Flexible Demeanour

SpaceTime wrote: »

People tend to gloss over the fact that we had a very significant fascist movement here in the 1930s.

? The term "Blueshirt" is very commonly used in political debate, right down to the present day.

SpaceTime

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

? The term "Blueshirt" is very commonly used in political debate, right down to the present day.

Most people are unaware why though.
That whole era of of the civil war was generally not taught in school. Unless you took leaving cert history. It seemed very glossed over by the primary and junior cert syllabi.

Red Pepper

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/more-than-660-children-died-in-dublin-home-in-seven-years-1.1840174

More than 660 children died in Dublin home in seven years

Almost half of all infants at Pelletstown mother and baby home in 1925 died
More than 660 infants and children died in Pelletstown mother and baby home in Dublin during a seven-year period up to the end of March 1930, State records show.

The reports also contain figures compiled by the Registrar General that show the mortality rate among “illegitimate” infants in 1925 and 1926 was five times that of infants born within marriage, something the departmental reports acknowledge as a “deplorable loss of life”.

Department of Local Government and Public Health reports show there were 662 deaths in the institution on the Navan Road between April 1st, 1923 and March 31st, 1930.

Glengormanjay

Bannasidhe wrote: »

To date no documents have been found where paternity was disputed. And yes, people have been looking very hard to find any.

You are thinking Anglo not Gaelic.

Thank you Bannasidhe, you have rendered so many aspects of this issue and discussion into one statement.

We really do need to stand back and look at the big picture from the injured person perspective.

[*]The Anglo-Saxon legal system really struggles with fundamental opposition and balance between "folkright" and “Privilege”. In summary it is a legal system that facilitates accusation of legal rights of ownership of the few over the many. (case in point being the India Trading Company or Guilds of Derry)

[*]We need to realise that we have the right to expect that "OUR" law focuses on protection the people of the land above all else! We have the ability to request and expect change and improvement!

[*]Even as "Vassals of the State" the children of Tuam had the right to a protected life.

[*]We need to feel proud of who we are and the society/country we live in.

[*]We as a people need to stop being led point on point to a place where we have no input or right to speak – our current situation with Europe.

[*]We should move away from the law being a series of Corporate rules that create SPACES to do wrong and to bend what is naturally right.

[*]We do need a governing class that are truly in service to and even afraid of the people.

[*]If we truly understand the concept of politics - then we should expect that this or any other Government would set this particular wrong doing at the very top of its agenda. Yet I think that we all expect that this Government is fudging the issue and dragging its heels on any investigation!

[*]Brehon law was not perfect, but is was far more appropriate for civilised society than our current Feudal based system! (GCU, this means protects those that have against those that don't)

[*]Brehon Law evolved from the earliest days of our society and as a result it was based on and representative of our deepest values of family, land for the people and society for all. It allowed us to interact at a very high and respected level with rest of Europe.

[*]It supported and bolstered a non materialistic and civilised society for all that was relatively peaceful! No wonder the English set about destroying it – imagine the liberation of the masses if the concept had been carried home to London? To this day the English in particular are “class bound”.

Maybe just maybe we have the right to expect that justice will be done and issues like this will be fully investigated, in order to send the strongest message to all corners of the globe that Ireland - IS FOR PEOPLE!

BTW - Some great input and valuable perspectives coming out of your corner.

GCU Flexible Demeanour

Glengormanjay wrote: »

(GCU, this means protects those that have against those that don't)

I don't know why you're especially expecting that I'd be interested in that. I don't know anything about Brehon law. Maybe it was grand, and just came a cropper because of what Iain M. Banks called an Outside Context Problem

The usual example given to illustrate an Outside Context Problem was imagining you were a tribe on a largish, fertile island; you'd tamed the land, invented the wheel or writing or whatever, the neighbors were cooperative or enslaved but at any rate peaceful and you were busy raising temples to yourself with all the excess productive capacity you had, you were in a position of near-absolute power and control which your hallowed ancestors could hardly have dreamed of and the whole situation was just running along nicely like a canoe on wet grass... when suddenly this bristling lump of iron appears sailless and trailing steam in the bay and these guys carrying long funny-looking sticks come ashore and announce you've just been discovered, you're all subjects of the Emperor now, he's keen on presents called tax and these bright-eyed holy men would like a word with your priests.

Or maybe it just became irrelevant, as it no longer related to how people organized their affairs. Marx put this rather well.

Society is not founded upon the law; this is a legal fiction. On the contrary, the law must be founded upon society, it must express the common interests and needs of society — as distinct from the caprice of the individuals — which arise from the material mode of production prevailing at the given time. This Code Napoleon, which I am holding in my hand, has not created modern bourgeois society. On the contrary, bourgeois society, which emerged in the eighteenth century and developed further in the nineteenth, merely finds its legal expression in this Code. As soon as it ceases to fit the social conditions, it becomes simply a bundle of paper. You cannot make the old laws the foundation of the new social development, any more than these old laws created the old social conditions.

If you find relevance in those laws, and see a material reason why they'd gain common acceptance, then you absolutely take a very great interest in them.

Vivisectus

"Brehon Law evolved from the earliest days of our society and as a result it was based on and representative of our deepest values of family, land for the people and society for all. It allowed us to interact at a very high and respected level with rest of Europe."

I always found the whole "Blud und Boden" thing naive at it's best, and dangerous at it's worst.

Glengormanjay

SpaceTime wrote: »

Whatever about the details of the history, you'd think they'll we would have been more idealistic about creating a forward-looking genuine republic.

The French and the Americans genuinely understand what that means. I don't think Irish people really understood it to be anything other than 'not England' in the old days.

We really should be looking towards creating a genuine Republic and to achieve that you can't really have state-church fusion going on.
Secularism is pretty essential.

I very much agree, but the exception must be "I don't think Irish people really understood it to be anything other than 'not England' in the old days". We must remember that we a tiny but great nation did the impossible when we threw off the shackles of the Worlds Super Power and stood up by ourselves!
We at every single pportunity rejected the concept of colony and empire.

We and only we brought the light to Europe that ended the "Dark ages". I personally think that Ireland has played a very big role in fighting for equality and inspiring the concept of "small resistance resulting in freedom of the people" all across the Globe.
I'm not sure that the American have got the concept of Republic right (in fact I'm sure that they haven’t).

I do think that we as a nation have only recently turned our back on that function of standing up for the underdog and fighting for what is right!

There is nothing only conservatism, a lack of conviction and confidence stopping us evolving to a true republic (Government by the people for the People). The better we do this the less radical will be!!!!!!

Glengormanjay

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

I don't know why you're especially expecting that I'd be interested in that. I don't know anything about Brehon law. Maybe it was grand, and just came a cropper because of what Iain M. Banks called an Outside Context ProblemOr maybe it just became irrelevant, as it no longer related to how people organized their affairs. Marx put this rather well.If you find relevance in those laws, and see a material reason why they'd gain common acceptance, then you absolutely take a very great interest in them.

I think it actually was "grand", in relative terms on Ireland 800 years ago, that is.
My very point is that it did come from the actual needs of all in a "relatively" peaceful society. So in other words I actually agree with your second Quote "Society is not founded upon the law; this is a legal fiction. On the contrary, the law must be founded upon society, it must express the common interests and needs of society — as distinct from the caprice of the individuals — which arise from the material mode of production prevailing at the given time."
So much so that the Normans embraced it fully - Becoming more Irish than the Irish themselves!!!! Imagine that, somebody actually aspired to live like us!

Please don't get me wrong I am not a Marxist or a socialist and I am in no way blindly radical, but I do believe that right is right and we all need to be very honest about defending it.

Its why I am following this thread - I really want a full and proper investigation to be held in respect to the Tuam babies case.

Glengormanjay

Vivisectus wrote: »

"Brehon Law evolved from the earliest days of our society and as a result it was based on and representative of our deepest values of family, land for the people and society for all. It allowed us to interact at a very high and respected level with rest of Europe."

Amazing how we can all be misunderstood - "Blut und Boden" was a Nazi generated ideology that really is so far right of my points, politics and intent of discussion. In fact your analysis of my point couldn’t be more wrong.
So let me try to summarise - I believe that Ireland would be best served as a society by moving to a legal foundation that primarily focuses on the Common Law protection and freedom of each and every individual within our society. As it did before we "adopted" the law of a nation that at the time understood its own future to be in conquering, mastering and economic incorporation others. As I said before a law that considered most of us to be "vassals".
I really do not want to be in any way disrespectful to their memory but Its apparent to me that the value placed on the 800 Children that died under the care of the Tuam mother and baby institution was comparable to that you would associate with the word/term "vassal".

Vivisectus

Glengormanjay wrote: »

Vivisectus wrote: »

"Brehon Law evolved from the earliest days of our society and as a result it was based on and representative of our deepest values of family, land for the people and society for all. It allowed us to interact at a very high and respected level with rest of Europe."

Amazing how we can all be misunderstood - "Blut und Boden" was a Nazi generated ideology that really is so far right of my points, politics and intent of discussion. In fact your analysis of my point couldn’t be more wrong.
So let me try to summarise - I believe that Ireland would be best served as a society by moving to a legal foundation that primarily focuses on the Common Law protection and freedom of each and every individual within our society. As it did before we "adopted" the law of a nation that at the time understood its own future to be in conquering, mastering and economic incorporation others. As I said before a law that considered most of us to be "vassals".
I really do not want to be in any way disrespectful to their memory but Its apparent to me that the value placed on the 800 Children that died under the care of the Tuam mother and baby institution was comparable to that you would associate with the word/term "vassal".

The national socialists did rather like the phrase, but they certainly did not invent it. Rather, it refers to a sort of romantic idealism about people and the land they come from as being connected and sharing a spiritual bond.

When you say “Brehon Law evolved from the earliest days of our society and as a result it was based on and representative of our deepest values of family, land for the people and society for all. It allowed us to interact at a very high and respected level with rest of Europe." you seem to be indulging in the same sort of romanticism.

I appreciate the sentiment, but I find it rather naïve and it always makes me uneasy as it is so easily used for all kinds of unpleasant nationalistic excesses. I am sure you are completely innocent of that particular kind of right-wing twaddle, and I do not mean to accuse you of it, however!

There is always a real risk that these kinds of discussions descend into a sort of misty-eyed celtic romanticism, and that would be a pity as there have been some really interesting posts so far.

I Heart Internet

Apologies if this has been posted already.

Associated Press have issued an apology for innacuracies made in its reporting of this case. I can't find a direct link on their website. But it's quoted in full in the UK Telegraph.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/timstanley/100277164/associated-press-apologises-for-its-incorrect-reporting-of-the-tuam-babies-scandal/

And here it is (AP's statement):

In stories published June 3 and June 8 about young children buried in unmarked graves after dying at a former Irish orphanage for the children of unwed mothers, The Associated Press incorrectly reported that the children had not received Roman Catholic baptisms; documents show that many children at the orphanage were baptized.

The AP also incorrectly reported that Catholic teaching at the time was to deny baptism and Christian burial to the children of unwed mothers; although that may have occurred in practice at times it was not church teaching.

In addition, in the June 3 story, the AP quoted a researcher who said she believed that most of the remains of children who died there were interred in a disused septic tank; the researcher has since clarified that without excavation and forensic analysis it is impossible to know how many sets of remains the tank contains, if any.

The June 3 story also contained an incorrect reference to the year that the orphanage opened; it was 1925, not 1926.

Glengormanjay

Vivisectus wrote: »

When you say “Brehon Law evolved from the earliest days of our society and as a result it was based on and representative of our deepest values of family, land for the people and society for all. It allowed us to interact at a very high and respected level with rest of Europe." you seem to be indulging in the same sort of romanticism.

I appreciate the sentiment, but I find it rather naïve and it always makes me uneasy as it is so easily used for all kinds of unpleasant nationalistic excesses. I am sure you are completely innocent of that particular kind of right-wing twaddle, and I do not mean to accuse you of it, however!

There is always a real risk that these kinds of discussions descend into a sort of misty-eyed celtic romanticism, and that would be a pity as there have been some really interesting posts so far.

A romantic? Only at home on a Saturday night - LOL

Misty eyed? - never! - I qualified my point above by stating the Brehon law and Ancient Irish culture (Celtic?) were not perfect but probably a more appropriate model to base our future basis of law on.

Right wing? - as per all sentiment above - I am probably the furthest from it! Before you say it, I'm neither far left or nationalistic either.

Naive - Those who know me would laugh - I'm probably overly pragmatic and very much a "here and now" person who believes in making it happen. I really don't think that I'm naive and I certainly don't think it's naive to think that the law should be based on the person rather than the Corporate Entity.

Optimistic? Yes Absolutely - guilty if ever charged! So let’s push for natural justice for the Tuam babies (My only reason for writing on this forum)

abaddon_ire

Yeah, your quote tags need some work.

I can't figure out what it is you are responding to. You appear to be rebutting yourself.

I'm sure that is not what you intended, but help me out here.

Edit: It appears a borked quote further upthread has been propagated via quotes. I can't be bothered untangling it.

Glengormanjay

Sorry don't know now that happened - have editied the qoute its now titled Vivisectus as per actual

Bannasidhe

Izzy Kamikaze (whom I know personally in case any one want to take the Michael out of her name) has done some great work getting images of the Plans of Tuam workhouse and the location/structure of the various cesspools/septic tanks. http://izzykamikaze.tumblr.com/post/89770303451/vaults-under-tuambabies-site-are-part-of-sewage-system

If one is thinking all of them were rectangular completely enclosed concrete boxed - they would be wrong.

As this photo Izzy took of the plans show - some, at least, were more akin to what we think of as Victorian sewage tunnels:

MetalDog

Looks like the plastic paddy crowd in the States are in full on denial mode.
http://www.irishcentral.com/opinion/cahirodoherty/President-of-Catholic-League-calls-Tuam-report-a-hoax-and-mass-hysteria.html

What a vile shower of bastards.

Frank Lee Midere

As far as I read most non Irish outlets have retracted this story. AP has apologised for its reporting.

Bannasidhe

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

As far as I read most non Irish outlets have retracted this story. AP has apologised for its reporting.

Retracted or apologised for hyperbole?

Cabaal

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Retracted or apologised for hyperbole?

They've apologized for "some" incorrect details, the story has not been retracted by any news outlets I'm aware of yet

lazygal

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

As far as I read most non Irish outlets have retracted this story. AP has apologised for its reporting.

Link to the media outlets which have issued retractions?

Spring Onion

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

As far as I read most non Irish outlets have retracted this story. AP has apologised for its reporting.

Nice try Frank, wouldn't you love a cover-up!

Birroc

Spring Onion wrote: »

Nice try Frank, wouldn't you love a cover-up!

Has a coverup already started?

http://www.thejournal.ie/state-files-removed-from-national-archive-following-mother-and-baby-home-revelations-1510066-Jun2014/

THE DEPARTMENT OF Health has removed a dozen files from the National Archives since revelations about the deaths of almost 800 children at a mother and baby home in Tuam hit the headlines.

The department confirmed to TheJournal.ie that since 25 May – when the Irish Mail on Sunday led with the story – 12 state files have been withdrawn from the archives.

However, no copies of the 12 files which were taken are currently available to readers in the archive.

Furthermore, over 40 state files relating to unmarried mothers, such as health inspection reports on unmarried mother’s homes and other aspects of their administration, were “recalled” by the Department of Health in May 1992 and on 8 February 2006.

Waitsian

Birroc wrote: »

Has a coverup already started?

http://www.thejournal.ie/state-files-removed-from-national-archive-following-mother-and-baby-home-revelations-1510066-Jun2014/

THE DEPARTMENT OF Health has removed a dozen files from the National Archives since revelations about the deaths of almost 800 children at a mother and baby home in Tuam hit the headlines.

The department confirmed to TheJournal.ie that since 25 May – when the Irish Mail on Sunday led with the story – 12 state files have been withdrawn from the archives.

However, no copies of the 12 files which were taken are currently available to readers in the archive.

Furthermore, over 40 state files relating to unmarried mothers, such as health inspection reports on unmarried mother’s homes and other aspects of their administration, were “recalled” by the Department of Health in May 1992 and on 8 February 2006.

So where are they? Who has them? They must be somewhere. How do we find out?

Frank Lee Midere

Spring Onion wrote: »

Nice try Frank, wouldn't you love a cover-up!

Why would "I love a cover up". Haven't been to mass in 20 years, except for the wedding stuff etc. Not a believer.

just asked a question. What did I get?

1) Assumed that anybody questioning the Group Think is a catholic.
2) Got 4 sneery responses.

Lads, apples don't fall far from trees. Nut job conformist Catholicism has been replaced by nut job conformist Atheism. Not all of us atheists obviously, but particularly the malcontents who post on this forum.

Here is the biggest apology I have ever seen AP produce.

DUBLIN (AP) — In stories published June 3 and June 8 about young children buried in unmarked graves after dying at a former Irish orphanage for the children of unwed mothers, The Associated Press incorrectly reported that the children had not received Roman Catholic baptisms; documents show that many children at the orphanage were baptized. The AP also incorrectly reported that Catholic teaching at the time was to deny baptism and Christian burial to the children of unwed mothers; although that may have occurred in practice at times it was not church teaching. In addition, in the June 3 story, the AP quoted a researcher who said she believed that most of the remains of children who died there were interred in a disused septic tank; the researcher has since clarified that without excavation and forensic analysis it is impossible to know how many sets of remains the tank contains, if any. The June 3 story also contained an incorrect reference to the year that the orphanage opened; it was 1925, not 1926.

That's a retraction of all the points of the original story. Including the date/

NYT was always careful and urged caution etc.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/10/world/europe/tuam-ireland-796-irish-children-died-historian-searches-for-burial-records.html?_r=0

Forbes is calling it a hoax:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/eamonnfingleton/2014/06/15/796-babies-in-a-septic-tank-does-a-hidden-anti-catholic-agenda-explain-a-global-hoax/

So too the Daily Telegraph. And so on.

Birroc

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

NYT was always careful and urged caution etc.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/10/world/europe/tuam-ireland-796-irish-children-died-historian-searches-for-burial-records.html?_r=0

Ms. Corless said on Monday that she remained confident that the babies are buried in the general area of the septic tank, if not all are inside. “If they’re not there, where else would they be?” she said. “That home was surrounded by eight-feet-high walls, and everything seemed to be done inside there.”
She says that to date she has not been contacted by any government officials or by the police, but she expects that she will. “I have presented a case. My words have been twisted in terms of the terminology: I have never used the word ‘dumped,’ for example,” she said, referring to the way the story has been sensationalized.

“But I still believe those bodies are there in that general area,” she said. “There were two babies a day dying at some stages; the chances are they were buried somewhere convenient.”
“It doesn’t matter if there is even one body in that tank,” Ms. Corless said. “That child was buried illegally.”

What matters now to her, and to many others here, is that those children’s lives be acknowledged and respected.



Not exactly a retraction. Nobody knows where the 800 babies are.
I personally would like the site excavated to check.

Forbes is not calling it a hoax.

An opinion writer who works for Forbes is calling it a hoax.

That's like me saying that boards.ie is calling it a hoax by virtue of your intimation.

Glengormanjay

Birroc wrote: »

Ms. Corless said on Monday that she remained confident that the babies are buried in the general area of the septic tank, if not all are inside. “If they’re not there, where else would they be?” she said. “That home was surrounded by eight-feet-high walls, and everything seemed to be done inside there.”
She says that to date she has not been contacted by any government officials or by the police, but she expects that she will. “I have presented a case. My words have been twisted in terms of the terminology: I have never used the word ‘dumped,’ for example,” she said, referring to the way the story has been sensationalized.

“But I still believe those bodies are there in that general area,” she said. “There were two babies a day dying at some stages; the chances are they were buried somewhere convenient.”
“It doesn’t matter if there is even one body in that tank,” Ms. Corless said. “That child was buried illegally.”

What matters now to her, and to many others here, is that those children’s lives be acknowledged and respected.



Not exactly a retraction. Nobody knows where the 800 babies are.
I personally would like the site excavated to check.

Unfortunatly if the remains are in the Septic tank, that is detailed by the drawing Bannasidhe posted, Then I really can't see how the bodies could have been deposited in any way other than being "dumped" though the upper ope or through a man hole on the pipe.

I agree Birroc - if this story was about buried stolen art or the hidden remains of some drug lord - they would have been found long before now!!!

Bannasidhe

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

Why would "I love a cover up". Haven't been to mass in 20 years, except for the wedding stuff etc. Not a believer.

just asked a question. What did I get?

1) Assumed that anybody questioning the Group Think is a catholic.
2) Got 4 sneery responses.

Lads, apples don't fall far from trees. Nut job conformist Catholicism has been replaced by nut job conformist Atheism. Not all of us atheists obviously, but particularly the malcontents who post on this forum.

Here is the biggest apology I have ever seen AP produce.

DUBLIN (AP) — In stories published June 3 and June 8 about young children buried in unmarked graves after dying at a former Irish orphanage for the children of unwed mothers, The Associated Press incorrectly reported that the children had not received Roman Catholic baptisms; documents show that many children at the orphanage were baptized. The AP also incorrectly reported that Catholic teaching at the time was to deny baptism and Christian burial to the children of unwed mothers; although that may have occurred in practice at times it was not church teaching. In addition, in the June 3 story, the AP quoted a researcher who said she believed that most of the remains of children who died there were interred in a disused septic tank; the researcher has since clarified that without excavation and forensic analysis it is impossible to know how many sets of remains the tank contains, if any. The June 3 story also contained an incorrect reference to the year that the orphanage opened; it was 1925, not 1926.

That's a retraction of all the points of the original story. Including the date/

NYT was always careful and urged caution etc.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/10/world/europe/tuam-ireland-796-irish-children-died-historian-searches-for-burial-records.html?_r=0

Forbes is calling it a hoax:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/eamonnfingleton/2014/06/15/796-babies-in-a-septic-tank-does-a-hidden-anti-catholic-agenda-explain-a-global-hoax/

So too the Daily Telegraph. And so on.

Asking for clarification/rebutting/seeking a source is sneery now?

Hold the Press : AP apologise for saying that babies buried in unmarked graves were not baptised and failing to google opening date of St Mary's, Tuam!

^^^
Now that's sneery..

Hotblack Desiato

Birroc wrote: »

Has a coverup already started?

http://www.thejournal.ie/state-files-removed-from-national-archive-following-mother-and-baby-home-revelations-1510066-Jun2014/

THE DEPARTMENT OF Health has removed a dozen files from the National Archives since revelations about the deaths of almost 800 children at a mother and baby home in Tuam hit the headlines.

The department confirmed to TheJournal.ie that since 25 May – when the Irish Mail on Sunday led with the story – 12 state files have been withdrawn from the archives.

However, no copies of the 12 files which were taken are currently available to readers in the archive.

Furthermore, over 40 state files relating to unmarried mothers, such as health inspection reports on unmarried mother’s homes and other aspects of their administration, were “recalled” by the Department of Health in May 1992 and on 8 February 2006.

I would take this to mean nothing more than that the department has retrieved files from the archive and brought them back in for examination as part of the forthcoming investigation.

Why would the Journal expect copies to be made? That's like expecting a library to make a photocopy of a book to keep on the shelf when someone borrows it.