Mass unmarked grave for 800 babies in Tuam

Bannasidhe

ninja900 wrote: »

I would take this to mean nothing more than that the department has retrieved files from the archive and brought them back in for examination as part of the forthcoming investigation.

Why would the Journal expect copies to be made? That's like expecting a library to make a photocopy of a book to keep on the shelf when someone borrows it.

It is unusual for originals to be taken out of The National Archives. Standard practice is copies are made by scanning them. Under the National Archives Act, 1986 - documents more than 30 years old should be available to the public in the Reading Room. It is very unusual for the originals to be removed.

Here we are a little behind the times, when I order documents from Kew I receive a scanned digital copy and a hard copy.

Books are often copied too for inter-library loans - subject to copyright conditions - as are theses.

Hotblack Desiato

I'll defer to your superior knowledge Banna
but it still looks like the Journal are implying something sinister here (which, if true, would be a crime) without any evidence whatsoever.
If the last few weeks have taught us anything it should be - don't make the mistake of including what you think you know or think might be true in a story about something you can prove to be true.

Hotblack Desiato

You do know she's a historian, right?

Glengormanjay

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

Why would "I love a cover up". Haven't been to mass in 20 years, except for the wedding stuff etc. Not a believer.

just asked a question. What did I get?

1) Assumed that anybody questioning the Group Think is a catholic.
2) Got 4 sneery responses.

Lads, apples don't fall far from trees. Nut job conformist Catholicism has been replaced by nut job conformist Atheism. Not all of us atheists obviously, but particularly the malcontents who post on this forum.

Frank, I by the sounds of it am very similar to yourself relevant to religious status/belief. But I personally suspect that the initiative to support fudge/cover up will not come from the stalwarts of the Catholic Church so much as the staunch keepers of status quo and socio-political conservatism. Those who see this case as an international disgrace and who are willing to hide the fact in order to preserve some international ranking of modern society. They are the group that will if given a chance derail and kill this issue and investigation.
Incidentally I've found that many of the truly "religious" want all wrong doing to be brought to the fore and openly investigated in order that they can clear all that wrong from the organisation that supports their beliefs.

I also agree 100% with you - Blind and dogmatic Atheism is every bit as bad and corrupt as blind conservative Catholicism.

All - Correct me if I'm wrong but at this stage I think that we are all on the same side here???? Surely there is no need to "sneer / snarl" at each other’s input?

Cabaal

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2014/06/26/medical-trials-and-children-of-lesser-gods/

A timeline of the known medical trials conducted on children in Mother and baby homes in Ireland, the response of successive health ministers and the contemporaneous expansion in Ireland of the medical companies involved in those trials.

Grab a tay..

1930-5: Burroughs-Wellcome trials (“the 1930-35 trials”) of the APT (Alum-Precipitated Toxoid) vaccine for diphtheria carried out on 2000 children in residential institutions. Stage 1 of the trials took place in 1930 and include 405 children in residential institutions in Cork City, most likely the St Joseph’s Industrial School for Boys, run by the Presentation Brothers, and St Finbarr’s Industrial School for Girls, run by the Sisters of the Good Shepherd. Children taking part in Stage 1 suffer severe adverse reactions. Stage 2 of the trials takes place in 1934 and includes 320 children from residential institutions. Again adverse reactions are recorded. Stage 3 takes place in 1934 and involved 250 children from an unidentified institution for boys and Stage 4 takes place in 1935 and involves 360 children from St Vincent’s Industrial School, Goldenbridge, St Joseph’s School for Deaf Boys, Cabra, and St Saviours’s Dominican Orphanage, Lower Dominic Street.

1961: Burroughs-Wellcome trial of the effectiveness of the polio vaccine when added to the three-in-one (whooping cough, diphtheria and tetanus) vaccine carried out on 58 children in residential institutions only one of which (Bessborough, Co Cork) is identified. 28 of these children receive the proposed quadruple vaccine, with 30 getting the separate three-in-one and polio vaccines. The study concludes that there is a lower polio antibody response in those given the quadruple vaccine, and that it may, therefore, be less effective. Sixteen of 25 infants from one home develop vomiting, diarrhoea and fever after their second immunisation. Their symptoms last a few days before complete recovery. Some 36 infants from both groups are subsequently identified as having an inadequate polio antibody response, and receive booster doses. There is no further follow-up of the children involved.

1965: Trial of a ‘five-in-one’ vaccine carried out on Philip Delaney at Bessborough Mother and Baby Home, Cork.

1971: Burroughs-Wellcome trial (“the 1971 trial”) of intra-nasally injected rubella vaccine carried out by Burroughs Wellcome on 69 children in unidentified residential institutions. 11 children with no rubella antibodies and one with receive the intra-nasal vaccine, while six others without antibodies are used to monitor whether the vaccine virus was transmitted. There is no follow-up.

1973: Burroughs-Wellcome trial (“the 1973 trial”) of a modified three-in-one (diphtheria, whooping cough and tetanus) vaccine is carried out on 53 children (including mentally and physically handicapped children) in residential institutions in Dublin (St Patrick’s Home, Madonna House, the Cottage Home, the Bird’s Nest and Bohernabreena), all of whom receive the modified vaccine. The trial also includes 65 children living at home, 61 of whom receive the original vaccine. Some of the residential institutions mistakenly believe that their residents are getting the original vaccine.

1977-1984: Following concerns as to the safety of the three-in-one vaccine generally, then Health Minister Michael Woods sets up an Expert Medical Group (“the Expert Medical Group”) to deal with applications by persons alleging to have been brain damaged by the three-in-one vaccine. There are 93 applicants, 16 of which were offered ex gratis payments with 77 applications being declined. It is not known whether or not any of the applicants included children who had formed part of the 1973 trial or indeed whether or not the Expert Medical Group considered the 1973 trial at all.

1979: Construction of new £1.25 million Wellcome Ireland Limited factory in Tallaght commences.

1981: The Irish Times reports that since 1975 the Wellcome Foundation has donated £240,000 to Irish veterinary research.

1992 :Supreme Court decision in Best v Wellcome, a case successfully brought by Kenneth Best for brain damage caused by a batch of the original three-in-one vaccine. Chief Justice Liam Hamilton found Burroughs-Wellcome to have been negligent and awarded Best £2.75 million.

1993: The then Minister for Health Brendan Howlin, through his private secretary, writes to a former resident of one of the homes used in the 1973 trial, stating that the Department of Health had inquired and was satisfied there was no added risk whatsoever to the children who received the vaccines. It iremains unclear whether or not Mr Howlin was referring to the inquiry carried out by the Expert Medical Group, which as stated focused on the three-in-one vaccine generally, or a separate inquiry.

1995: Burroughs-Wellcome merges with Glaxo to form Glaxo-Wellcome. At the time of the merger Burroughs-Wellcome employs 30 people at its Irish distribution centre in Tallaght. Glaxo employs 100 people at its manufacturing facility in Rathfarnham. It also carries out packing, distribution and some research activities at its Dublin plant. Glaxo’s Irish operation records an annual profit of just under £2 million.

1997 :As a result of an investigation by the Irish Independent, the involvement of children in residential institutions in the 1973 trial is made public for the first time.

In response, the Department of Health states that all affected persons who had requested information had been provided with a full copy of their files by the Expert Medical Group in 1977-84. However most if not all of the institutionalised children part of to the 1973 trial – even if aware of having been subjected to the vaccine – would have been too young to have made an application to the Group during this period.

1998 Minister for Health Brian Cowen refers the issue of vaccine trials on children in residential institutions to the Chief Medical Officer, Dr Jim Kiely, for the purpose of compiling a Report on the 1961, 1971 and 1973 trials (“the Vaccine Trials Report”).

2000 In January, Glaxo-Wellcome merges with Smith Kline Beecham to form GlaxoSmithKline. Newspaper reports of the merger, which is described as unlikely to result in job losses in Ireland, state that Smith Kline Beecham has two manufacturing plants in Ireland, one at Ringaskiddy, Co Cork and the other at Dungarvan, Co Waterford, employing more than 660 people, as well as a Dublin-based marketing and sales operation employing 130 people. Glaxo is described as employing 110 people in Ireland – packaging, sales and distribution and in drug testing. It is also stated that Glaxo has recently approached IDA Ireland for exploratory talks about establishing a manufacturing plant from which to serve the European market, although no definite proposal has yet been put forward.

In November the Vaccine Trials Report is furnished to the Oireachtas. Little or no documentary evidence of the trials is available from Glaxo-Wellcome, the Department of Health or any of the residential institutions identified by the consultant who conducted the trials, Dr Irene Hillery.............................

more reading here http://www.broadsheet.ie/2014/06/26/medical-trials-and-children-of-lesser-gods/#more-340380

GCU Flexible Demeanour

Cabaal wrote: »

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2014/06/26/medical-trials-and-children-of-lesser-gods/

1930-5: Burroughs-Wellcome trials (“the 1930-35 trials”) of the APT (Alum-Precipitated Toxoid) vaccine for diphtheria carried out on 2000 children in residential institutions. Stage 1 of the trials took place in 1930 and include 405 children in residential institutions in Cork City, most likely the St Joseph’s Industrial School for Boys, run by the Presentation Brothers, and St Finbarr’s Industrial School for Girls, run by the Sisters of the Good Shepherd. Children taking part in Stage 1 suffer severe adverse reactions. Stage 2 of the trials takes place in 1934 and includes 320 children from residential institutions. Again adverse reactions are recorded. Stage 3 takes place in 1934 and involved 250 children from an unidentified institution for boys and Stage 4 takes place in 1935 and involves 360 children from St Vincent’s Industrial School, Goldenbridge, St Joseph’s School for Deaf Boys, Cabra, and St Saviours’s Dominican Orphanage, Lower Dominic Street.


more reading here http://www.broadsheet.ie/2014/06/26/medical-trials-and-children-of-lesser-gods/#more-340380

I think it's worth reminding ourselves of a broader picture, which might explain why even severe reactions might have led people to believe the idea was worth persisting with.

http://www.oireachtas-debates.gov.ie/D/0094/D.0094.194406280037.html
Dáil Éireann - Volume 94 - 28 June, 1944
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Incidence of Diphtheria
Mr. P.S. Doyle asked the Minister for Local Government and Public Health whether information can now be made available as to the annual number of persons in recent years who died from diphtheria and who had been immunised against it.

Dr. Ward: The number of deaths from diphtheria amongst immunised persons during the years 1941, 1942, and 1943 were 4, 6, and 10, respectively. The corresponding figures for non-immunised persons were 165, 267, and 309, respectively.

Part of the reason for the reluctance of people to submit their children to diphtheria immunisation may have been the experience of many children at the Ring Irish College, County Waterford in 1936, developing TB following inoculation; one child died as a result. Strangely enough, despite the absence of WiFi, people still seemed to actually know stuff about events occuring within a couple of hundred miles of them. Yet, a high and rising death rate from the disease demanded action.

At this stage, we do need this inquiry, so long as all the tinfoil hat stuff is included; at least then it will demonstrate if reason can triumph over sentiment.

Spring Onion

I just heard there was a mother and baby home documentary on TV3, did anyone see it? I must try and get a podcast or something.

Found it : http://www.tv3.ie/3player/show/635/0/0/A-Secret-Buried

Hotblack Desiato

obplayer wrote: »

She has shown every sign of it in her posts; the day you show knowledge and education in your posts I will rate you higher than her. All you seem to do is attempt to denigrate everything you read in any post without giving positive alternatives.

I am going to bed now, nighty night.

You have overstepped the mark here.

I've no idea what your beef is but it's your lookout if you can't properly interpret a post that wasn't even directed at you in the first place.

robindch

obplayer wrote: »

[...] the day you show knowledge and education in your posts I will rate you higher than her [...]

Oi, none of that now.

obplayer

ninja900 wrote: »

You have overstepped the mark here.

I've no idea what your beef is but it's your lookout if you can't properly interpret a post that wasn't even directed at you in the first place.

Then report me, if the mods have a problem with my posts they will tell me.

Oops, they just did....

Ok, I take back and apologise unreservedly for my comment.

Turtwig

We'd prefer if you apologise without us having to step in. Apology seems more sincere then, but anyway spit on it and shakes hand and then pass me the sugar would you chap?

obplayer

Turtwig wrote: »

We'd prefer if you apologise without us having to step in. Apology seems more sincere then, but anyway spit on it and shakes hand and then pass me the sugar would you chap?

Ok, I spit on it and I have taken my posts down, in the cold light of day they did not belong on a thread like this, or perhaps any thread.


And my apology is sincere.

robindch

^^^ Not sure I'm *that* camp in real life.

Dades

@ Frank Lee Midere - if you read back you got one snarky reply. No need to make the same assumptions from that that people make about 'atheists these days'.

robindch wrote: »

^^^ Not sure I'm *that* camp in real life.

Well, I was going to say something about the yellow cape... but sure the week that's in it!

Birroc

This is what we do not want in the Mother and Baby inquiry.
This clip is haunting.

Lisha

Birroc wrote: »

This is what we do not want in the Mother and Baby inquiry.
This clip is haunting.

I remember watching that clip when it was aired and i cried.
I cried again now re watching it and I think anyone who doubts these allegations and those who are in charge or investigation these issues should watch this everyday just to keep their minds focused on the real victims.

Shame on those who try now or tried in the past to coverup and minimize the suffering caused by these institutions be they lay people or religious.

I wish all the victims peace.

popolive

Birroc wrote: »

This is what we do not want in the Mother and Baby inquiry.
This clip is haunting.

That clip brought tears to my eyes.

fisgon

Babies for sale.

Article from today's Irish Times, enumerates how church and private nursing homes forged adoption papers and sold babies to the States.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/the-baby-black-market-1.1847804

A couple of damning lines from the article, which is actually more horrifying than I had thought possible - it seemed that there was nothing that church and state could do to shock anymore, but it turns out that there are always more depths to sink to......

"Sr Hildegaard confided in a social worker, shortly before her death, that at one point income from American adoptions exceeded income from any other source."

Spring Onion

The Department of Children and Youth Affairs has received 81 submissions about the terms of reference for the Commission of Investigation into mother-and-baby homes

Individuals and organisations had until 12pm to send submissions to a dedicated email address set up by the department for people to have their say.

Minister for Children Charlie Flanagan has also met advocacy groups and opposition spokespeople as well as receiving representations through what have been described as "other channels".

In a statement, the department said the views expressed in submissions and consultations would also be fed into the work of the inter-departmental review group.

In welcoming the level of response, Mr Flanagan expressed his gratitude to those who have contributed to the scoping work of the review group.

He thanked those who shared their personal experiences, in particular, to assist in establishing an effective Commission of Investigation

Birroc

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/mother-and-baby-homes-investigation-decision-within-weeks-1.1851932

The commission of investigation into mother-and-baby homes will look at how the system operated from the foundation of the State until the 1980s.
Minister for Children Charlie Flanagan yesterday briefed the Cabinet on the interim report of a cross-departmental review committee which is preparing for the investigation.

The committee, composed of senior officials from eight Government departments and some State agencies, was asked to examine the scope of the issues relevant to a commission of investigation.

Mr Flanagan said, after the meeting, that following disturbing revelations regarding the mother-and-baby home in Tuam, Co Galway, the Government had decided to establish the investigation.

“The report of the cross-departmental committee is a preliminary examination of a very complex range of issues. It will inform the Government’s deliberations on the terms of reference of the commission of investigation,” said Mr Flanagan.

“I intend to . . . finalise terms of reference in consultation with Government colleagues and to bring a resolution to the Oireachtas for consideration prior to the summer recess,” said Mr Flanagan.

Cabaal

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2014/07/03/why-so-kind-glaxosmithkline/

RTE R1′s Morning Ireland today reported on pharmaceutical company Glaxo SmithKline’s links with Sligo Institute of Technology and its plans to expand its Stiefel plant in Co Sligo (above).

GlaxoSmithKline, in its previous incarnation Burroughs Wellcome, was the company which carried out vaccine trials on children in care homes throughout Ireland in 1930, 1932, 1934, 1935, 1961, 1965, 1971 and 1973.

Its 2009 decision to close the Stiefel Laboratory was reversed in 2012 following the return of records relating to the trials by the Child Abuse Commission.

In 2010 the Oireachtas Committee on Health and Children requested these records from Glaxo Smith Kline, which indicated that although prepared to hold the records for the foreseeable future, it would not hand them over without a court order.

The government has yet to state whether or not the proposed inquiry into mother and baby homes will include vaccine trials carried out in these homes.

GCU Flexible Demeanour

fisgon wrote: »

Babies for sale.

Article from today's Irish Times, enumerates how church and private nursing homes forged adoption papers and sold babies to the States.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/the-baby-black-market-1.1847804

Again, interesting to notice that the issue of adoptions by US couples didn't pass unnoticed at the time, and how criticism of this policy was responded to.

http://www.oireachtas-debates.gov.ie/D/0159/D.0159.195607180042.html

Dáil Éireann - Volume 159 - 18 July, 1956
Adjournment Debate. - Transfer of Children to U.S.A.

Minister for External Affairs (Mr. Cosgrave): The facts in this matter are not in dispute. <...> I deprecate the type of publicity which this debate will attract. <...> It is significant that the only comments on this have appeared in what we here call the yellow English Sunday newspapers, who avail of every, and any, opportunity to smear the name of this country. I do not propose to be a party to any such campaign and I hope that no Deputies in this House will lend themselves to it either.

Bannasidhe

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

Again, interesting to notice that the issue of adoptions by US couples didn't pass unnoticed at the time, and how criticism of this policy was responded to.

Did you ever supply that evidence which demonstrates that the contents of Dail debates were widely known btw?

lazygal

On Dail debates, there was no wide circulation of them until the internet. All Oireachtas debates for the Dail, Seanad and committees are now online within hours or days of the debate.
One had to buy copies of the Oireachtas official report from the Government's official publications office before the online ones were available. And it might be of interest to know that not all of the debates made it into the official report. There's a seanad debate on The Tailor and Antsy during which a senator read from the offending book, and the official report leaves this part out as it was feared people would buy the official report in order to read the offending text of The Tailor and Antsy. Wiki link here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tailor_and_Ansty

So to claim that Dail and Seanad, never mind committee debates (which is where the bulk of work was and is really done) were widely circulated isn't an accepted fact. And the debates themselves often omitted or edited certain things which would be unparliamentry or off topic. And given that there was no audio recordings of the debates from which written reports could be generated until recent times, the accuracy of the official reports of the parliament are always open to question.

robindch

More appalling stories emerge from Westbank in Wicklow, a home run by a protestant woman:

http://www.thejournal.ie/westbank-protestant-orphanage-1551863-Jul2014/

GCU Flexible Demeanour

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Did you ever supply that evidence which demonstrates that the contents of Dail debates were widely known btw?

Sorry, I obviously wasn't clear enough when I dismissed your question as irrelevant. That said, I can't actually see what point I left unaddresed.

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

But, sure, you're just obfusticating. The point, as I've already said, is the Dail debates represent a record of stuff discussed at the time in the place where formal, public deliberation takes place. If a similar record existed of day-by-day public meetings of political leaders in ancient Ireland, would you similarly dismiss it as giving no guide to conditions at the time?

Contributions to Dail debates are generally public set-pieces, so I'm not suggesting we just accept it wholesale. In any event, you'll also find stuff there like the Senate working itself into a sweat over "The Tailor and Ansty". I'm presenting it in exactly the way that I'm presenting it - as an illustrative source that debunks the idea of these being deaths that were hidden away in Convents and disposed of, without leaving a trace behind.

And, indeed, the subject matter of the debates also illustrates that halting the high infant mortality rate wasn't just a simple matter of the political leadership issuing an instruction to "make it so".

If someone wants to seriously contend that members of Dail Eireann were in the habit of holding secret discussions on the floor of the house, in front of the press gallery, while their deliberations were recorded for publication, I seriously just can't help them.

However, I do notice the extent to which you obviously want to believe this whole matter was in some way hidden from public view, when it evidently wasn't.

lazygal wrote: »

And given that there was no audio recordings of the debates from which written reports could be generated until recent times, the accuracy of the official reports of the parliament are always open to question.

Indeed, there are known occasions when the official record was massaged, such as the time several years ago when an anti-semetic comment was directed at Alan Shatter but was subtly changed in the published report.

But, of course, that's not material to the matter in hand. The point is that these many references to the high infant mortality rate, particularly among children born out of wedlock, were not edited from the record.

Or is someone suggesting they were added a few weeks ago?

marienbad

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

Sorry, I obviously wasn't clear enough when I dismissed your question as irrelevant. That said, I can't actually see what point I left unaddresed.If someone wants to seriously contend that members of Dail Eireann were in the habit of holding secret discussions on the floor of the house, in front of the press gallery, while their deliberations were recorded for publication, I seriously just can't help them.

However, I do notice the extent to which you obviously want to believe this whole matter was in some way hidden from public view, when it evidently wasn't.Indeed, there are known occasions when the official record was massaged, such as the time several years ago when an anti-semetic comment was directed at Alan Shatter but was subtly changed in the published report.

But, of course, that's not material to the matter in hand. The point is that these many references to the high infant mortality rate, particularly among children born out of wedlock, were not edited from the record.

Or is someone suggesting they were added a few weeks ago?

If you consider that something printed in the dail reports qualifies as 'well known' then there is little point in having discussion with you.

That alone today would not suffice to make anything well known never mind the 30's 40's and 50's.

Your refusal to accept or even discuss that issue makes any point you make somewhat irrelevant

GCU Flexible Demeanour

marienbad wrote: »

If you consider that something printed in the dail reports qualifies as 'well known' then there is little point in having discussion with you.

That alone today would not suffice to make anything well known never mind the 30's 40's and 50's.

Your refusal to accept or even discuss that issue makes any point you make somewhat irrelevant

I've fully responded to any point made. I addressed the point you are making several days ago.

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

I've already made it clear that I'm not saying the Dail record was read in every corner of the country. I'm making the more subtle point that the Dail would reflect concerns in the country at large.

What you (and others) are trying to do is create an artificial argument, rather than simply accept what is clear and obvious.

Because it really is so precious, apparently, to believe that this is a story about something that was never spoken about at the time.

marienbad

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

I've fully responded to any point made. I addressed the point you are making several days ago.What you (and others) are trying to do is create an artificial argument, rather than simply accept what is clear and obvious.

Because it really is so precious, apparently, to believe that this is a story about something that was never spoken about at the time.

You didn't address the point ( thinking you did doesn't make it so) , that is why it keeps coming back .

And you keep attributing motives that are just incorrect as to why other posters won't accept your point.

All you are saying that the very elites that caused the problem discussed it. This just re-enforces the comments made by Norman Tebbit in the last few days about the mindset at that level.


A straight question - have you ever met anyone that ever got a piece of information from a dail report ? Ever ?

GCU Flexible Demeanour

marienbad wrote: »

You didn't address the point ( thinking you did doesn't make it so) , that is why it keeps coming back .

Well, no, I certainly have addressed it. The only point remaining is precisely how long folk want to string this out. The point is not, as you repeat again, whether or not the Dail report was a source that people at the time read in every corner fo the country. The point is that debates in the Dail reflect the subject matter of public debate.

The question you conclude your post with, which you seem to think is a clincher, just demonstrates you either haven't comprehended this point, or you fully understand it but want to obfusticate.