Mass unmarked grave for 800 babies in Tuam

Vivisectus

No big deal: different times, and other countries did worse, and those government officials were just doing the best they could with limited resources, and anyway we cannot compare the rates of child slave labor because not all the countries had the same amount of mountains and/or some of the things we compare it too are not countries so the comparison does not count.

Obviously this is just all being blown way out of proportion by a media that is biased against countries and just wants to sell copies by raking up yet another scandal involving a nation state.

Hey, if it works for the church!

marienbad

Vivisectus wrote: »

No big deal: different times, and other countries did worse, and those government officials were just doing the best they could with limited resources, and anyway we cannot compare the rates of child slave labor because not all the countries had the same amount of mountains and/or some of the things we compare it too are not countries so the comparison does not count.

Obviously this is just all being blown way out of proportion by a media that is biased against countries and just wants to sell copies by raking up yet another scandal involving a nation state.

Hey, if it works for the church!

I don't get your point ?

TheChizler

The Black Oil wrote: »

WTF?

https://twitter.com/Boglawyer/status/520179400969834496

Wow, that can't be real, can it?...

PopePalpatine

marienbad wrote: »

I don't get your point ?

I think he's parodying the Church there.

Brian Shanahan

PopePalpatine wrote: »

I think he's parodying the Church there.

And quite a few posters whose sterling efforts in the Mental Gymnastics Olympics earned themselves a place in my ignore list over a couple of days reading this thread a while back.

There was something really vile in some of the denials and lies posted (mostly parroting those of others to be fair, but still) to try and minimize and hand-wave away this abomination.

marienbad

PopePalpatine wrote: »

I think he's parodying the Church there.

The problem is , it is not a parody , just standard fare which we are seeing replicated again in the last few days.

Vivisectus

marienbad wrote: »

I don't get your point ?

Sorry I was making fun (or trying to) of the reactions to these kind of stories by apologists. Generally the gist includes some or all of

1: Everyone was doing it
2: This is just typical anti-church bias
3: They were doing the best they could, but they were just poor
4: Those were different times
5: They are just trying to sell newspapers and are hyping the story

etc etc etc.

Going Strong

Don't forget "You're judging people in the past by the standards of today."

Funnily, judging people of the present by a 2,000 year old book doesn't count.

robindch

Amateur historian, Catherine Corless, is speaking at a seminar this evening in Galway - she claims that Galway County Council were aware of the burial site and that it's larger than she originally thought. Corless has also said that Minister for Children, James Reilly, said that witnesses will be compelled to appear at the upcoming inquiry.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/evidence-of-far-more-extensive-tuam-burial-site-says-historian-1.1994949

Irish Times wrote:

Evidence on the Tuam mother and babies home recently presented to Minister for Children James Reilly points to a far more extensive burial site, local historian Catherine Corless has said. Ms Corless, who is due to speak at a conference at the Irish Centre for Human Rights in NUI Galway (NUIG) this evening, has obtained maps and minutes of meetings from Galway County Council which confirm that the local authority was aware of the burials.

Ms Corless, who conducted the research into the deaths of 796 infants at the Bon Secours home in Tuam between 1925 and 1961, says that minutes of a Galway County Council meeting of December 11th 1979 refer to a proposal to build a children’s playground close to new local authority housing on the Dublin Road. The motion refers to a “children’s burial ground” on the site and the “sensitive nature of the area”.

The maps from the Galway County Council archive show the irregular nature of back gardens attached to the local authority housing, built after the home was demolished. The maps suggest that the gardens were designed to limit the impact on the burial site, she told The Irish Times. Ms Corless says she presented all this material to Dr Reilly at a recent meeting with him, and he recorded it and took photographs.

She will outline details at a public seminar at NUIG this evening, hosted by the Irish Centre for Human Rights. The seminar, entitled ‘Investigating the Tuam Mothers and Babies Home: A Question of Human Rights’, will also be addressed by solicitor Kevin Higgins, Prof Michael O’Flaherty of the Irish Centre for Human Rights and Tanya Ward of the Children’s Rights Alliance. Ms Corless says that Dr Reilly told her that witnesses would be compelled to appear before the Government’s commission of inquiry into mother and babies homes, which is to be chaired by Ms Justice Yvonne Murphy.

A spokesman for Dr Reilly said that the legislation allowed for compellability of witnesses at such commissions. The spokesman said that the meeting with Ms Corless had been “very informative”, and was one of a series of meetings which Dr Reilly has held, and is continuing to hold, with groups, individuals and political parties on the issue. Dr Reilly’s spokesman said that an “enormous amount of work” had already been carried out on preparing the terms of reference for the commission of inquiry, the Attorney General’s office was closely involved, and the terms were “close” to completion.

This evening’s seminar at NUIG will be chaired by Mark Kelly of the Irish Council for Civil Liberties. It is open to the public will run from 5-7pm in room MRA201 in the MRI Annex, NUIG.

robindch

Somebody's storyfied attitudes to unmarried mothers and out-of-wedlock babies in Ireland. Frankly, it makes for some horrific reading.

https://storify.com/Limerick1914/ireland-s-attitude-to-unmarried-mothers

chrysagon

all swept under the carpet

Red Pepper

When is this useless government going to set out the terms of reference for this inquiry and get things moving?

chrysagon

Red Pepper wrote: »

When is this useless government going to set out the terms of reference for this inquiry and get things moving?

when they think they have come up with a plausible excuse!!!

Red Pepper

It's November now and they initially said they would outline the terms of references before the summer recess.

CAN THIS GOVERNMENT DO ANYTHING RIGHT???!!!

chrysagon

The governments silence is deafening.. if it was any other country there would be an outcry..

Brian Shanahan

chrysagon wrote: »

The governments silence is deafening.. if it was any other country there would be an outcry..

I find this line of sensationalism ridiculous. We're no less ****ed up a country than any other develope one, and far less ****ed up than developing countries. Where is the lasting outcry for the continuing scandal of school shootings in the US, for example?

The way of the world is to have a quick spasm of anger before attention is diverted with something new. The great mass of the people are more easily controlled that way.

eire4

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

I find this line of sensationalism ridiculous. We're no less ****ed up a country than any other develope one, and far less ****ed up than developing countries. Where is the lasting outcry for the continuing scandal of school shootings in the US, for example?

The way of the world is to have a quick spasm of anger before attention is diverted with something new. The great mass of the people are more easily controlled that way.

Sadly you have a point there. In the US there was finally a major outcry there after the Connecitcut shooting and real pressure brought to bear with for instance over 90% in favour of full background checks before gun sales with no loopholes. Yet the political system is so broken that no bill could get off the ground because the NRA and other powerful interests had bought off and threatened enough politicans that they did nothing despite it clearly been the will of the country.
So the end result was nothing done no mass protests over this and the killings go on. What has and is happening in Ireland is sickening and the states role in it all is disgusting but it is unfair to suggest Ireland is unique with horrific events.

Red Pepper

http://www.irishexaminer.com/viewpoints/analysis/fears-mother-and-baby-homes-inquiry-will-not-go-far-enough-298233.html

"It advised the Government that at least nine institutions should be included in the inquiry. However, when answering a question about the scale of illegal adoptions in 2011, current Children’s Minister James Reilly cited a figure of 40 mother-and-baby homes.

A spreadsheet prepared by Adoption Rights Alliance, Justice for Magdalenes Research, and Seán Lucey of Queen’s University and given to former children’s minister Charlie Flanagan in June lists at least 150 institutions, from mother-and-baby homes and county homes to private nursing homes that were involved in the adoption of children born to unmarried mothers.

Unsurprisingly, campaigners wonder as to the attitude of Government behind closed doors and if the delays are part of a concerted effort to narrow the terms of reference as much as possible so as to limit the scale of any inquiry."

eire4

Those looking for justice have every right not to trust the government. We have the recent case of Louise O' Keefe who won her sex abuse case in January. This followed on from the Irish supreme court having thrown out the awards she was given by lower courts. At the time the government then sent letters to 135 other abuse victims from national schools that given their cases were essentially the same they were not liable. Yet when the European court rules that the governmnet did breach her human rights and they are liable for compensation the governments response is a compete 360 that well we will have to look at each case on its individual merits.
So I totally see where the campaigners are relectant to trust this government which seems more interested in damage limitation especially financially then doing what is right.

abaddon_ire

Government modus operandi. Pretend it might go away. The very same about everything that ever happens.

expectationlost

tandom burials, boo the HSE, oh no its the church again preventing people from being buried properly http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/martina-devlin/tandem-burials-highlight-pain-caused-by-churchs-rules-30825822.html

lazygal

Ugh so conflicted on the tandem burial things. As f-cked up as the theology is that a stillborn baby can't be baptised and buried in consecrated ground, I can kind of sort of understand why someone might try in whatever strange way to make the best of a terrible situation. Having read stories about fathers sneaking out to bury dead children close to a graveyard in the dead of night I guess it makes me kind of sort of see the skewed logic in the idea of burying a dead baby in a coffin.
Why a church would put parents through that in the first place is unbelievably barbaric though. I cannot begin to imagine how I would feel if I didn't know where my dead child was. And another point I heard related to graveyards. Most of them are owned by county councils, not churches, so why was there a question over the burial of unbaptised children? A county council provides burial plots for all and no faiths. What was going on there?

Waitsian

http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0109/671337-mother-and-baby-homes/

Thoughts on the terms of reference? Does it go far enough? Does it matter? Call me a cynic but I can't see them telling the whole truth on the matter.

Cabaal

mod9maple wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0109/671337-mother-and-baby-homes/

Thoughts on the terms of reference? Does it go far enough? Does it matter? Call me a cynic but I can't see them telling the whole truth on the matter.

Telling the whole truth would likely implicate the goverment, they don't want the liability

Baggy Trousers

mod9maple wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0109/671337-mother-and-baby-homes/

Thoughts on the terms of reference? Does it go far enough? Does it matter? Call me a cynic but I can't see them telling the whole truth on the matter.

It took them long enough and they were more or less what I expected.

Hotblack Desiato

mod9maple wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0109/671337-mother-and-baby-homes/

Thoughts on the terms of reference? Does it go far enough? Does it matter? Call me a cynic but I can't see them telling the whole truth on the matter.

Are RTE being completely naive, completely disingenuous, or what?

'Prosecutions may result' yeah right. All documentary evidence still existing will disappear in a series of mysterious fires. Timeframe is a leisurely three years, if any alleged perpetrators are still alive after that and after the DPP has had a couple more years to ponder, and on the off chance any happen to be convicted, they'll get suspended sentences on grounds of their age :mad:

Always drives me nuts when paedos who evaded justice for decades because of cover-ups, and because of the young age of their victims and the trauma and fear they experienced led to long delays in making complaints, and sometimes also because they f**ked off to the other side of the world on a ticket paid for by the RCC and have to be extradited, when they finally fetch up in court they get leniency because of their age. It seems the longer you get away with a crime in Ireland, the less punishment you deserve.

eire4

mod9maple wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0109/671337-mother-and-baby-homes/

Thoughts on the terms of reference? Does it go far enough? Does it matter? Call me a cynic but I can't see them telling the whole truth on the matter.

There is almost no chance the whole truth will come out as if it did then the government would be in the dock right alongside the church and the only thing I imagine the government will be interested in here is how to keep down compensation claims and damages as much as possible.

Hotblack Desiato

eire4 wrote: »

There is almost no chance the whole truth will come out as if it did then the government would be in the dock right alongside the church and the only thing I imagine the government will be interested in here is how to keep down compensation claims and damages as much as possible.

Can you blame them when the churches never pay their fair share?

Baggy Trousers

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Can you blame them when the churches never pay their fair share?

They never do but I hope we look at exposing and fining the big pharma companies that used our babies for illegal vaccine trials.

Baggy Trousers

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Can you blame them when the churches never pay their fair share?

http://www.cruxnow.com/church/2014/12/04/popes-financial-czar-vatican-has-millions-extra/

VATICAN CITY — The Vatican’s economy czar says the Holy See’s finances are in better shape than he thought, revealing that hundreds of millions of euros were kept off the balance sheet and that reforms are forging ahead to make the Vatican “boringly successful.”