Mass unmarked grave for 800 babies in Tuam

BlinkingLights

You can be sure they'll have lost all the records.

recedite

Tuam Archibishop horrified by this discovery.

The Archbishop said in a statement that he was “horrified and saddened” to hear of the large number of deceased children involved

He must have been living under a rock the last few years. Locals seem to have been fairly aware of the situation for a long time, and even this thread has been going since 2014.

Its looking like the politicians will now call for the bones to be removed from where they are now, and re-interred in a different hole somewhere else.
No doubt the Archbishop will be right there when it happens, at centre stage, saying a few holy words, with the politicians lined up on each side of him.

The whole charade will defuse public anger and distract from the real issue of why these kids died of neglect and malnutrition while the state and private individuals were paying the nuns for the board and lodging, and while the mothers were in there being used as virtual slave labour.

Bristolscale7

recedite wrote: »

Tuam Archibishop horrified by this discovery.

He must have been living under a rock the last few years. Locals seem to have been fairly aware of the situation for a long time, and even this thread has been going since 2014.

Its looking like the politicians will now call for the bones to be removed from where they are now, and re-interred in a different hole somewhere else.
No doubt the Archbishop will be right there when it happens, at centre stage, saying a few holy words, with the politicians lined up on each side of him.

The whole charade will defuse public anger and distract from the real issue of why these kids died of neglect and malnutrition while the state and private individuals were paying the nuns for the board and lodging, and while the mothers were in there being used as virtual slave labour.

Joe Duffy's next book project...

robindch

recedite wrote: »

Tuam Archibishop horrified by this discovery.

He must have been living under a rock the last few years. Locals seem to have been fairly aware of the situation for a long time, and even this thread has been going since 2014.

The linked article is from June 2014.

Cabaal

Didn't see the point in outrage and hate so I'm trying to make people think about their link to the catholic church, so I posted this.

Sit down for a moment and think about this,

Imagine you wanted your child to join a sports club and that sports club had almost a century of behavior in relation to abuse and victim silencing, would you want your child to join that club?

But if the club had since apologized for this behavior but at the same time this sports club refused to co-operate with investigations into these abuses, would you want your child to join that club?

What if the club owed 750million in compensation to the Irish state to pay the victims of its abuse, would you want your child to join that club still?

Now, what if that club also had a history of neglect of children in its care which resulted in the deaths of countless thousands (2x the nations mortality rate at the time). What if the club was also found dumping some of those body's into a dis-used septic tank? would you still want your child to join that club?

Would you want your child to join that club just so they aren't left out in school or as part of that clubs celebrations?

Would you want your child to join the club just because its the "done thing" and your family did the same to you when you were a child?

If you think its crazy that anybody would want their child to be part of such a club then ask yourself this, why are you doing the same with your child and the catholic church in Ireland?

Why are you outraged at the church and its crimes but at the same time you are happy to baptise your child, you are happy to do the communion and confirmation events.

I'm not suggesting that you don't believe in a god or even the bible, if you believe in god in your life and that helps you then go with it.

However, that doesn't for a second mean you must align yourself to the catholic church in Ireland. That doesn't for a second mean you need to sign your kid upto the catholic church. You can have a faith without doing this after all!

Please think for a moment before you blindly sign your child up to this "club", do it for the right reasons and don't just blindly do it so your child can make some money and have a bouncy castle for their communion and confirmation.

Deep down you know that if such a sports club existed locally to you that you wouldn't for a second even consider signing your child upto it.

Jan_de_Bakker

BlinkingLights wrote: »

I was never religious but I formally defected from the Catholic Church, when it was still possible a few years ago, because of these kinds of horrific incidents.

There's only so much tiptoeing around these subjects that I could do. This kind of horror just goes against every fibre of my being, everything I believe and everything I stand for and I just couldn't allow myself to be counted amongst the 'flock'. So, I defected and told them precisely why.

These things happened because people didn't stand up and allowed themselves to be bullied and horrific abuses to be covered up.

It's a profound failure of the organisation and absolutely unbelievable levels of corruption that allowed these things to happen.

Corruption doesn't have to be about money. It was deceit, lawbreaking, non-enforcement, blind-eye-turning, and behaving in a way that was so two-faced, and so contrary to the message they preached.

Was that the "Count me out" website ?

I missed the opportunity on that one, so angry that I did - I am still used
as a stat by the RCC as a practicing believer ...

Jan_de_Bakker

BlinkingLights wrote: »

It's called brain washing.

I mean, this is the same organisation that we are actually debating leaving in charge of the vast majority of schools and rolling out secular, publicly run schools is for some reason controversial ?!!?

Exactly, it's mind boggling that it's even a f*cking debate!!
It sickens me how many people still defend the RCC - even members of my own family :mad:

Jan_de_Bakker

aloyisious wrote: »

super furry posted this item in The Clerical Child Abuse Thread (merged). Ta, super furry.

http://www.thejournal.ie/list-names-tuam-babies-children-3270019-Mar2017/?utm_source=shortlink

Jesus, really hits you when you look through the list and see the ages.

RIP

Jan_de_Bakker

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

Umm, I think the biggest hypocrisy here is that the RCC claims to be 'pro life', then carries on like this when it thinks no one is looking! Also remember the "Children need their mothers for life, not just for 9 months" bull**** during the marriage referendum? Obviously that doesnt apply if the RCC can make money from forcibly taking them from their mother and selling them, only when they are at 'risk' of gay parents!

They are "pro life" when the baby is in utero, once he or she is born they don't give a **** ...they're on their own.

Jan_de_Bakker

Cabaal wrote: »

Didn't see the point in outrage and hate so I'm trying to make people think about their link to the catholic church, so I posted this.

Fantastic!!!!

This should be published in every media outlet ...

Get this on to the Irish Times ...

aloyisious

Jan_de_Bakker wrote: »

Was that the "Count me out" website ?

I missed the opportunity on that one, so angry that I did - I am still used
as a stat by the RCC as a practicing believer ...

Unfortunately for those who "defected" (as the church called the process by which one withdrew from it) Benedict & the Vatican cancelled the process so any "defections" done under it were annulled without (as far as I know) those who "defected" knowing that they were re-admitted to the fold. Para 2 in the link....

https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjP2-_W6MHSAhXKJ8AKHVhfBtoQFggdMAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FFormal_act_of_defection_from_the_Catholic_Church&usg=AFQjCNFVX-zEZVZlCouRs_2vsAbH0-qvyg

Seth Brundle

Jan_de_Bakker wrote: »

They are "pro life" when the baby is in utero, once he or she is born they don't give a **** ...they're on their own.

The RCC organisation has never cared about anything other than money!

Cabaal

kbannon wrote: »

The RCC organisation has never cared about anything other than money!

Nah, they also care about one other thing....power.

pauldla

Cabaal wrote: »

Didn't see the point in outrage and hate so I'm trying to make people think about their link to the catholic church, so I posted this.
.....

It's very good and makes an excellent point. I've just seen it being circulated on FB.

dar100

So, we have an order preaching morality and ethics, pro life, no children out of wedlock, anti this anti that, not allowed to marry etc etc

Yet, we physically, emotionally, sexually abuse and murder children and cover it up, and when confronted on it try to further hide and excuse it, and hide members by putting others at risk

What an sick and disgusting organisation, why is it that it is always those who claim to be the most helpful, that turn out to be the most horrendous? Il include the child and family agency in that category also

dar100

So, we have an order preaching morality and ethics, pro life, no children out of wedlock, anti this anti that, not allowed to marry etc etc

Yet, we physically, emotionally, sexually abuse and murder children and cover it up, and when confronted on it try to further hide and excuse it, and hide members by putting others at risk

What an sick and disgusting organisation, why is it that it is always those who claim to be the most helpful, that turn out to be the most horrendous? Il include the child and family agency in that category also

pwurple

I apologise to those women and children. Me. On my own behalf, and for any one in my family who lived here before me, and was involved in this.

How awfully bloody convenient is it to have a scapegoat in the church, means we can wash our own dirty hands of it, right? Sign that auld website there, and you're done. Ahhh public virtue signalling. Conscience is clear. Sins absolved.

Never mind that the elected govt  (ie, representing us, the irish people) charged them with doing this. Paid them to provide this. But nah, nevermind that, there's a scapegoat to haul out instead. 

It's disgusting how these women and children were treated, The catholic church was tasked with it here, and various other organisations got this disgusting job globally. If it wasn't them, it would have been someone else dealing with it. 


Women and children were seen as completely worthless by society, a drain. And it was up to very recently too. I have receipts for the laundries in my house, my very own family paid those women to wash our clothes. I asked how this could be justified, did they know what was going on? I was told they thought they were doing a good deed providing work for the women and subsidising their accommodation. 

They knew what was happening, because almost every family I know had encountered a child who was adopted out of those places, or had a girl in the family who ended up in there. Sending the pregnant women off somewhere out of site was a public service, siphoned out to whoever volunteered. Up there with alms houses, our hospitals and our schools, our charity sector and our social housing. It was outsourcing, and the buck lies with the government and the people. Us. We need to take responsibility, and make sure it doesn't continue to happen in our country, with our votes and our actions. 



I wish I could say I don't see it happening again, but I know damn well people are being treated just as badly right here today. Direct provision centers. People being trafficked in and sleeping on restaurant floors. Refugees we turn away. But nobody gives a toss about those people these days, they are the new worthless. 

What happened this child, this was 2016:
[font=arial, sans-serif]http://www.newstalk.com/Korean-woman-dies-at-direct-provision-centre-in-Cork[/font]

realdanbreen

With the advances in DNA testing etc you would imagine it would be possible to determine who the fathers of these babies were and where possible hold them to account.

Cabaal

realdanbreen wrote: »

With the advances in DNA testing etc you would imagine it would be possible to determine who the fathers of these babies were and where possible hold them to account.

The children were under the care of the catholic church at the time as such you couldn't hold the fathers at fault for the deaths.

The duty of care was to the church, not the fathers. You may not like that but the church made it that way once the women were under there care as well. The church only have themselves to blame.

Trying to blame the fathers in this instance is as idiotic as trying to blame a parent for sending their kid to school where the kid is then abused or killed. While the child is in the school the duty of care is to the school. Not the parent!

Mr. CooL ICE

realdanbreen wrote: »

With the advances in DNA testing etc you would imagine it would be possible to determine who the fathers of these babies were and where possible hold them to account.

Account for what?

Cabaal

Nicolas Cage wrote: »

Account for what?

Account for nothing,
His post is nothing more then a seriously poor attend to deflect blame away from the church.

The church created a society where "it knew best", it pushed the idea that these homes were the best places for these "fallen women". These women that committed not just a sin but a mortal sin, being a mortal sin meant it was equal to murder in the church's books.

The church created a perfect storm for them to have power and control over the masses. Yes some people didn't follow what they said but those that spoke out were quickly set upon by the local community at the order of the church.

It was normal for priests to order a family or community to turn against a person that had done something that the priests didn't agree with, such as make a claim of abuse against a priest, a person leaving the priesthood etc.

I had this happen to one of my own relations where the priest tried to make such orders because a relative left the priesthood. Truly sickening stuff.

realdanbreen

Cabaal wrote: »

Account for nothing,
His post is nothing more then a seriously poor attend to deflect blame away from the church.

.

Don't be putting words in my mouth, I am not attempting to deflect blame from anybody or anyone. All those involved in treating pregnant women as dirt and all that went with it should be held responsible but also for far too long, even to the present day I would suggest, it's the women who were made to suffer. What about the fathers of all these children, many of them were the so called 'pillars' of society, why are they not make take responsibility abdicating their responsibility .

recedite

pwurple wrote: »

I wish I could say I don't see it happening again, but I know damn well people are being treated just as badly right here today. Direct provision centers. People being trafficked in and sleeping on restaurant floors. Refugees we turn away. But nobody gives a toss about those people these days, they are the new worthless.

What happened this child, this was 2016:
[font=arial, sans-serif]http://www.newstalk.com/Korean-woman-dies-at-direct-provision-centre-in-Cork[/font]

In fairness, the modern day examples you cite are nothing like what happened at Tuam. The state, or indeed society, cannot be held accountable for the welfare of illegal immigrants who remain hidden from the authorities.
The South Korean woman appears to have had ongoing psychiatric problems, leading to her suicide. She came from Seoul, which is an extremely prosperous city. I can't think of any valid reason why she would have been entitled to political asylum or refugee status in Ireland. That she was kept in direct provision and treated by a doctor while she was here seems to have been an act of charity by the state. Its a tragedy alright, but not one of our making.
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/woman-in-direct-provision-centre-took-her-own-life-441001.html

realdanbreen

recedite wrote: »

In fairness, the modern day examples you cite are nothing like what happened at Tuam. The state, or indeed society, cannot be held accountable for the welfare of illegal immigrants who remain hidden from the authorities.
The South Korean woman appears to have had ongoing psychiatric problems, leading to her suicide. She came from Seoul, which is an extremely prosperous city. I can't think of any valid reason why she would have been entitled to political asylum or refugee status in Ireland. That she was kept in direct provision and treated by a doctor while she was here seems to have been an act of charity by the state. Its a tragedy alright, but not one of our making.
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/woman-in-direct-provision-centre-took-her-own-life-441001.html

Of course what happened in Tuam was awful(BTW we need to be told exactly what happened in Tuam as some are of the opinion that children were excecuted in Tuam) but as a society its all very well to be shocked at what happened in the past but we should also be exercised about the humans that are suffering today.

looksee

realdanbreen wrote: »

Of course what happened in Tuam was awful(BTW we need to be told exactly what happened in Tuam as some are of the opinion that children were excecuted in Tuam) but as a society its all very well to be shocked at what happened in the past but we should also be exercised about the humans that are suffering today.

Mod: This is no doubt true, but is the subject for another thread. This one is about the Tuam situation.

pH

realdanbreen wrote: »

Of course what happened in Tuam was awful(BTW we need to be told exactly what happened in Tuam as some are of the opinion that children were excecuted in Tuam) but as a society its all very well to be shocked at what happened in the past but we should also be exercised about the humans that are suffering today.

If the mortality rate claimed by the journal.ie (31%) for under 1 year old children is to be believed for 1947 (the year they have analysed) then it does seem that 2 years after the Nazis were defeated in Europe, here in Ireland we had our only concentration camps were the illegitimate were being systematically eradicated.

Nothing else could explain how a national mortality rate of 7% for infants up to 1 year old could be raised by almost five-fold to the 31% achieved within this home.

journal.ie (source of 31% figure for 1947)
http://www.thejournal.ie/tuam-infant-deaths-1563994-Jul2014/

cso (source of the 7% national average figure for 1940s)
http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/releasespublications/documents/vitalstats/2010/chapter42010.pdf

magicbastarder

realdanbreen wrote: »

but as a society its all very well to be shocked at what happened in the past but

but but but.

Seth Brundle

realdanbreen wrote: »

With the advances in DNA testing etc you would imagine it would be possible to determine who the fathers of these babies were and where possible hold them to account.

Leaving aside the fact that the fathers whilst not supporting the children, didn't directly contribute towards their premature deaths, DNA tests will reveal if the father is related to one of the dead infants, *if* you have a sample from the father!

Sofiztikated

realdanbreen wrote: »

Don't be putting words in my mouth, I am not attempting to deflect blame from anybody or anyone. All those involved in treating pregnant women as dirt and all that went with it should be held responsible but also for far too long, even to the present day I would suggest, it's the women who were made to suffer. What about the fathers of all these children, many of them were the so called 'pillars' of society, why are they not make take responsibility abdicating their responsibility .

You "could" go after the 1000's that were involved with societal issues, and get nowhere.

Or you "could" go after the organisation that facilitated human traficking, neglect, human experiments, falsification of records, and manslaughter (I wouldn't be too sure on how this would fair out, but I'd like someone to give it a shot.)

realdanbreen

looksee wrote: »

Mod: This is no doubt true, but is the subject for another thread. This one is about the Tuam situation.

That's fair enough and seeing as there are inquiry's and tribunals for just about everything nowadays there definitely is a need for one here and soon.