Mass unmarked grave for 800 babies in Tuam

Cabaal

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

If the RC church is simply reflecting the will of the people, why has it opposed the referendums on divorce, children's rights, gay marriage, abortion?

If we take the marriage equality ref,
If the catholic groups hadn't started that utter crap about "every child deserves a mother and father" that had 0% relevance to the marriage ref as adaptions etc were covered by totally seperate legislation then the marriage ref likely would have gone in favour of the yes vote by an even larger margin then it did,

The fact that it went so much in favour of the yes vote shows that the catholic viewpoint on gay people most certainly does not reflect society.

Its all about creating fear and miss information by the catholic groups, they did the exact same with "hello divorce, bye bye daddy" during the divorce ref. An utter lie as only a complete ****en nutbag wants to keep a marriage together at all costs.

If the catholic church is a mirror of society then the following things would still be illegal
- Condoms
- being gay
- marriage equality
- divorce
- women working after marriage
- single mothers receiving state support

Instead we only have to look back to the mother and child situation in the 1950's to know that the catholic church has gone against any progressing change, here was a progressive change the state wanted to do and the church said it was against its moral teachings.

Bristolscale7

The mental gymnastics of christians is impressive: to embrace moral relativism for Tuam while at the same time putting forth timeless claims elsewhere.

Cabaal

Bristolscale7 wrote: »

The mental gymnastics of christians is impressive: to embrace moral relativism for Tuam while at the same time putting forth timeless claims elsewhere.

Anything to protect mother church from scandal,
Sure isn't it the reason why the Vatican came up with a rulebook for how to move around child molesting priests.

This mindset is ingrained in priests, bishops, cardinals & the pope, only stands to reason that some of it would rub off on its followers.

frostyjacks

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

If the RC church is simply reflecting the will of the people, why has it opposed the referendums on divorce, children's rights, gay marriage, abortion?

Why was it against legal availability of contraceptives, even for non-catholics?

Not buying it - the Church is not simply a mirror of society - it actively tries to make society reflect its vision, and it is a dark vision.

As I've said before, if these young women had simply listened to the Church and not got themselves pregnant, then their families wouldn't have sent them to these homes.

The Church's vision has served us well for two millennia. It's only recently that the toxic spread of Marxism and feminism, fuelled by globalist elites like Soros, has the fabric of society started to unravel.

smacl

frostyjacks wrote: »

As I've said before, if these young women had simply listened to the Church and not got themselves pregnant, then their families wouldn't have sent them to these homes.

Basic biology lesson for you here Frostyjacks, they didn't get themselves pregnant, men did. Did they not teach you that at Catholic school?

Cabaal

frostyjacks wrote: »

As I've said before, if these young women had simply listened to the Church and not got themselves pregnant, then their families wouldn't have sent them to these homes.

whataboutery,
The fact is women got pregnant, women will always get pregnant.
It might be because of rape, incest or consensual sex. (there are victims stories telling of all three)

But one of the big factors at the time that played a part was the total and utter lack of sex education and that fault lies solely with the church as it opposed any sex education, it also opposed any proper medical care being provided by the state to women.

The fact is women got pregnant and the church who received money from the state and the church with a duty of care of looking after these women and children and they failed, this cannot be debated, it cannot be defended, it is a fact. Yet here you are making pathetic attempts to deflect blame from the church.

The Church's vision has served us well for two millennia. It's only recently that the toxic spread of Marxism and feminism, fuelled by globalist elites like Soros, has the fabric of society started to unravel.

Indeed it has, it's always done a fantastic job.
If it wasn't starting wars it was butcher muslims and others in other parts of the globe, it was burning women claiming they were witches or it was killing natives who refused to convert to his religion.

Oh, yes I almost forgot to mention that its priests and nuns were abusing children, best not to forget that.

It's served the human race so very well, such a lovely peaceful and caring religion.
:rolleyes:


Seriously frosty, your attempts at deflecting are an utter farce, give it up

Delirium

frostyjacks wrote: »

As I've said before, if these young women had simply listened to the Church and not got themselves pregnant, then their families wouldn't have sent them to these homes.

That's weird coz I know single women who have gotten pregnant and haven't been interned as a result. It oddly seems to relate to the declining influence the Church has on society.

The Church's vision has served us well for two millennia. It's only recently that the toxic spread of Marxism and feminism, fuelled by globalist elites like Soros, has the fabric of society started to unravel.

It's odd that you would see interning pregnant women, child death due to neclect and/or abuse, and mass graves as having 'served us well'.

Zubeneschamali

frostyjacks wrote: »

As I've said before, if these young women had simply listened to the Church and not got themselves pregnant, then their families wouldn't have sent them to these homes.

And if you hadn't typed that nonsense out as if you believed it, we wouldn't all be laughing at you.

jimgoose

frostyjacks wrote: »

As I've said before, if these young women had simply listened to the Church and not got themselves pregnant, then their families wouldn't have sent them to these homes.

The Church's vision has served us well for two millennia. It's only recently that the toxic spread of Marxism and feminism, fuelled by globalist elites like Soros, has the fabric of society started to unravel.

Matthew 25:40

.......

This post has been deleted.

Cabaal

....... wrote: »

I find it difficult to believe that any reasonable person would say something like the above.

I feel like you are just saying something offensive to annoy people rather than say something honest.

Maybe his long term plan is to actually get more people to dislike the church?

robindch

frostyjacks wrote: »

As I've said before, if these young women had simply listened to the Church and not got themselves pregnant, then their families wouldn't have sent them to these homes.

The Church's vision has served us well for two millennia.

Not sure how well this "vision" would have served your church if Mary's parents had packed her off to the first century version of a Mother and Child home, there to see Jesus taken from her and sent to live with somebody else.

frostyjacks

....... wrote: »

I find it difficult to believe that any reasonable person would say something like the above.

I feel like you are just saying something offensive to annoy people rather than say something honest.

Well the Church has a marginal role in society now, and children are still being abused, women mistreated. How can that be explained?

Maybe some women were indeed treated less than favourably in these homes, but for others it might have been a rewarding experience.

If anybody had a viable alternative for what to do with these kind of women back then, they were very quiet. But everybody is an expert now of course.

Esel

frostyjacks wrote: »

Well the Church has a marginal role in society now, and children are still being abused, women mistreated. How can that be explained?

Maybe some women were indeed treated less than favourably in these homes, but for others it might have been a rewarding experience.

If anybody had a viable alternative for what to do with these kind of women back then, they were very quiet. But everybody is an expert now of course.

"these kind of women"... Is there not a novena or a legion meeting you should be at?

.......

This post has been deleted.

aloyisious

frostyjacks wrote: »

As I've said before, if these young women had simply listened to the Church and not got themselves pregnant, then their families wouldn't have sent them to these homes.

The Church's vision has served us well for two millennia. It's only recently that the toxic spread of Marxism and feminism, fuelled by globalist elites like Soros, has the fabric of society started to unravel.

If only the boys and men had listened to the church and not got the girls and women pregnant, then their families wouldn't have sent them to........ oops.

On this day and the newspaper headlines that's in it for Galway, are you harking back to when such matters of infidelity were not spoken of in polite society but kept locked away in the (family skeleton) closet? God forbid that the truth be told.

aloyisious

frostyjacks wrote: »

Well the Church has a marginal role in society now, and children are still being abused, women mistreated. How can that be explained?

Maybe some women were indeed treated less than favourably in these homes, but for others it might have been a rewarding experience.

If anybody had a viable alternative for what to do with these kind of women back then, they were very quiet. But everybody is an expert now of course.

1. Such behaviour became role-modelishly acceptable to Irish society over the decades at the hands of the teachers, out of sight, out of mind. It'll
take some years to unlearn such lessons, regardless of the teachers.

2. It sounds like you have doubts and at the same time are being acerbic towards the experiences the girls and women went through in the homes.

3. God and Jesus were probably shouting out in protest at the top of their lungs, only their subordinates weren't listening.

jimgoose

aloyisious wrote: »

...God and Jesus were probably shouting out in protest at the top of their lungs, only their subordinates weren't listening.

What fascinates me is the notion of, assuming it's all true and the just and unjust are raised up at the end of time to face the Head Buck-Cat Himself and give account of themselves, these people's reaction to the question "What in the fortified fuck did you think I, Almighty God, creator of the Cosmos and of every living and non-living thing, would think about the way you treated innocent women and babies??" :pac:

Hotblack Desiato

frostyjacks wrote: »

As I've said before, if these young women had simply listened to the Church and not got themselves pregnant, then their families wouldn't have sent them to these homes.

If their families had listened to the teachings attributed to Jesus, they might have been more charitable and accepting, he was the child of an unconventional famliy after all...

The Church's vision has served us well for two millennia.

The Catholic Church has left a trail of blood and human misery in its wake for two millennia.

magicbastarder

frostyjacks wrote: »

Well the Church has a marginal role in society now, and children are still being abused, women mistreated. How can that be explained?

at the risk of feeding the troll, children are still being abused and women mistreated. but to a far lesser extent by an organisation by an organisation which still retains a lot of power and which claims to represent god on earth.

that's still the bit i can't wrap my head around. that so many people still believe the church can be the best organisation to represent god to us earthlings. i mean, the AA (as in automobile association) breakdown service would strike me as a better organisation for a deity to pick to represent him or herself to us earthlings, than the catholic church.

byhookorbycrook

One of "These Kind of women" was my mother. What exactly was she guilty of???

BloodBath

frostyjacks wrote: »

As I've said before, if these young women had simply listened to the Church and not got themselves pregnant, then their families wouldn't have sent them to these homes.

The Church's vision has served us well for two millennia. It's only recently that the toxic spread of Marxism and feminism, fuelled by globalist elites like Soros, has the fabric of society started to unravel.

Oh yes, let's go back to the good ole days of open racism/xenophobia, sexism, homophobia and total ignorance.

You would be right at home.

Cabaal

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2017/03/24/justice-there-is-nun/

A religious order that owes millions of euros in compensation for child abuse will retain ownership of the new National Maternity Hospital after it is built with more than €200 million of taxpayers’ money.

The new hospital will be built on the Elm Park site at St Vincent’s University Hospital in Dublin. St Vincent’s Healthcare Group is run and owned by the Sisters of Charity, which has paid only €2 million of the €5 million it offered to contribute in reparations to abuse victims. Its most recent payment was in 2013.

The religious order will own the maternity hospital as well as a new independent company that has been established to guarantee corporate governance, but the HSE has said that its interests will be protected once construction is completed.

The HSE said the land at the St Vincent’s campus was being made available for the new hospital at no cost to the state and that “appropriate security arrangements” would be put in place to protect state interests.

CptMackey

Cabaal wrote: »

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2017/03/24/justice-there-is-nun/

This makes no sense to me. It boggles the mind.
Who has sanctioned this? They owe the state millions but we are giving them ownership of a maternity hospital. If it happened in a monty python film you would laugh at the ridiculous nature of it

aloyisious

CptMackey wrote: »

This makes no sense to me. It boggles the mind.
Who has sanctioned this? They owe the state millions but we are giving them ownership of a maternity hospital. If it happened in a monty python film you would laugh at the ridiculous nature of it

The HSE are providing the funding..... The cost of building the new hospital is estimated to be around €150m.

Government approval for the project was given in May 2013 and it is included in the HSE's capital plans.

https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjvnZeB5_TSAhUKB8AKHYGNDZAQFggbMAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.rte.ie%2Fnews%2F2016%2F1124%2F834218-vincents-holles-maternity%2F&usg=AFQjCNFGfEI6h9qc0JRPrp4LjCACXsuWqw

looksee

Honestly, its a joke. What can be done about it? How is an order of nuns any more competent to run a hospital than a secular committee? What special qualification do they have that the state should hand over a piece of the infrastructure that should be the property of the people in a republic.

What can be done to stop this nonsense? Can a petition serve any purpose? Write to the Taoiseach? Any serious suggestions?

Edit - answer to one of my questions above - how are they qualified, apparently they are not! http://www.irishtimes.com/business/health-pharma/dublin-hospital-group-lost-10-86m-1.1643953

Overall, the hospital group, which comprises two publicly- funded hospitals and a private hospital, lost €10.86 million in 2012, compared with a loss of €9 million the previous year, according to consolidated accounts for the group.
The Religious Sisters of Charity owns St Vincent’s Healthcare Group Ltd, the accounts of which have just been filed.
The group includes the private and public hospitals in Ballsbridge, and St Michael’s Hospital, Dún Laoghaire.
Directors’ remuneration came to €569,292.

Cabaal

The apologists are out in force in the media, relations or the same person with a slight name change?

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2017/03/27/uncanny-21/

Sunday Independent, March 18, 2017




Sunday Independent, March 26, 2017




Of course the nuns did no such thing,
They were paid by the state or by the parents of the women, in many cases they were paid by both and the nuns also got money after selling off the baby.

Free of charge my arse!


Of course a quick google shows Patrick is a big catholic fan, he doesn't seem to like anything critical of the church...including Enda Kenny
http://www.irishcatholic.ie/article/timing-papal-visit-ireland

recedite

The HSE said the land at the St Vincent’s campus was being made available for the new hospital at no cost to the state

I'm sure plenty of developers could supply a bit of land if the state was willing to build a multi-milion euro facility on it for them, free of charge.

The issue here is the same as with the schools. Religious orders typically start off with some miserable little property, and over the years the state sinks more and more money into their privately owned property, without ever getting any ownership rights.
The state doesn't want to start again on a new publicly owned site, because it has already put so much money into the privately owned one. Its a case of constantly throwing good money after bad.

The owners will argue that it makes no difference who owns the facility, as long as it is run as a public facility; which holds true, until the day the nuns/trust decide to sell to a developer.

The state could force a handover by withdrawing all public funding from privately owned schools and hospitals. Unfortunately there is no political will for that, yet.

robindch

Fresh surveys of Tuam mother and baby home to go ahead

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/fresh-surveys-of-tuam-mother-and-baby-home-to-go-ahead-1.3104715

Irish Times wrote:

Minister for Children Katherine Zappone has said decisions about further exhumations from the former mother and babies home in Tuam, Co Galway are a matter for Government rather than the county coroner.

Remains were found during archaeological work initiated last year for the Commission on the Investigation of Mother and Baby Homes and have been referred to the coroner.

Asked if further excavations would take place under the authority of the coroner, Ms Zappone said she did not think that was necessarily the case. ?The decision to do further excavation as well as exhumation in terms of this kind of context, where we?re dealing with effectively a mass grave, are decisions effectively for Government, as I understand it,? she said. Ms Zappone was speaking after announcing in the D?il fresh geophysical surveys of the burial site.

She said she had appointed forensic archaeologist Niamh McCullagh to lead the work and bring together a team of international experts in juvenile osteoarchaeology, forensic anthropology, DNA analysis and archaeology to provide the necessary advices. She told the D?il the commission would make an initial report by the end of the month.

Ms Zappone said the team of experts would include: Hugh Tuller, a US forensic anthropologist; Dr Tim Clayton, a UK forensic scientist who was world-renowned in the field of DNA testing; Dr Linda Lynch, an expert in juvenile osteoarcheology; and Aidan Harte, an expert in Irish archaeology and remote sensing. She said the team would also consult with additional experts as it considered appropriate.

Ms Zappone was asked what the coroner had done in respect of the limited number of remains that had been reported as found. ?I understand that the coroner has begun to take a look at this, has not made any decisions, I suppose, in relation to suspicious deaths and has really tried to take a look at the various circumstances that are in this very exceptional case,? she said. ?In the context of that I felt that it was necessary to bring in a wider set of experts in order to help us to understand if we did wish to exhume, or further excavate or try to identify the remains. Those are the kinds of things things that the families and the survivors wish to have us to make decisions on. So we will do that work now; in the meantime, if the coroner has to come to say anything further to us we will also take that into account.?

Meanwhile, the appointment of international experts to advise Government has been welcomed by local historian Catherine Corless. She said she hoped the announcement on Tuesday by Ms Zappone would lead to the identification of children?s remains. ?It is a step forward. I?d say most of the survivors are happy with that . . . she hasn?t dilly-dallied on that. She has done what she said she?d do,? Ms Corless said.

She said there was ?international pressure? on Ireland. The New York Times was especially interested in the story, she said.

Zubeneschamali

I am not sure exactly what Zappone expects these experts to tell her.

Even if it was possible, do we really want to excavate 1000 babies remains, DNA test them, DNA test people descended from women who were at the home, identify the nearest relatives and then have the babies reburied?

It seems a bit of a pointless circus to me.

We've known the basics of what happened for years now: hundreds of babies and children died at the home from neglect, and the nuns buried them onsite in unmarked disused sewers rather than in a marked graveyard. What will further investigation of the remains add to that?