Random Running Questions

walshb

FIFA2004 wrote: »

Is there any particular do's and dont's with recovery runs, and recovery after a race in general?

Wouldn't it have a lot to do with how you feel? You may be very very sore and really unable to do a recovery run. Or, you could feel failry ok and be well up for it. Best advice to is to listen to your body, and feel your legs.

FIFA2004

Thanks everyone! don't feel too bad so might try something slower than usual this evening!

Myles Splitz

FIFA2004 wrote: »

Is there any particular do's and dont's with recovery runs, and recovery after a race in general?

General advice

- Hydration and nutrition (pizza and beers after a PB is grand after a target race but could be the difference between a few days extra recovery needed.

- Slow as needed. My old coach and I used to hit high 9 min pace after races (he was a 2.16 man at the time) its just about reducing neural activity in the muscles and aiding bloodflow. The days after than it should be slower than your normal easy pace

- Don't underestimate the benefits of a power nap in the afternoon

- Don't stand around too long after a race getting cold. Change into dry clothes at the least and extra layer as your immune system will have just taken a bashing.

- Don't be afraid to drop mid week session if more recovery is needed.

FIFA2004

Myles Splitz wrote: »

General advice

- Hydration and nutrition (pizza and beers after a PB is grand after a target race but could be the difference between a few days extra recovery needed.

- Slow as needed. My old coach and I used to hit high 9 min pace after races (he was a 2.16 man at the time) its just about reducing neural activity in the muscles and aiding bloodflow. The days after than it should be slower than your normal easy pace

- Don't underestimate the benefits of a power nap in the afternoon

- Don't stand around too long after a race getting cold. Change into dry clothes at the least and extra layer as your immune system will have just taken a bashing.

- Don't be afraid to drop mid week session if more recovery is needed.

Thanks Myles!!

ultrapercy

What are people's opinions on racing a 10k 2 weeks before a marathon? Good or bad idea?

Krusty_Clown

ultrapercy wrote: »

What are people's opinions on racing a 10k 2 weeks before a marathon? Good or bad idea?

It's included in a number of marathon training programs, if memory serves. Pfitzinger and Douglas IIRC. Though I think it's usually positioned as a tune-up race, rather than a eyeballs-out-chase a PB kind of activity. So it wouldn't be unusual. In general, if you're the type of person who can run a good race without over-committing, and the type of person who rarely suffers injuries and recovers quickly, then it shouldn't be outside the realms of feasibility as an alternative to a session.

On the other hand, if you're someone whose recent races point to a ground-breaking performance in the marathon, shouldn't it all be about the marathon with two weeks to go? Will racing a 10k two weeks out provide any advantage beyond a bit of a confidence booster? Better to run the 10k after the super-mega marathon?

conavitzky

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

It's included in a number of marathon training programs, if memory serves. Pfitzinger and Douglas IIRC. Though I think it's usually positioned as a tune-up race, rather than a eyeballs-out-chase a PB kind of activity. So it wouldn't be unusual. In general, if you're the type of person who can run a good race without over-committing, and the type of person who rarely suffers injuries and recovers quickly, then it shouldn't be outside the realms of feasibility as an alternative to a session.

On the other hand, if you're someone whose recent races point to a ground-breaking performance in the marathon, shouldn't it all be about the marathon with two weeks to go? Will racing a 10k two weeks out provide any advantage beyond a bit of a confidence booster? Better to run the 10k after the super-mega marathon?

+1 to this

ClashCityRocker

Myles Splitz wrote: »

It depends on the type of tempo you are doing

As mentioned the general understanding of tempo refers to Lactate Threshold which is the race pace you can hold for an hour however on any given day cumulative fatigue, course profile, weather conditions (and so on) can play an impact which can slightly slow this pace to closer to HM pace.

As calculators go this isn't the worst one for paces

http://www.runningprs.com/runnerscalculator.htm

Implementing the pace in relation to sessions I would advise the following

Threshold - 15-20 minute quicker tempo (or cruise intervals)
Tempo - 25-35 min straight tempo run
Moderate (Marathon pace) - Longer tempos- 45 min to 1 hour

All have there place personally I am using alot more of the first at the moment as I get closer to race specific work for 10k however over winter was using the last two alot more.

Another one which I found pretty accurate for anyone with reasonable aerobic fitness is 5k pace + 25 seconds per mile as a general guide if you have raced a shorter distance recently rather than trying to base it on target times

That calculator looks useful, thanks for linking. What is meant by CV and AP paces?

Dubgal72

Am doing 400s in Greystones tomorrow, only lanes available are 5 and 6. Where do we start???

Is it always a white line like on here?

http://www.iaaf.org/download/download?filename=90af96aa-3d93-4e8f-a295-40c0c971c20f.pdf

KielyUnusual

Dubgal72 wrote: »

Am doing 400s in Greystones tomorrow, only lanes available are 5 and 6. Where do we start???

Is it always a white line like on here?

http://www.iaaf.org/download/download?filename=90af96aa-3d93-4e8f-a295-40c0c971c20f.pdf

Just go from the 400m start in the 5th or 6th lane

Yea, should be a solid white line. It should be obvious if you start from lane 1 and see the staggered starts all the way out to lane 5.

Dubgal72

KielyUnusual wrote: »

Just go from the 400m start in the 5th or 6th lane

Yea, should be a solid white line. It should be obvious if you start from lane 1 and see the staggered starts all the way out to lane 5.

Thanks. Bit of deja vu from last year with 200s....when I got there I was totally bamboozled by all the other markings....

wrstan

Dubgal72 wrote: »

Am doing 400s in Greystones tomorrow, only lanes available are 5 and 6. Where do we start???

Is it always a white line like on here?

http://www.iaaf.org/download/download?filename=90af96aa-3d93-4e8f-a295-40c0c971c20f.pdf

Well the stagger for the 400m starts just over 7m from the start of the preceding lane. For 200m it should be half that.

So from the finish of the home straight walk about 7m for lane 2, then go out to lane three and go out another 7m and so on. The 400m start will be a solid white line around that point. Once you find it in lane 2 all the other lanes should be easy to find.

Dubgal72

wrstan wrote: »

Well the stagger for the 400m starts just over 7m from the start of the preceding lane. For 200m it should be half that.

So from the finish of the home straight walk about 7m for lane 2, then go out to lane three and go out another 7m and so on. The 400m start will be a solid white line around that point. Once you find it in lane 2 all the other lanes should be easy to find.

Thanks B. We'll see if S has been paying attention on the juvenile nights training, she should know You were flying the other day btw.


Ps how long is 7m......:p

Sunny Dayz

Hi all - I'm at the lower slower end of the running spectrum (5km approx 31mins).
Two runs on Easter Saturday and I want to do both!!
I'm visiting the inlaws at the weekend. I want to get in their local Parkrun. It's about a half hour drive away and any time we've done it we've usually treated ourselves to brekkie after.
Then their local sports ground are holding a fundraising 5km around noon and I would like to support it.
Would it be pushing too much to fit the two of them in? Say leaving parkrun area around 10:15, go for brekkie and be back in the home town around 11:30. Freshen up and do second 5km. Or would I be spreading myself too thinly?

Maximus Alexander

If you're planning to race them then I'd say forget about it. Otherwise it's just the equivalent of running a 10k with a nice break in between which shouldn't be an issue...

El Caballo

ClashCityRocker wrote: »

That calculator looks useful, thanks for linking. What is meant by CV and AP paces?

This could get messy:pac:. CV is critical velocity. This is a training zone developed by a guy called Tom "Tinman" Shwartz who used to post a lot on letsrun and recently helped to coach a highschool runner to a 3:57 mile. CV pace is generally recognized as 5k pace + 12-20sec/mile slower or 90% of Vo2max.

The idea behind CV is to build endurance in what are called intermediate fast twitch muscles. We are all born with slow twitch and fast twitch muscles that cannot be changed, ST being endurance based and FT being explosive. But there is a grey area of musle fibers called intermediate fibres which are highly adaptable and changeable by the way they are trained. The idea behind CV pace is to target these type IIa intermediate FT muscle fibers to be more fatigue resistant while improving Vo2max and Lactate Threshold. Tinman based his whole training around CV pace and uses it year round. I actually done two of these workouts recently, a few examples of a CV workout would be.

8x800m @5k pace +16s/mile w/60s Rec
5-6x1000m @ " " "
3-4x2000m @ """ w/2min Rec

Tinman recommends around a minute rest per 1000m ran as you can see above.

The workout shouldn't be very hard, moderate would be the goal. When doing CV paced workouts, the overall volume depends on the ability of the runner. The faster you are, the more volume you can do. you can also add something like 4-6x200m @ 1500m pace w/90s recovery to help with turnover after the workout. Can't help you with AP.

Myles Splitz

El Caballo wrote: »

This could get messy:pac:. CV is critical velocity. This is a training zone developed by a guy called Tom "Tinman" Shwartz who used to post a lot on letsrun and recently helped to coach a highschool runner to a 3:57 mile. CV pace is generally recognized as 5k pace + 12-20sec/mile slower or 90% of Vo2max.

The idea behind CV is to build endurance in what are called intermediate fast twitch muscles. We are all born with slow twitch and fast twitch muscles that cannot be changed, ST being endurance based and FT being explosive. But there is a grey area of musle fibers called intermediate fibres which are highly adaptable and changeable by the way they are trained. The idea behind CV pace is to target these type IIa intermediate FT muscle fibers to be more fatigue resistant while improving Vo2max and Lactate Threshold. Tinman based his whole training around CV pace and uses it year round. I actually done two of these workouts recently, a few examples of a CV workout would be.

8x800m @5k pace +16s/mile w/60s Rec
5-6x1000m @ " " "
3-4x2000m @ """ w/2min Rec

Tinman recommends around a minute rest per 1000m ran as you can see above.

The workout shouldn't be very hard, moderate would be the goal. When doing CV paced workouts, the overall volume depends on the ability of the runner. The faster you are, the more volume you can do. you can also add something like 4-6x200m @ 1500m pace w/90s recovery to help with turnover after the workout. Can't help you with AP.

Messy is the word

In terms of the descriptions to simplify it

Term| Meaning| prescribed pace| Rough equivalent|
CV | Criticial Velocity | 35-40 min race pace| 5m-15k race pace (depending on level)
AP | Aerobic Power|12-16 min race pace| 3k-5kish pace (Depending on level)
Vo2max| Vo2 max| 8-11 min race pace| 1m-3k race pace (depending on level)

This is based of calculator attached however and the coaches own training philisophies. Aerobic Power would come under the vO2 max bracket in many training manuals as both aim to develop this to an extent (similiar sessions with recoveries of generally 75%-100% of rep time depending on which end of the spectrum you are running.

ThisRegard

Related to another ongoing thread at the moment, and previous discussions in this one, where Tempo runs are being discussed.

I've ran them based on how they're described in the Hal Higdon plans, i.e. start of nice and handy, building up to a crescendo at mid point and gradually easing off again again.

But I've seen them described differently over the different threads, is it depending on the training plan you're following, or do people just have different ideas of what a tempo run should be?

Myles Splitz

ThisRegard wrote: »

Related to another ongoing thread at the moment, and previous discussions in this one, where Tempo runs are being discussed.

I've ran them based on how they're described in the Hal Higdon plans, i.e. start of nice and handy, building up to a crescendo at mid point and gradually easing off again again.

But I've seen them described differently over the different threads, is it depending on the training plan you're following, or do people just have different ideas of what a tempo run should be?

Problem is the term tempo is that it is a catch all umbrella term a bit like "intervals" or "speed work"

With Hal Higdon the plan is designed as an entry level plan to get novice runners used to running some of the terms might be technically inaccurate but are perfectly suitable in his own explanations of getting the general right effort level without being too technical or prescriptive

His description of a tempo as you have mentioned above to me is perfect for people new to this type of running. Start easy build up the effort to moderate and back off before you are digging too deep this is to avoid the arbitrary descriptions like "one hour race pace" which are correct to the letter of the law but for someone who is only getting to start to experience perceived effort or indeed any sort of sustained runs it completely pointless as it doesn't have any bearing in the context of the athlete doing the session.

ThisRegard

So maybe I'm approaching them too easy. I'm far from new but I reckon his was the first description I came across so have stuck with that approach ever since.

Myles Splitz

ThisRegard wrote: »

So maybe I'm approaching them too easy. I'm far from new but I reckon his was the first description I came across so have stuck with that approach ever since.

It's not a bad session at any level and progression runs like that can yield great gains but the different stimulus could help

In terms of tempos here would be my own personal guidelines

15-20 min continuous or cruise intervals @ 1 hour race effort (can be from 5m-HM pace depending on level
25-40 min @ approx 70-80 min race pace (approx 10 mile -25k race pace depending on level)
40-60 @ approx 2 hour race pace (HM - MP)

The first two lend themselves to have similar effects however the effort level increases with duration which is why I have you slow down a shade on these.

All these can come under the term tempo and have benefits. There a number of ways to skin a cat so mixing these into your training can help but I wouldn't abandon your current format of run altogether and perhaps substitute each of these in ever second prescribed session in your plan if you were looking for a change in approach.

Chivito550

Dubgal72 wrote: »

Thanks B. We'll see if S has been paying attention on the juvenile nights training, she should know You were flying the other day btw.


Ps how long is 7m......:p

In each lane there tends to be 3 starting lines: 800m start, 400m start and 4x400 relay start. The 400m start is the middle one.

Chivito550

Also, don't get confused by the lines signalling the start and end of changeovers for 4x400m relay. These tend to be in a different colour. The 800m start is white but usually has a bit of green going through it. The 400m start line is always white from my recollection.

EDIT: Good pic here where you can see all the lines.

Dubgal72

Thanks chivito. Pretty sure that's where we started today. It was a white solid/unbroken line anyway and seemed close enough to the general start line.

spaceylou

Have a new session in my training plan this coming week which calls for short hills. My understanding is that these should be short enough (50 - 60m) and steep and that the focus is on form. Am not sure how steep is steep enough.

For anyone who knows Bushy Park in Dublin, I was thinking of the hill from the band stand near the duck pond up to the higher part of the park - would that be suitable?

Thanks

Myles Splitz

spaceylou wrote: »

Have a new session in my training plan this coming week which calls for short hills. My understanding is that these should be short enough (50 - 60m) and steep and that the focus is on form. Am not sure how steep is steep enough.

For anyone who knows Bushy Park in Dublin, I was thinking of the hill from the band stand near the duck pond up to the higher part of the park - would that be suitable?

Thanks

What plan are you following?

Depending on the plan short hills could mean 6-10 seconds on very steep gradient (Canova/Magness)

However others would see short hills as you describe and in that case that hill is perfect.

spaceylou

Myles Splitz wrote: »

What plan are you following?

Depending on the plan short hills could mean 6-10 seconds on very steep gradient (Canova/Magness)

However others would see short hills as you describe and in that case that hill is perfect.

Plan is loosely following something from runners world and my focus is on 5k distance. Next race that I am targeting is Tallaght AC 5k. Description is

"Short hill repeats are 40-to 60-meter sprints up reasonably steep hills. Our effort level should be slightly less than an "all-out" sprint -- but just slightly. Also, remember that this workout is designed to challenge our legs, not our lungs. Our legs should feel momentary fatigue as we recruit their full range of muscle fiber, but we should recover quickly. Don't make the mistake of turning this stride-efficiency workout into a fitness session. After each repetition, we walk back down the hill, wait until a full two to three minutes have passed, and then sprint up the hill again"

But just feel like 'reasonably steep' is a bit of an immeasurable concept because it all depends what you are used to. Do you think the hill in Bushy would be good for this?

Myles Splitz

spaceylou wrote: »

Plan is loosely following something from runners world and my focus is on 5k distance. Next race that I am targeting is Tallaght AC 5k. Description is

"Short hill repeats are 40-to 60-meter sprints up reasonably steep hills. Our effort level should be slightly less than an "all-out" sprint -- but just slightly. Also, remember that this workout is designed to challenge our legs, not our lungs. Our legs should feel momentary fatigue as we recruit their full range of muscle fiber, but we should recover quickly. Don't make the mistake of turning this stride-efficiency workout into a fitness session. After each repetition, we walk back down the hill, wait until a full two to three minutes have passed, and then sprint up the hill again"

But just feel like 'reasonably steep' is a bit of an immeasurable concept because it all depends what you are used to. Do you think the hill in Bushy would be good for this?

That would be fine either that or the hill on Braemor Road would be quite similar in terms of gradient (2-4% climb). Use the Braemor Road one myself at times if you are looking for slightly longer hills.

Those hill reps are a very solid session for 5k training and will stand to you for sure

MarkY91

I'm doing the terenure 5 mile in about 7 weeks and I'm looking for a good training program to get the best time I possibly can.

Past year I got a time of 39:20..ish and woukdnt like to surpass it thus year although I haven't been running as seriously lately.

Can anyone recommend a program to help? I'm not afraid of tough ones as I did the Frank Duffy 10 miler too so I feel like I can take on a tough challenge. I will be disappointed in myself if I fail to build on last year's time.


My plan so far is to do some 6 mile runs...

spaceylou

Myles Splitz wrote: »

That would be fine either that or the hill on Braemor Road would be quite similar in terms of gradient (2-4% climb). Use the Braemor Road one myself at times if you are looking for slightly longer hills.

Those hill reps are a very solid session for 5k training and will stand to you for sure

Great, thanks for that