Random Running Questions

TFBubendorfer

El Caballo wrote: »

Yep, you can train your body to access fat stores more easily by running on empty but it also has a recovery cost both mentally and physically, every action...

I have been running on empty almost every day for 10 years and I cannot ever remember it having a particularly detrimental effect on recovery, either mentally or physically.

Having said that, deciding to run on empty just because you don't want to wear a belt seems a bit silly to me. I train on empty but I still take a couple of gels during a marathon - I wear shorts with pockets that can easy take 2 or 3 gels.

runnerholic

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

I have been running on empty almost every day for 10 years and I cannot ever remember it having a particularly detrimental effect on recovery, either mentally or physically.

Having said that, deciding to run on empty just because you don't want to wear a belt seems a bit silly to me. I train on empty but I still take a couple of gels during a marathon - I wear shorts with pockets that can easy take 2 or 3 gels.

Not wanting to wear a belt is just one factor. I don't like gels and I don't think that all that sugar is particularly good for you. But I do take your point that the extra glycogen is beneficial to performance.

hillsiderunner

mel.b wrote: »

Creative things to do with all those race tops:

- make a quilt...https://runnersami.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/runningquilt.jpg
- wall of fame...http://thenotsoblankcanvas.blogspot.ie/2012/09/threadbare-memories.html
- turn it into a bag...http://www.fittinpretty.com/easy-diy-race-shirt-bag-tutorial-no-sew/

Or undo the seams at the neck and sides and re-stitch it so it doesn't choke you and has a decent shape.

(not sure I'll ever get to it but I have plans for the stack of non-luminous T-shirts on the bottom shelf of the wardrobe. I'm not going to mention how long I've had those plans ..)

TFBubendorfer

runnerholic wrote: »

Not wanting to wear a belt is just one factor. I don't like gels and I don't think that all that sugar is particularly good for you. But I do take your point that the extra glycogen is beneficial to performance.

Ok, just keep a few facts in mind:

- it takes a long time to become fully fat adapted. There are definite benefits to that beyond not having to carry a belt when running but it's very much a long term solution that requires a lot of patience and effort

- taking sugar while exercising is not bad for you. The glycogen gets burned immediately and won't cause an insulin response. Plus, sugar is a stress reliever, which does have its positives

Btw, I don't like gels either but two or three in a marathon can make a difference. When a race hands out sports drinks on the course I always take a bottle because I find a sports drink much more agreeable than a gel.

Enduro

El Caballo wrote: »

Yep, you can train your body to access fat stores more easily by running on empty but it also has a recovery cost both mentally and physically, every action...

The numero uno way by a country mile to train your body to be more efficient at using fat as fuel is running more miles. Running on empty is a marginal gains affair when you compare it to actually running more. It really is that simple, if running on empty hampers recovery time, it impacts the amount of solid running you can do and your ability to run even more mileage which would be more productive. If you are running low/medium mileage increasing mileage will give you way more bang for your buck because time spent running has a mahoosive impact on how your body processes fuel, the overwhelming factor on fuel efficiency for running. So if running on empty affects your recovery thus affecting the amount of solid mileage you can get in, then it also affects the major contributor to fuel efficiency which is time on your feet or mileage, there's a problem of chaining one slice of cake when you could have the rest.

Not by any means saying you wouldn't see any benefit from running on empty, you probably would as us mere mortals who haven't come close to our potential will see benefit from nearly any kind of new stimulus but it's my firm belief that many recreational runners miss the woods for the trees when it comes to seeking improvement by looking for marginal gains through things like running on empty when the major gains are there to be made through honest hard graft of mileage, that's where the golden ticket is for us to make leaps forward, will improve your fuel efficiency to no end compared to empty runs. My 2c on the subject. If you do go with running on empty for training, don't do it on raceway as gels or energy drinks will give you that extra boost and preserve your carbohydrates as no matter how fat adapted you are, you still need carbohydrates to run to your best in a marathon.

Hate typing without keyboard, but anyway...

Agree 100% that putting in the training miles is the most important thing. No shortcuts around hard work. everything else is fine tuning.

However there are benefits to be had for most marathon runners to adapting long term training and racing on empty. Been there, done that , and have actual race experience and results to make that judment. Some are very obvious, some are more marginal. Will make a more detailed reply when I get to a keyboard.

John Tracy seemed to do alright without sports gunk!

positron

HS3 wrote: »

I wear them all the time! I find them great. They dry in no time when you wash them and the feel light as air to run in...

I agree - the one I got from Duleek 10K - it's light as feather and perfect for quick drying and keeping you cool. This particular t isn't poorly designed either.. but some others looks positively ghastly. Fit-wise the race organizer recommended I go for two sizes over my normal size and that matched me perfectly. Strange Asian sizing or something going on there I suppose.

mel.b wrote: »

However, as for the advertising of the race on the t-shirt, it doesn't bother me and as a relatively new runner it alerts me to runs to look out for the following year. For example, I did a park run the week after the Limerick marathon and loads of people were wearing the shirt. At the time I didn't even know there was a Limerick marathon (and half & 10K), so it meant that I was aware of it the following year (although turned I was out of the country when it was on so I couldn't do it)

That is actually a fair point I hadn't thought of. Still no excuse to make them disgusting. I saw some of the race t-shirts online (some dude in the USA, can't find that video now) and they look more pleasing to the eye, hence the original thought.

hot buttered scones

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

Ok, just keep a few facts in mind:

- it takes a long time to become fully fat adapted. There are definite benefits to that beyond not having to carry a belt when running but it's very much a long term solution that requires a lot of patience and effort

- taking sugar while exercising is not bad for you. The glycogen gets burned immediately and won't cause an insulin response. Plus, sugar is a stress reliever, which does have its positives

Btw, I don't like gels either but two or three in a marathon can make a difference. When a race hands out sports drinks on the course I always take a bottle because I find a sports drink much more agreeable than a gel.

Enduro wrote: »

Hate typing without keyboard, but anyway...

Agree 100% that putting in the training miles is the most important thing. No shortcuts around hard work. everything else is fine tuning.

However there are benefits to be had for most marathon runners to adapting long term training and racing on empty. Been there, done that , and have actual race experience and results to make that judment. Some are very obvious, some are more marginal. Will make a more detailed reply when I get to a keyboard.

John Tracy seemed to do alright without sports gunk!

I've been trying to running longer with no gels in training (always with a breakfast though for a long run) - max 15 miles at this stage I'd say (2.25 hours roughly). I had one bad experience lately where 12 miles into an 18 miler I could feel myself fading badly. I had a gel in the pocket of my shorts that day so I took it to complete the run. In all honesty I could have avoided that if I had eaten more/better the day before. Mostly though, I just have a cup of coffee (with 2 sugars!) and head out for a run if its in the morning and not a long run. The bad run the other week knocked my confidence a bit though, so I'm taking 2 or 3 gels if the run is going to be around 3 hours long. I also plan to take a couple for any long runs with marathon pace miles as race practice. As for carrying gels during the marathon - I have a pair of Ronhill cargo shots with four net pockets and I use High 5 gels which are given out on the course anyway, so I'll carry 4 with me and grab some more on route if I need them.

In short - have a big dinner before a long run and get shorts with pockets.

hot buttered scones

positron wrote: »

Anyone ever wear those technical t-shirts that you get some of the races, after the race?

Sorry, I just want to rant (apologies)... why do various event organizers design their technical t-shirts so poorly with huge banners about event date etc?! I mean, a runner has already signed up to the event and what is the point advertising that event on that t-shirt which won't see the light of day until the race day? If the idea is to get their sponsors logo to be out there and seen, should they not design the t-shirt in such a way that people would actually want to wear it during their normal runs along the streets or parks after the race as well?

I wear them all the time - I think most of my t shirts are race t shirts at this stage. So are good (Dungravan 10 Nike dri-fit) and some are rubbish, but the rubbish ones will do for recovery runs and the like. I entered two races alt year because of the t-shirt - the Novartis BHAA 5k in Cork because the race was only a €5 and there was a free generic tech tee, and the Cork City 10 miler because I liked the t-shirt design. Although my young lad was laughing at my Charleville t shirt because of the huge Cheese strings logo on the back.

adrian522

When people talk about running on empty, does that mean no food at all that morning or just not taking on carbs during the run. I do the latter all the time but I find I struggle if I go longer than 90 mins without a decent breakfast first.

Been using gels the last few runs to get some practice in with them.

Do people find sports drink just as good as gels if it is available on course?

runnerholic

adrian522 wrote: »

When people talk about running on empty, does that mean no food at all that morning or just not taking on carbs during the run. I do the latter all the time but I find I struggle if I go longer than 90 mins without a decent breakfast first.

Been using gels the last few runs to get some practice in with them.

Do people find sports drink just as good as gels if it is available on course?

For me it is not taking on any extra fuel during my run. I would still have a breakfast. Probably not a strict definition of "running on empty" as some would run 1st thing in the morning with no fuel on board.

TFBubendorfer

adrian522 wrote: »

When people talk about running on empty, does that mean no food at all that morning or just not taking on carbs during the run. I do the latter all the time but I find I struggle if I go longer than 90 mins without a decent breakfast first.

Been using gels the last few runs to get some practice in with them.

Do people find sports drink just as good as gels if it is available on course?

To me, running on empty means no breakfast and no carbs during the run. I have water before the run, and if I feel like it at the weekend a cup of coffee as well, but that's it.

When I started running I used to eat some cereal before running but eventually decided to try without. I actually find that easier because I don't like running with food sitting in my stomach, and I've never run out of energy during a run and that includes runs of well over 20 miles at times.

As for the last point, I much prefer sports drink if it's available on course.

Sunny Dayz

positron wrote: »

Anyone ever wear those technical t-shirts that you get some of the races, after the race?

Sorry, I just want to rant (apologies)... why do various event organizers design their technical t-shirts so poorly with huge banners about event date etc?! I mean, a runner has already signed up to the event and what is the point advertising that event on that t-shirt which won't see the light of day until the race day? If the idea is to get their sponsors logo to be out there and seen, should they not design the t-shirt in such a way that people would actually want to wear it during their normal runs along the streets or parks after the race as well?

Maybe organisers think that maybe some people won't bother doing the run if they've gotten the tshirt well in advance. I often wear my tshirts on runs and training and get good wear out of them. It annoys me though some events won't give you the tshirt until after the event, what's the point in that, I want to wear it in the race!!

hot buttered scones

Sunny Dayz wrote:

Maybe organisers think that maybe some people won't bother doing the run if they've gotten the tshirt well in advance. I often wear my tshirts on runs and training and get good wear out of them. It annoys me though some events won't give you the tshirt until after the event, what's the point in that, I want to wear it in the race!!

I'm a bit superstitious about wearing the t shirt before finishing the race. I'd feel like I was pushing my luck to wear a finishers shirt before finishing. Also how can I pick myself out in race photos if everyone's wearing the same t shirt? :-)

CZ 453

Could someone recommend a decent pair of running earphones for the winter? The last set I had got damaged via rain in the remote. Thanks

adrian522

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

To me, running on empty means no breakfast and no carbs during the run. I have water before the run, and if I feel like it at the weekend a cup of coffee as well, but that's it.

When I started running I used to eat some cereal before running but eventually decided to try without. I actually find that easier because I don't like running with food sitting in my stomach, and I've never run out of energy during a run and that includes runs of well over 20 miles at times.

As for the last point, I much prefer sports drink if it's available on course.

So no water during the run either? I'd normally eat a good hour to 90 mins before a long run, and I'd stop for water for anything above 16 miles, but that is just what I've found works for me.

Berlin has sports drink available but unfortunately it seems to be some brand I haven't heard of so it looks like I'll stick to water and take my gels.

RayCun

Running on empty, to me, means no food before the run. Maybe a drink.
The idea of getting up to eat breakfast and then hanging around for an hour before running never appealed.

adrian522

RayCun wrote: »

Running on empty, to me, means no food before the run. Maybe a drink.
The idea of getting up to eat breakfast and then hanging around for an hour before running never appealed.

So you'd go for a 3 hour run without eating?

It's not just about "hanging around" either. So.even of us have things to do that aren't running or eating.

hot buttered scones

RayCun wrote: »

Running on empty, to me, means no food before the run. Maybe a drink.
The idea of getting up to eat breakfast and then hanging around for an hour before running never appealed.

I'd be interested to know how to train yourself to get to a stage where you could go for a 20 mile run without eating first. Is it just a case of running on empty for successively longer distances? Would you make sure to have a decent meal the night before? I'm genuinely interested in how long it took people to get to that stage.

sideswipe

RayCun wrote: »

Running on empty, to me, means no food before the run. Maybe a drink.
The idea of getting up to eat breakfast and then hanging around for an hour before running never appealed.

+1
Out the bed and out the door for me too. Just because you've had no breakfast doesn't mean you truly empty though- unless you've done a hard session and not refuelled the night before.
Not eating before is more about convenience for me but I'm at the point now where 20 miles without breakfast, gels or drinks isn't a big deal.
The benefit I feel is when you do fully fuel for a race or race paced session. I feel like I get the full value from the gels or drinks. When I used to train with them I felt their effect was reduced.

adrian522

sideswipe wrote: »

+1
Out the bed and out the door for me too. Just because you've had no breakfast doesn't mean you truly empty though- unless you've done a hard session and not refuelled the night before.
Not eating before is more about convenience for me but I'm at the point now where 20 miles without breakfast, gels or drinks isn't a big deal.
The benefit I feel is when you do fully fuel for a race or race paced session. I feel like I get the full value from the gels or drinks. When I used to train with them I felt their effect was reduced.

The research I've read suggests that occasional long runs on empty can be beneficial but that there is no need to do it for every run and that it may actually have a negative effect doing all your long runs on empty.

A recent study conducted in New Zealand showed that cyclists who completed exercise early in the morning without eating breakfast (fasted state) improved muscle glycogen stores by as much as 50% over the group that ate breakfast before their exercise. Similar studies have made it clear that occasional fasting before exercise can improve glycogen storage and endurance performance.

However...

, other studies have gone further and tested the effects of training with low glycogen levels for more than one run or for extended periods of time. The research concludes that extended carbohydrate depletion impairs performance and does not enhance fat utilization.

So if you are doing it for reasons of convenience that is one thing but I think there are plenty of benefits to eating before you're long runs (particularly when you get into long runs of 2.5 hours or more).

https://runnersconnect.net/coach-corner/marathon-long-runs-on-an-empty-stomach-or-fully-fueled/

Itziger

My problem with running on empty is I need something to trigger 'the bathroom visit' before I go out. Obviously, we're not talking peeing here!!!
This morning for example I had a few nutritious biscuits and a small cup of coffee. Not a big breakfast but did the aforementioned job. Then soon after I went for a 30k run. Wasn't waiting around for 60 minutes which can indeed be a pain when you want to get the run over and do family stuff afterwards. As it's very warm here at the moment I had a couple of bottles on the belt and a couple of dried figs for a boost.

RayCun

adrian522 wrote: »

So you'd go for a 3 hour run without eating?

It's not just about "hanging around" either. So.even of us have things to do that aren't running or eating.

I think the longest I've done like that is 2.5 hours, and more usually closer to 1.5, but yeah, no food beforehand

UM1

Itziger wrote: »

My problem with running on empty is I need something to trigger 'the bathroom visit' before I go out. Obviously, we're not talking peeing here.

Two weetabix before u go to bed usually does the trick for me.

sideswipe

adrian522 wrote: »

So if you are doing it for reasons of convenience that is one thing but I think there are plenty of benefits to eating before you're long runs (particularly when you get into long runs of 2.5 hours or more).

https://runnersconnect.net/coach-corner/marathon-long-runs-on-an-empty-stomach-or-fully-fueled/

Interesting article. Plenty of food for thought there.....if you pardon the pun!!

HelenAnne

I don't eat a) before or b) on long runs (a) for convenience, as long runs start at 8am and I am too lazy to get up before 7.30am on a Sunday, and b) from fear: have never taken a gel and am afraid to try one on a long run in case it makes me sick), but this year I haven't really been doing long runs (did 13.5 yesterday, but before that I'd just done a few 12s and loads of 10s). My body has obviously got out of practice with running on empty because during my 12.5 last week and 13.5 yesterday I was STARVING about 10 miles in. I wasn't dizzy or anything and could run fine, but my stomach was really rumbling and I had a hunger pain by the end.
What would be a good thing to eat before bed the night before to keep me a bit fuller till after my run? A yoghurt or something, maybe?
Any tips gratefully received.

jamule

I'd never eat before a morning run, more for convenience than anything else. Will make an effort to get up and eat something if it was an early race.
Gels are overpriced sugary junk food, i like sugary junk food so I stick with something I like rather than gel gunk but only if I am going >2hrs. I might also bring some food in my pocket, again something sugary but generally something I like and made myself (some sort of buiscuit/flap jack, cake)

Northern Monkey

CZ 453 wrote: »

Could someone recommend a decent pair of running earphones for the winter? The last set I had got damaged via rain in the remote. Thanks

I have these and find them spot on. Not sure what the waterproofness is like though.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Mpow-Bluetooth-Headphones-Earphones-Hands-free/dp/B017ATPNAU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1472469206&sr=8-1&keywords=mpow+magneto

davedanon

UM1 wrote: »

Two weetabix before u go to bed usually does the trick for me.

Eaten, or inserted?

vanderlyle

HelenAnne wrote: »

I don't eat a) before or b) on long runs (a) for convenience, as long runs start at 8am and I am too lazy to get up before 7.30am on a Sunday, and b) from fear: have never taken a gel and am afraid to try one on a long run in case it makes me sick)

I hear you HelenAnne! I'm the same on all points you mention.

I'm far from an expert on this stuff and I don't have much experience, but it got me around last year's DCM.

I never eat the morning of a run. Whether it's a long run, short run, race, any distance, I don't eat. I didn't eat on the morning of the marathon either. I look back at my log and see the Moone kilomarathon, the Athlone 3/4, and I didn't eat before them. I tend to get stitches very easily, so running on empty is all I've ever known. I am also not blessed with an iron stomach. Like anything, you just get used to it, and you don't feel hungry. I see people wolfing down gels at the start line and had a friend who advised me to take one every 20 minutes... that may be fine for some, but would not work for me.

I did eat a big meal the night before the long runs. My go-to was risotto, which is packed with carbs. I also took the water & lucozade sport that were offered at DCM last year. But the advice "do in the race what you do in training" is important. If you haven't practised your long runs using a particular brand of gel/sports drink, then don't introduce it on race day.

aoboa

Sorry - I know this comes up all the time but I can't find a concise answer.

Aiming for a 3:50 marathon.
JD says easy pace is 09:38 - 10:11.
Question: should easy and LSRs be at the same pace?