Random Running Questions

ger664

aoboa wrote: »

Sorry - I know this comes up all the time but I can't find a concise answer.

Aiming for a 3:50 marathon.
JD says easy pace is 09:38 - 10:11.
Question: should easy and LSRs be at the same pace?

Runner Dependent. First couple of marathons both should be pretty much the same. A couple under your belt and some of the LSR should be faster with MP miles thrown in.

hot buttered scones

I'm following the P+D up to 55 mile plan form DCM 2016 and I have couple of questions for anyone who has followed this or any of the P+D plans before.

1. I probably should have asked this before starting the plan, but here goes anyway. With regards to strides, how do people interpret the instructions in the book? The book says to do them at "top speed" - so I accelerate to go as fast as I can, while trying to maintain good form. I do hold a little bit back because I'm conscious that I have a few reps to do. Sometimes I try and hold this speed for the full 100, and sometimes I slow done a bit over the last 25-30m, but I just try tasty relaxed I says to recover for 100-200m, so I usually just jog back to where I started. Early on I figured this takes about a minute, so now I just leave a minute or so of very easy running between strides. If the plan says something like 8 miles General Aerobic + 8x 100m strides, then I'll run 5.5 to 6 miles, do the strides and finish with 1 - 1.5 miles GA. I'm not doing these on a track or anything, just a flat piece if road or something - I just have the Garmin beep when 100m are done (I'm not to concerned about the accuracy of the distance as long as its in the right ballpark). So am I doing these the right way?

2. So I'm on week 10 of the plan (8 weeks to goal) and I had my first V02 max session this week - 5x800m at 5k pace. I took the 5k pace from a race I ran back in June. I was a full 10secs/mile slower for each rep (bar the 2nd one for some reason) and even at that I wanted to quit after the first rep. OK, there were some other factors at play here (heat, tiredness) but not enough to account for how miserable these felt. This was the first interval type workout I've done since around late May/early June, and the first run at this pace since mid June. Would the perceived/actual lack of speed/sharpness be down to not having done this type of workout in a while? Or the increased mileage and more marathon specific training? Or both? I have a few more of these V02@ max type sessions to go, and I'm thinking of running them closer to 10k pace, or at least between 10k and 5k pace - but I suppose if I replace the word pace here with effort then I won't be going to far wrong, will I? I raced a lot more during my last marathon training block, and while I felt sharper while racing and doing sessions, I was a lot more fatigued and in the end I didn't have the endurance to complete the marathon at my goal pace. Endurance wise I feel stronger now - so maybe thats what I should focus on, rather than worry about my speed over shorter distances?

3. The plan has 3 tune up races - 8-15k on 17/9, 8-15k on 1/10 and 8-10k on 15/10, each followed by a long run. I have read on here that people have found these really beneficial. However, I mad up my mind a long time ago to run the Charleville half on the 18/9, so my plan for that week is to just do an easy run with HMP pace strides the day before and to race the half - the book does allow this I think if you don't do the long run the day after. For the other 2 races - I'm working on both those days/nights with very little chance of time off. I'm thinking of just doing a 10k time trial on 1/10 and a 5 mile TT on 15/10. It won't be easy to hit race pace outside a race, and I have no chance of company either to push me on - so my thoughts are just a good honest effort, probably just a bit faster than I'm doing the LT pace runs. There is a slim chance that for one of the October days I might get to a park run - so while this is less than the distance to be raced in the plan, I'm thinking maybe run the park run as a 5k race (or fast timed run, whatever you want to call it), then do a mile or so recovery and a couple of miles tempo afterwards?

So that's it really, and thanks in advance for reading and any feedback. Its a bit long winded, and probably belongs in my log, but this thread gets more traffic, so I'm posting it here so I have a better chance of getting feedback.

ger664

1. I do them like you during the run with a few leg swings to get my old muscles used to going fast. Pickup the pace to flat out and hold it for the last 25m.

2. 5K pace is what your current pace is, so tiredness fatigue from training will come into play but yes these should be tough so I would not drop them to 10K

3. Skip the long run after Charlevillie, its too much especially if you race it. 10K 10 mile is more ideal distance to do the long run afterwards. It is beneficial in that I find it replicates how tired/sore your legs will be in the later stages of a marathon.

The Black Oil

How did professional runners pace themselves before GPS watches, etc, came along?

BeepBeep67

The Black Oil wrote: »

How did professional runners pace themselves before GPS watches, etc, came along?

The Guvnor
Stopwatch
Coach on bike
They just raced

Itziger

The Black Oil wrote: »

How did professional runners pace themselves before GPS watches, etc, came along?

Any 'pro' worth his or her salt could tell you what pace they're doing down to a second or so per km I'd say.

Even most of us on here who've been running for a few years. The other day I was doing an Easy run and the number of kms that were coming in between 4.50 and 4.55 was incredible. Here's the run.
https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/1332360255

HigginsJ

Got a foam roller & was prescribed a rolling routine recently. All fine apart from rolling the IT band. It is rather painful rolling it out. Is this normal or something that'll improve as I roll it more? Also rolling achilles, quads, calves, lower back, glutes & inner tigh which are all fine.

Battery Kinzie

I'm no expert, but I'm not sure rolling the IT band makes any difference, and I've seen it being discouraged in a few places.

tony1980

HigginsJ wrote: »

Got a foam roller & was prescribed a rolling routine recently. All fine apart from rolling the IT band. It is rather painful rolling it out. Is this normal or something that'll improve as I roll it more? Also rolling achilles, quads, calves, lower back, glutes & inner tigh which are all fine.

I find this guy good myself https://youtu.be/dqR1onH8mAg

tony1980

Would anyone know a good physio in or near Portlaoise?

Thepoet85

HigginsJ wrote:

Got a foam roller & was prescribed a rolling routine recently. All fine apart from rolling the IT band. It is rather painful rolling it out. Is this normal or something that'll improve as I roll it more? Also rolling achilles, quads, calves, lower back, glutes & inner tigh which are all fine.

Just use a suitable amount of pressure with the IT band.

The structure of the band means that it is tight/tense anyway, so it doesn't take a lot of pressure to aggrevate it.

I'd advise the same when foam rolling other tendinous/ ligamentous tissue as it isn't as pliable as muscle tissue.

davedanon

Thepoet85 wrote: »

Just use a suitable amount of pressure with the IT band.

The structure of the band means that it is tight/tense anyway, so it doesn't take a lot of pressure to aggrevate it.

I'd advise the same when foam rolling other tendinous/ ligamentous tissue as it isn't as pliable as muscle tissue.

Agh. You don't roll the ITB! You can stretch it, but not roll it. Its not muscle. Myles splitz will confirm, as he is extremely-well qualified in this area. It was him who told me, actually.

Thepoet85

davedanon wrote:

Agh. You don't roll the ITB! You can stretch it, but not roll it. Its not muscle. Myles splitz will confirm, as he is extremely-well qualified in this area. It was him who told me, actually.

I've been running my own physical therapy clinic for five years now, so not untrained on the subject.

Very very light pressure is fine for me on the itb, but people tend to over apply pressure, so I rarely demonstrate it to a client.

Personally, I feel the best way to alleviate pressure on the itb is to stretch/foam roll the hams and quads, thereby indirectly releasing the pressure on the itb.

The Muppet

Has anyone here experience of running on the greenway from Westport towards Achill. I think I'll be in that neck of the woods on a weekend of a 20mile lsr and the greenway came up in my search for a route. They mention walking and cycling on their web site, Just wondering whats its like underfoot for running, I wouldn't want anything too risky at that stage.

Sandwell

The Muppet wrote: »

Has anyone here experience of running on the greenway from Westport towards Achill. I think I'll be in that neck of the woods on a weekend of a 20mile lsr and the greenway came up in my search for a route. They mention walking and cycling on their web site, Just wondering whats its like underfoot for running, I wouldn't want anything too risky at that stage.

From recollection it's mainly smooth hard-packed gravel. No risk whatsoever.

snailsong

The Muppet wrote: »

Has anyone here experience of running on the greenway from Westport towards Achill. I think I'll be in that neck of the woods on a weekend of a 20mile lsr and the greenway came up in my search for a route. They mention walking and cycling on their web site, Just wondering whats its like underfoot for running, I wouldn't want anything too risky at that stage.

I run on this regularly. The surface is lovely to run on. Westport to Mulranny is about 19 miles, for 20 we do a lap to the beach and back. What weekend are you down? Might go with you if it suits. A few of us were planning the Westport Mulranny run on Sunday week, the 18th.

The Muppet

snailsong wrote: »

I run on this regularly. The surface is lovely to run on. Westport to Mulranny is about 19 miles, for 20 we do a lap to the beach and back. What weekend are you down? Might go with you if it suits. A few of us were planning the Westport Mulranny run on Sunday week, the 18th.

Cheers, It will be the weekend of the 30th September and First of October, its not finalised yet but thats what its looking like at the moment. I'll be fitting my run in around herselfs Plans so I'm not sure what time i will be running but most likely the afternoon of the Friday or Saturday.
Not Ideal I know but If you're around and dont mine running 11 minute miles or slower:) a bit of company would be great.

Krusty_Clown

The Muppet wrote: »

Has anyone here experience of running on the greenway from Westport towards Achill. I think I'll be in that neck of the woods on a weekend of a 20mile lsr and the greenway came up in my search for a route. They mention walking and cycling on their web site, Just wondering whats its like underfoot for running, I wouldn't want anything too risky at that stage.

Ran it last year in the Westport to Achill direction. Nearly all gravel and tarmac, with the occasional cattle grid just to really annoy you. Nice route. Check the wind direction before you leave!

snailsong

The Muppet wrote: »

snailsong wrote: »

I run on this regularly. The surface is lovely to run on. Westport to Mulranny is about 19 miles, for 20 we do a lap to the beach and back. What weekend are you down? Might go with you if it suits. A few of us were planning the Westport Mulranny run on Sunday week, the 18th.

Cheers, It will be the weekend of the 30th September and First of October, its not finalised yet but thats what its looking like at the moment. I'll be fitting my run in around herselfs Plans so I'm not sure what time i will be running but most likely the afternoon of the Friday or Saturday.
Not Ideal I know but If you're around and dont mine running 11 minute miles or slower:) a bit of company would be great.

If it was a week earlier you could run the Clew Bay half with many famous Boardsies :d.
We have a parkrun Saturday that I usually attend but on the first there's a duathlon I'm thinking of doing. Do you have a bike?
Give us a shout when you're down anyhow and if I'm out I'll do a few miles with you. Not so keen on 20 x 11 minutes though, certainly getting time on the feet.:D

The Muppet

Ha ha that's one way of looking at it , cheers

donnacha

Curious to know if any folks here have followed Jack Daniels 3rd edition 4-Week Cycle marathon plan? Its a 26 week plan with two quality workouts per week for three weeks, but only easy running on the fourth week. I've been following the up to 40 miles/week plan though in truth averaging 5 miles extra per week since I started.

My A goal is a sub 3:30 DCM and as I enter into the final 8 wks have started to doubt the lack of the LSR. Lurking in the logs and the novices thread doesn't help when I read about all the Long runs people are notching up. In fairness there are lots of longish MP sessions in the plan. E. G. Sunday I did 30 min easy followed by 12@MP then this Weds I have a 17 miler (3E + 6MP +1E + 4MP + 3 E).

I have signed up for the 3/4 marathon which is going off plan a bit but feel I need at least one run close to the 20 mark for some confidence building.

Thoughts/advice all welcome. Anyone have a log that is following this Jack Daniels plan?

Firedance

snailsong wrote: »

If it was a week earlier you could run the Clew Bay half with many famous Boardsies :d.
We have a parkrun Saturday that I usually attend but on the first there's a duathlon I'm thinking of doing. Do you have a bike?
Give us a shout when you're down anyhow and if I'm out I'll do a few miles with you. Not so keen on 20 x 11 minutes though, certainly getting time on the feet.:D

Capital D snailsong, capital D, have I taught you nothing!!

Yeah pity its not the 24/25th T, you could include the half as part of your Long run under strict supervision I'm hoping to get a few miles in around there too either on the bike or on foot, weather dependent!

snailsong

Firedance wrote: »

snailsong wrote: »

Capital D snailsong, capital D, have I taught you nothing!!

Trying to be clever and take shortcuts. It won't happen again boss:D. ;p

The Muppet

Firedance wrote: »

Capital D snailsong, capital D, have I taught you nothing!!

Yeah pity its not the 24/25th T, you could include the half as part of your Long run under strict supervision I'm hoping to get a few miles in around there too either on the bike or on foot, weather dependent!

Not sure the supervision would be necessary A.M. . I was being optimistic with my 11 minute miles .

Itziger

donnacha wrote: »

Curious to know if any folks here have followed Jack Daniels 3rd edition 4-Week Cycle marathon plan? Its a 26 week plan with two quality workouts per week for three weeks, but only easy running on the fourth week. I've been following the up to 40 miles/week plan though in truth averaging 5 miles extra per week since I started.

My A goal is a sub 3:30 DCM and as I enter into the final 8 wks have started to doubt the lack of the LSR. Lurking in the logs and the novices thread doesn't help when I read about all the Long runs people are notching up. In fairness there are lots of longish MP sessions in the plan. E. G. Sunday I did 30 min easy followed by 12@MP then this Weds I have a 17 miler (3E + 6MP +1E + 4MP + 3 E).

I have signed up for the 3/4 marathon which is going off plan a bit but feel I need at least one run close to the 20 mark for some confidence building.

Thoughts/advice all welcome. Anyone have a log that is following this Jack Daniels plan?

The 12 I've highlighted above, that's miles right? That seems like a fair session. 30 mins easy and if you add a little c/d, that's a good run whatever way you look at it. 17 miles midweek is also fairly impressive, and 10 of those are MP. I did JD plan once, it wasn't this one, and I must admit I felt the lack of LRs wasn't good for me. There were only 2 20 milers in the whole thing. Sorry for not helping much here but as always it depends a lot on the individual.

donnacha

Itziger wrote: »

The 12 I've highlighted above, that's miles right? That seems like a fair session. 30 mins easy and if you add a little c/d, that's a good run whatever way you look at it. 17 miles midweek is also fairly impressive, and 10 of those are MP. I did JD plan once, it wasn't this one, and I must admit I felt the lack of LRs wasn't good for me. There were only 2 20 milers in the whole thing. Sorry for not helping much here but as always it depends a lot on the individual.

Thanks anyway. Yes its miles alright - I guess even though I'm nowhere near the taper I'm starting to question everything I've done to date. I still have 2 easy weeks left in plan - 1 is due the week of the Dublin Half so I might just do an easy 7 miles before it to turn that into a 20 mile. If I run that at an easy/slow pace plus do the same with the 3/4 marathon it'll hopefully address some of my questions.

BeepBeep67

donnacha wrote: »

Curious to know if any folks here have followed Jack Daniels 3rd edition 4-Week Cycle marathon plan? Its a 26 week plan with two quality workouts per week for three weeks, but only easy running on the fourth week. I've been following the up to 40 miles/week plan though in truth averaging 5 miles extra per week since I started.

My A goal is a sub 3:30 DCM and as I enter into the final 8 wks have started to doubt the lack of the LSR. Lurking in the logs and the novices thread doesn't help when I read about all the Long runs people are notching up. In fairness there are lots of longish MP sessions in the plan. E. G. Sunday I did 30 min easy followed by 12@MP then this Weds I have a 17 miler (3E + 6MP +1E + 4MP + 3 E).

I have signed up for the 3/4 marathon which is going off plan a bit but feel I need at least one run close to the 20 mark for some confidence building.

Thoughts/advice all welcome. Anyone have a log that is following this Jack Daniels plan?

Where do you feel you need to focus, is it MP specific work, threshold or endurance.
I've done an amended version of P&D before, but coming from a shorter race background, so running at MP felt easy, running at MP for almost 3hrs was the challenge.
I made sure I had extra LSR's (with 1 close to target race time) and most weekends were 32M+.

hot buttered scones

I'm currently training for Dublin, but I've felt a bit off for the last week or so - struggling to hit paces during workouts, and had to abandon an Lt pace run today. I'm not sick, and I don't think I'm overtrained. I was having similar trouble around June this year. In June and now my weight has come right down to the lowest its ever been. I put a few kgs back on in July will on holidays (lower mileage, lots of eating and drinking), and felt a bit stronger in general.
So my question is can you be too light? Is it this weight loss that's causing the issues I'm having? My other thought is that its not the weight that's the issue at all - that's its a symptom of another problem which is basically not refuelling properly after training. I eat a fairly normal amount of decent food, but maybe its not enough given the training I'm doing at present. I'm currently doing the P+D up to 55m btw.

Am I barking up the wrong tree here? Talking out me hoop?

donnacha

BeepBeep67 wrote: »

Where do you feel you need to focus, is it MP specific work, threshold or endurance.
I've done an amended version of P&D before, but coming from a shorter race background, so running at MP felt easy, running at MP for almost 3hrs was the challenge.
I made sure I had extra LSR's (with 1 close to target race time) and most weekends were 32M+.

Its the endurance that has me concerned. Looking back on what I've done over the plan there has been a lot of MP sessions, plenty of 1 - 1.5hr Q sessions w threshold/interval and repetition (n x 200metres) and I've handled all these hurdles. Longest block of MP miles to date was 15 miles which I was pretty wrecked at the end for though it came after a peak easy mileage week of 51.

The plan unfortunately doesn't have any scheduled runs longer than 2.5 hrs but every 3 out of 4 weeks have 2 quality sessions.

Chartsengrafs

Random running question:

A young lad from work texted me earlier. He's doing Hell and Back next week and went for a 5k run this evening (his second run in about 18 months. He's not a runner - doesn't play any sport that I'm aware of). He wanted to know if 3.41 pace was good or not. I demanded evidence in the form of a screenshot from whatever app he was using - and it turns out he did indeed cover 5.15 km at 3.41min/km pace. He did admit to pushing himself hard however.

My random running question is should I:

1. Encourage him to take up running, join a club and all that? There are a lot of good runners in work so he would undoubtedly get plenty of advice and encouragement should he decide to invest some time in training.

2. Push him down the stairs in work in a jealous rage? (It took me a long time to get to that level)

I'm leaning towards the latter.