Random Running Questions

conavitzky

HelenAnne wrote: »

Random question - why might I be doing so poorly at xc this year? I'm improving on the roads, but going backwards at xc. I have a horrible feeling it's some kind of mental problem and I just need to htfu, but it's also possible that I'm improving at the shorter distances on the roads as I'm found less mileage and am less tired, but need more endurance for xc. I also have suspicions that I need to warm up better for xc and am wondering if the groin pull I had in autumn has left me with less power or stability in xc?any tips? Suggestions?

It depends on what type of training you have been doing. Getting faster on the road doesnt always lend itself to getting faster on xc courses. But I have found that getting faster at xc will automatically make you faster on the road.
XC training should be XC specific. Be sure to get out on the grass (preferably hilly) at least once a week including some tempo - race pace work during this session. Also, be sure to fit in plenty of hill repeats to your training to build strength. Concentrate on technique (drive the knee) rather than speed.
Thats what has worked for me anyway. Get through 2-3 months of that type of training and you will be in good shape for XC.

HelenAnne

conavitzky wrote: »

It depends on what type of training you have been doing. Getting faster on the road doesnt always lend itself to getting faster on xc courses. But I have found that getting faster at xc will automatically make you faster on the road.
XC training should be XC specific. Be sure to get out on the grass (preferably hilly) at least once a week including some tempo - race pace work during this session. Also, be sure to fit in plenty of hill repeats to your training to build strength. Concentrate on technique (drive the knee) rather than speed.
Thats what has worked for me anyway. Get through 2-3 months of that type of training and you will be in good shape for XC.

Thanks very much! I think hills and longer distances and hill repeats are definitely what are missing. I used to do a run up to Howth summit every week and hadn't realised that with one thing and another I'd been missing it / substituting that run with a flat run-commute of the same length etc for the last month or two (or three!), so i'm back to it now as of last week. I've never done a hill rep in my life, but Dick Hooper was recommending them for XC too, so I must try them.
I do do a bit on the grass, but in the winter it's annoying because I can only run around the park at weekends or if I'm off work (and rumours of a 'teenage fight club' in our park has put me off running there in the dark even more! :eek:) If I see grass I run on it though, and our sessions are on grass.
I'm determined to be a bit stronger for the Dublin Masters next month - I'm fed up of being disappointed in myself after XC this year.
Seeing Ciara Mageean roll over the line yesterday also makes me think that a bit of htfu and running through pain wouldn't go amiss either!
The only things I did right yesterday in Dundalk were pushing myself to sprint a bit at the start so I didn't start off in last place and pushing up the little hills / dykes - i even passed people on them. It was just all the rest of the running I was bad at!

Thanks, everyone. Onwards & upwards!

Itziger

El Caballo wrote: »

I'd be careful of using that plan, had never heard of it before until lately as it seems to be coming up a lot on here in the last few weeks so just had a look there to see what kind of plan it would recommend me based on my PB's and what it gave me was underwhelming in one sense and absolutely insanely tough in another.

Midweek mileage was very low for what I would expect and some of the runs were exceptionally difficult. For instance, put in my half PB which is 6:34 per mile pace and it wanted me to do my last 2 long runs of 11.5 miles at 6.34 pace, basically racing just short of a half marathon for my last 2 long runs at half marathon pace before my target race.

Then I typed in my marathon time to see if that was any different, same thing with long runs of 18.5 and 22 miles at marathon pace as the two long runs before the taper with loads of tempo runs that were 8+ miles long. My 2 cents but I would avoid those plans like the plague as the workouts are insane and don't make any sense in my opinion and will more than likely do more harm than good in the long run.

Jaysus, sounds mad alright. Just checking now. There's a week, just three or four out that has the following. Rest, Rest, 3milesE, 5.5milesHard, Rest, 3 miles E and 22 miles at a little slower than M pace. Bloody bizarre. Would not go near that.

Macy0161

Itziger wrote: »

Jaysus, sounds mad alright. Just checking now. There's a week, just three or four out that has the following. Rest, Rest, 3milesE, 5.5milesHard, Rest, 3 miles E and 22 miles at a little slower than M pace. Bloody bizarre. Would not go near that.

Ok, I'll revisit. tbh it was the three day week plan (which is all I can fit in), and laziness of a click of a button switch from miles to km that attracted me. Plus I'm a sucker for an app!)

Bananaleaf

Itziger wrote: »

Well, the paces vary as you go through the plan I guess and certainly from run to run. Yes, a lot of runners feel impatient with the first couple of weeks of a plan 'cos they think the runs are too slow. There is no rush though. I'd be more worried if I looked at week 8 or 10 and saw a 'session' down that I knew I could already do in week 1. Does that make sense? How long is the plan, normally the longer the plan (18 weeks), the slower a the start. Whereas the relatively famous 8-week plan of the McMillan Ultimate 10k which a number of us have used on here, is tough from the first major session (6x1mile at 10k pace). Chuck up the plan, race and your target and we'd have a better chance of helping.

Thanks for the input.

So, the race is the AXA Raheney 5mile on 29th Jan.

Would like to do this in 45mins.

Currentl runs:
12k (10th Dec) 1hr 11mins
5k (03rd Dec) 28mins 07sec
10k (23rd Nov) 59min 03 sec

If I'm running around about a km in 6mins I'm thinking that at the moment my time would be 48mins or so, so I guess I'm looking to shave 3-4mins off my current time. Maths isn't my strong point but I think that means 30seconds a km.

My asics plan tells me the following:

1 week preconditioning - 4 runs (3mi, 5 mi, 3mi all around 13:07/mile and 1 5mi @ 12:11 - 11:16/mile)

7 weeks of 'getting faster - 4 runs per week which are all 3mi jog, 3mi fast, 3mi interval and 4.5mi fast (fast being 9.25/mile) My current race pace seems to be 9.40/mile according to the 12k so that probably seems fine

There are then two weeks of 'race stimulation' which require:
3mi jog (12.57/mile) and 5mi fast (9.36-9.14/mile) twice a week for 2 weeks.

So that is 4 5milers at race pace the two weeks before the event.

Week of the race are 2 3 miles jogs and one 3mile at race pace (9.04/mile) with the race pace day being Wed, the last jog being the Friday and the race itself being the Sunday.

I'm newish to running (only started in April) but really trying to learn as much as possible. The plan itself looks like after this week it will challenge me but was just wondering if it is okay to be going that slow to start. But now also wondering is it too much towards the end.

Long post - hopefully the detail makes sense

Thank you

Slow_Runner

Bananaleaf wrote: »

Itziger wrote: »

Well, the paces vary as you go through the plan I guess and certainly from run to run. Yes, a lot of runners feel impatient with the first couple of weeks of a plan 'cos they think the runs are too slow. There is no  rush though. I'd be more worried if I looked at week 8 or 10 and saw a 'session' down that I knew I could already do in week 1. Does that make sense? How long is the plan, normally the longer the plan (18 weeks), the slower a the start. Whereas the relatively famous 8-week plan of the McMillan Ultimate 10k which a number of us have used on here, is tough from the first major session (6x1mile at 10k pace). Chuck up the plan, race and your target and we'd have a better chance of helping.

Thanks for the input.

So, the race is the AXA Raheney 5mile on 29th Jan.

Would like to do this in 45mins.

Currentl runs:
12k (10th Dec) 1hr 11mins
5k (03rd Dec) 28mins 07sec
10k (23rd Nov) 59min 03 sec

If I'm running around about a km in 6mins I'm thinking that at the moment my time would be 48mins or so, so I guess I'm looking to shave 3-4mins off my current time. Maths isn't my strong point but I think that means 30seconds a km.

My asics plan tells me the following:

1 week preconditioning - 4 runs (3mi,  5 mi,  3mi all around 13:07/mile and 1 5mi @ 12:11 - 11:16/mile)

7 weeks of 'getting faster - 4 runs per week which are all 3mi jog, 3mi fast, 3mi interval and 4.5mi fast (fast being 9.25/mile) My current race pace seems to be 9.40/mile according to the 12k so that probably seems fine

There are then two weeks of 'race stimulation' which require:
3mi jog (12.57/mile) and 5mi fast (9.36-9.14/mile) twice a week for 2 weeks.

So that is 4 5milers at race pace the two weeks before the event.

Week of the race are 2 3 miles jogs and one 3mile at race pace (9.04/mile) with the race pace day being Wed, the last jog being the Friday and the race itself being the Sunday.

I'm newish to running (only started in April) but really trying to learn as much as possible.  The plan itself looks like after this week it will challenge me but was just wondering if it is okay to be going that slow to start.  But now also wondering is it too much towards the end.

Long post - hopefully the detail makes sense

Thank you

Correct me if I'm reading this wrong, your goal is a 5 mile race and the plan calls for 4 runs of 5 miles at race pace? And the week of the race is 3 miles at race pace 3 days out?
That to me seems crazy and will leave you burnt out or injured when you get to the start line. If it were me I'd swap those sessions with timed runs at tempo pace ie - run 20 mins "comfortably hard" with 10-20 min warm up and cool down before and after (comfortably hard is where you can still talk in short sentences when running) .As for race week just keep the legs ticking over - you will not gain any speed before the race.
Just remember to go out and enjoy it, if you are a new runner you probably don't know what you are truly capable of so just go out and give it a bash, go out at the race pace and see how you feel, push on from mile 3 or 4 if you feel you can - ease back if you think its too much. 5 miles is short enough to have a relatively short recovery time so if it doesn't go to plan, dust yourself off and do a park run a couple of weeks later.
The great thing I find about running is I'm always learning more of what I'm capable of (and not capable of ). Don't get caught up in worrying about the time, if it's your first 5 miler you're guaranteed a PB and will know what to expect if you want to better it.

Just my 2 cents and best of luck.

Bananaleaf

Slow_Runner wrote: »

Correct me if I'm reading this wrong, your goal is a 5 mile race and the plan calls for 4 runs of 5 miles at race pace? And the week of the race is 3 miles at race pace 3 days out?
That to me seems crazy and will leave you burnt out or injured when you get to the start line. If it were me I'd swap those sessions with timed runs at tempo pace ie - run 20 mins "comfortably hard" with 10-20 min warm up and cool down before and after (comfortably hard is where you can still talk in short sentences when running) .As for race week just keep the legs ticking over - you will not gain any speed before the race.
Just remember to go out and enjoy it, if you are a new runner you probably don't know what you are truly capable of so just go out and give it a bash, go out at the race pace and see how you feel, push on from mile 3 or 4 if you feel you can - ease back if you think its too much. 5 miles is short enough to have a relatively short recovery time so if it doesn't go to plan, dust yourself off and do a park run a couple of weeks later.
The great thing I find about running is I'm always learning more of what I'm capable of (and not capable of ). Don't get caught up in worrying about the time, if it's your first 5 miler you're guaranteed a PB and will know what to expect if you want to better it.

Just my 2 cents and best of luck.

Thank you!

Yeah, you are reading the plan right, except for the week of the race there are 3 runs, 2 jogs and 1 3mile at race pace. But yeah, the two weeks before 4 5mile runs at race pace.

I'm running 4 times per week all the time, I'm just working to a plan to make sure that I am pushing myself enough because I would like to improve my 10k time by a lot this year.

The Davestator

Something I've wondered about it when there are two 'speed bumps' at the start or end of a race - are these both timing mats, and if so, why two? One is normally about a metre or two from the other

ger664

The Davestator wrote:

Something I've wondered about it when there are two 'speed bumps' at the start or end of a race - are these both timing mats, and if so, why two? One is normally about a metre or two from the other

Timing mats will pick up at a certain rate. Having 2 at the start reduces the number of misses. Also in the bigger events like Dublin you will have 2 timing chips on your Bib and 3 or more mats at the start.

Events with one mat and chip at the start will have issues once they have 750 or more starters.

Macy0161

Feeling the sniffles coming on (long run yesterday in the rain may or may not be a factor). Previously, with a head cold I've turned down the intensity of workouts. But now I'm marathon training, where do LSR's fit into that thinking? Low intensity, but then a long time... So do I scale back distances for those already low intensity runs?

TFBubendorfer

Macy0161 wrote: »

Feeling the sniffles coming on (long run yesterday in the rain may or may not be a factor). Previously, with a head cold I've turned down the intensity of workouts. But now I'm marathon training, where do LSR's fit into that thinking? Low intensity, but then a long time... So do I scale back distances for those already low intensity runs?

My strategy was always that I run through headcolds but if it moves into the chest I take a few days off. Long runs didn't pose a particular problem but if you feel crap after 2 or 3 miles then call it a day and go home.

Macy0161

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

My strategy was always that I run through headcolds but if it moves into the chest I take a few days off. Long runs didn't pose a particular problem but if you feel crap after 2 or 3 miles then call it a day and go home.

Yeah, I use the above/ below the neck rule (except for sinus issues), but usually go steady rather than intervals/ fartleks or anything too intense even with an above the neck cold. It's just with the building mileage I wasn't sure how to handle it, and I'm taking that building the mileage is the most important session for a first marathon. As usual, listen to your body is actually what to do!

kave2

Hi everyone, need bit of advice. Started running 2 months ago, and now decided to do half marathon, probably the one in Limerick.

My PB 10k is 59.44, 5.99 pace. Running 3-4 times per week.

Half marathon is on 30th of April, that's giving me around 16 weeks. How should I approach this? If I keep adding 1k every week to my schedule, would that be ok? Thanks for advice?

walshb

kave2 wrote: »

Hi everyone, need bit of advice. Started running 2 months ago, and now decided to do half marathon, probably the one in Limerick.

My PB 10k is 59.44, 5.99 pace. Running 3-4 times per week.

Half marathon is on 30th of April, that's giving me around 16 weeks. How should I approach this? If I keep adding 1k every week to my schedule, would that be ok? Thanks for advice?

half marathon is 21 k. So keep putting in the miles and do more long runs at a slower pace, of course. Within "no time" you will be a lot more comfortable on these and your endurance will have improved. If you just want to complete the course without trying to race it then it's all about miles and miles on the road. Getting the long runs under your belt.

deisedude

kave2 wrote: »

Hi everyone, need bit of advice. Started running 2 months ago, and now decided to do half marathon, probably the one in Limerick.

My PB 10k is 59.44, 5.99 pace. Running 3-4 times per week.

Half marathon is on 30th of April, that's giving me around 16 weeks. How should I approach this? If I keep adding 1k every week to my schedule, would that be ok? Thanks for advice?

Get yourself a training plan. I've used a plan from Hal Highdon before which was helpful http://www.halhigdon.com/training/51130/Half-Marathon-Training-Guide

kave2

walshb wrote: »

half marathon is 21 k. So keep putting in the miles and do more long runs at a slower pace, of course. Within "no time" you will be a lot more comfortable on these and your endurance will have improved. If you just want to complete the course without trying to race it then it's all about miles and miles on the road. Getting the long runs under your belt.

I should probably set up target time, would motivate me even more. Would under 2 hours time too difficult to achieve?

walshb

kave2 wrote: »

I should probably set up target time, would motivate me even more. Would under 2 hours time too difficult to achieve?

You would need to focus then on a bit of speed/endurance training. If you just trained for endurance/distance, with your current 10 k time then two hrs would not happen. You would need to be in the low 50s for 10 k to stand a chance of 2 hrs or less at 21 ks. I think just completing the course would require little in terms of dedication. To do it in under two hours would be something to really aim for, and although tough, would be very rewarding.

kave2

walshb wrote: »

You would need to focus then on a bit of speed/endurance training. If you just trained for endurance/distance, with your current 10 k time then two hrs would not happen. You would need to be in the low 50s for 10 k to stand a chance of 2 hrs or less at 21 ks. I think just completing the course would require little in terms of dedication. To do it in under two hours would be something to really aim for, and although tough, would be very rewarding.

OK. What kind of training I need to do? So far I have been running for endurance/distance. Usually 3 long runs/1 short per week. Recently I noticed my times are improving nicely and I'm still adding the distance.

Just like when I got my PB this Wednesday. I started off fast, kept checking my pace, after couple of km, still fast. I thought to myself there is no way I'm gonna be able to keep it up but I actually did.

I'm going to start doing core exercises, and need to loose weight too to improve my times.

RayCun

First thing is, the only time to chase PBS is in races.Most of your running should be done at an easy pace.
If you are running four times a week you could do
Two regular runs, easy pace and distance
One long run, still an easy pace, gradually increasing the distance
One run where you do defined intervals at a faster pace, one you don't think you could sustain for a full run

kave2

RayCun wrote: »

First thing is, the only time to chase PBS is in races.Most of your running should be done at an easy pace.
If you are running four times a week you could do
Two regular runs, easy pace and distance
One long run, still an easy pace, gradually increasing the distance
One run where you do defined intervals at a faster pace, one you don't think you could sustain for a full run

How long should be this run and the intervals?

RayCun

kave2 wrote: »

How long should be this run and the intervals?

The intervals can be different every time. You could do a tempo run, twenty minutes comfortably hard in between a warmup and cool down. Or 6 x 800 at 5k pace with three minutes recovery. Or if you're running along a road with lights at regular intervals, run fast between two lights and jog between the next two. There are lots of variations. The key thing is that you are not just going out and running, you are running fast, faster than you could manage on a full run, for a distance you have defined in advance.

If you join a club, you'll be doing sessions like this regularly, and will have other people to run with on the way.

kave2

RayCun wrote: »

The intervals can be different every time. You could do a tempo run, twenty minutes comfortably hard in between a warmup and cool down. Or 6 x 800 at 5k pace with three minutes recovery. Or if you're running along a road with lights at regular intervals, run fast between two lights and jog between the next two. There are lots of variations. The key thing is that you are not just going out and running, you are running fast, faster than you could manage on a full run, for a distance you have defined in advance.

If you join a club, you'll be doing sessions like this regularly, and will have other people to run with on the way.

Thanks very much. Really appreciate it. I gonna stick with your schedule.

Bananaleaf

Hi all -

Trying to get the details of a new plan together as I'm not sure about myasics now...

When a plan tells you to run "5 miles easy" is 'easy' considered 80% of race pace?

Is a tempo run sort of half way between easy and race pace? So, 90% of race pace?

If my plan tells me to run a 'time trial' is that running against the clock? ie: 8mins to complete one mile? Is that not just the same as running at race pace though? Or is the idea to run for the 8:02 mins that it should take to do a mile, but see how far you can go?

I'm trying to get to grips with a plan I found in Irish Runner Magazine. It's a 5k in 25mins plan. 6 weeks. Week one gives me the following details:

Mon - REST
Tues - 1 mile easy, 3 x 1 mile, 2 mins recovery, 1 mile easy
Wed - 5 miles easy
Thursday - 1 mile easy, 3 miles tempo, 1 mile easy
Friday - REST
Sat - 2 miles easy, 1 mile time trial, 2 miles easy
Sun - 65mins

The plan states that the pace should be 1mile - 8:02. So I think that for me this means:

Mon - REST
Tues - 1 mile easy (10:02) 3 x 1 mile @ 8:02, 2 mins recovery, 1 mile easy (10:02)
Wed - 5 miles @ 10:02 pace
Thursday - 1 mile easy (10:02) 3 miles tempo (9:02) 1 mile easy (10:02)
Friday -REST
Sat - 2miles easy (10:02), 1 mile time trial (run for 8:02 mins and see how far I've gotten?) 2 miles easy (10:02)
Sun - 65 mins - Not sure if pace is important with this one or if it's just time on my feet.

This is literally after taking two hours to decipher - I had to watch videos/read up on what these terms (and others that come next week, like 'strides') mean.

Would love a second opinion on what I have decided upon for myself - I haven't worked out everything 100% correct I'm sure, but does it seem like a decent enough plan? I really like running and want to get educated on it.

It's a 5k in 25mins plan. Plan is 6 weeks long. I'm currently at 28:07. Have an 5mile in 6 weeks (8k) that I would love to do in 45mins, but no big deal if I don't either - just something to aim at really and in fact I half expect to probably fail in this first attempt - so was thinking that this plan would be a decent one to follow in the lead-up to the race and sure I'll see what happens on the day.

Thank you for reading and for any advice you have

hillsiderunner

Bananaleaf wrote: »

When a plan tells you to run "5 miles easy" is 'easy' considered 80% of race pace?

Should feel "genuinely easy". Beginners (and even people who've been running for ages) tend to cheat a bit on this. One "formula" would be to run in the range 5k-pace + 2:30-3:00 extra (per mile). From the current 5k pace you gave at the bottom your range would be 11:30-12:00 per mile for easy.

It does assume you were pushing to "race" the 5k. If it was a more-comfortable run, then you wouldn't need to add quite as much as 2:30-3:00.

Is a tempo run sort of half way between easy and race pace? So, 90% of race pace?

From a "raced" 5k mile-pace, the tempo is given as a bit slower than estimated 10k pace, common formula for "tempo" is 5k mile-pace + [0:30-0:40] per mile .. for you 9:30-9:40.

If my plan tells me to run a 'time trial' is that running against the clock?

Yep.

ie: 8mins to complete one mile?

well .. if that's what's possible for you, you'll only know once it's done. I think from a 5k that was roughly 9min pace (your 28:07), 8mins for the mile might be a bit of a stretch (assuming you "raced" the 5k, and have a bit of endurance).

Is that not just the same as running at race pace though?

Probably by "race pace" he means the (estimated?, target?) pace for your target race which is the 5k. From your chat above it seems it means target pace (as a 25mins 5k works out around about 8mins/mile).

Or is the idea to run for the 8:02 mins that it should take to do a mile, but see how far you can go?

I think do the full mile.

This part of the ASICS plans is the bit that's slightly controversial, as many people/plans would advise setting interval paces from "where you are" rather than looking forwards.

Looking at the values for tempo, easy given in week 2 of your plan.... they're a good bit faster than what is usually advised (off your current 5k pace). They are maybe working from target-pace possibly, can't be sure. But just keep an eye on whether their "easy" feels properly easy....

By the way, my estimates for easy, tempo, etc are coming from the 2015 Grads thread where poster Myles Splitz devised a plan. Just for reference:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=101424076&postcount=910

Bananaleaf

hillsiderunner wrote: »

I think do the full mile.

This part of the ASICS plans is the bit that's slightly controversial, as many people/plans would advise setting interval paces from "where you are" rather than looking forwards.

Looking at the values for tempo, easy given in week 2 of your plan.... they're a good bit faster than what is usually advised (off your current 5k pace). They are maybe working from target-pace possibly, can't be sure. But just keep an eye on whether their "easy" feels properly easy....

By the way, my estimates for easy, tempo, etc are coming from the 2015 Grads thread where poster Myles Splitz devised a plan. Just for reference:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=101424076&postcount=910

Wow - thank you very much for such detailed and decent feedback. Really appreciate it.

Yeah the pace is a target pace. It's definitely not my pace as my 28.07 5k was me pushing myself as far as I can go.

It is pretty safe to say that a 45min 5mile is out of my grasp within the next 6 weeks so, but that is totally fine. I'll still keep aiming towards it anyway as there is no harm. Yes, 9:30/40 is more my pace at the minute. I will start there and hopefully as the weeks go by I will notice an improvement.

I've also gotten in touch with my local running club and they have invited me up this week to check it out, so if I like that I will start up with them in the new year too.

thanks for your help hillsiderunner

hillsiderunner

Bananaleaf wrote: »

It is pretty safe to say that a 45min 5mile is out of my grasp within the next 6 weeks so, but that is totally fine. I'll still keep aiming towards it anyway as there is no harm. Yes, 9:30/40 is more my pace at the minute. I will start there and hopefully as the weeks go by I will notice an improvement.

To be honest, a plan aiming to get you 25mins in 6weeks is a bit ambitious/(mad ) unless you're new to things and have some early gains to make (I'm trying to improve my own 5k time right now so I've an idea of what it's like).

Might be better to work with an easier "race pace" like 26:30 or 27 to be honest. And don't worry at all about slowing down the "easy" runs from what they suggest.

The running club will be a great source of advice for you, good idea.

Spirogyra

Do you stetch or stand much during the day after a run? or if your sitting down do you try to strech your legs ? a lot of cramp several hours or even in bed/ the day after lately. Perhaps I'm too sedentary after my run? trying to stretch more today throughout the day, not just immediately after.

Neady83

Spirogyra wrote: »

Do you stetch or stand much during the day after a run? or if your sitting down do you try to strech your legs ? a lot of cramp several hours or even in bed/ the day after lately. Perhaps I'm too sedentary after my run? trying to stretch more today throughout the day, not just immediately after.

There are many more qualified than me here to answer this. My work is sedentary so I sit for most of the day - I try to get up every hour and go for a quick walk around the building.

Magnesium supplements can help to prevent cramping?

ger664

Neady83 wrote:

Magnesium supplements can help to prevent cramping?

+1

IvoryTower

Chest infection

How do you know when you're okay to run again?