Random Running Questions

adrian522

What are your thoughts on Base building?

How do you go about it, do you still run sessions, if so how many and what type?

Also is there no racing at all during this phase?

Reading P&D at the moment and its pretty much all easy and steady running for 10 weeks with maybe 3 tempo runs in that time. But from reading elsewhere and talking to people there are certainly different approaches so was wondering what people around here do.

Krusty_Clown

adrian522 wrote: »

What are your thoughts on Base building?

How do you go about it, do you still run sessions, if so how many and what type?

Also is there no racing at all during this phase?

Reading P&D at the moment and its pretty much all easy and steady running for 10 weeks with maybe 3 tempo runs in that time. But from reading elsewhere and talking to people there are certainly different approaches so was wondering what people around here do.

Without the intention of sounding condescending, the purpose of base building is exactly that - to build a base. Essentially to build a platform on which to launch more race-specific training. To create a foundation upon which you can complete more rigorous goal-specific training. The thing is that base building (like all training) needs to be quite athlete specific and quite goal-specific. My base-building will build my mileage up to my typical weekly marathon mileage, feature a general development in the LT space (start at 20 mins LT building over an 8-10 week period to 45 minutes), and gradually start implementing some of the goal specific work.

This is Magness' base building phase for 5k training, which I've followed a number of times. Bear in mind, this is page 1/3 of the broad training program (22-24 weeks). You can see the early focus is on building LT, with very little race-specific stuff. I've actually run my 10 mile PB on the back of this 5k base building. His marathon base building has a similar LT progression, but starts integrating the race-pace much sooner (as marathon pace is a lot closer to LT than 5k pace, which you need to build up to).

Base building isn't something you should really do in isolation of a plan, but rather as an integrated step in your training plan that gradually gets you ready for the rigors of your race specific training and race pace. I usually try to squeeze in a race or two, but without taking them too seriously or having any significant impact on my training (no taper, minimal recovery).

Itziger

And by 'minimal recovery' Krusty means only two runs the day after the race!!
It's funny 'cos it's true.

El Caballo

There are plenty of different approaches to base building. A lot of steady running with fartleks and a few strides would be an old school type approach ala Lydiard, not much faster than a little above marathon pace. That would be called linear periodisation as the phases progress from high volume to high intensity through a season. The focus in this will be one system in isolation at a time ie. Base=aerobic



Magness as mentioned above follows a more mordern ideaology called funnel periodisation which was built on top of Lydiards ideas. This is typically what you will see top Kenyans doing now. This is a slightly more complicated approach in that the phases aren't used in isolation. Base is looked at as a time to work on the foundation of both aerobic endurance and base speed.



Training starts with a mix of both steady pace running and short really intense speed work like hill sprints and really short sprints. Thhey contrast and are both non-specific to the race early on but become more specific as the phases progress. i.e start with short repeats that build into race specific repeats as the season goes on start with high volume aerobic runs that progress into steady and Marathon pace runs etc.

The idea behind this is just like you need a good aerobic base for endurance, you need a good neuromuscular(speed) base to run speed work down the road. Very early season examples of the speedwork involved in this would be 6x8s hill sprints which progress into workouts of 4x80m+2x100m sprints or 12x8s hill sprints if you get my drift.

The effects of this can be really something else. I don't have any real life experience of doing that but one of the club legends from the 80s(48 min 10 mile) is currently coaching a mate of mine and although he has no formal coaching experience or coaching experience full stop, he seems to intuitively understand this approach into and over the last year, has used a very slow progressing funnel of just base training which has dropped my mates PB from 18:xx to sub-16:30 with zero specific speedwork yet. Just a good dose of moderate effort volume and sprintwork. Sounds too good to be true but it's not, really drove home for me how important base training both speed and endurance is and the base phase is period. Base training is the most important and most undervalued phase of training. The vast majority of people don't even bother doing it as for some reason, the belief seems to be that race pace intervals all year round are the way forward in training which is a bit like trying to hang a shelf without any brackets.

adrian522

Thanks all, I wished I'd have posted this question 2 months ago but nonetheless its a really interesting conversation to have. I've never really done any speedwork of the type described above but I did do a fair bit of hill sprints, but more like 1 min hills. I guess I've plenty of tempo type work done too.

I'd probably like to have more miles logged at this stage but in future I'd like to structure this a bit better and put a bit of a plan in place for this time of year.

davedanon

Joined the Boards strava group tonight, but my stats aren't appearing. Is there some sort of probationary period for this particular group...?

Working class heroes

davedanon wrote: »

Joined the Boards strava group tonight, but my stats aren't appearing. Is there some sort of probationary period for this particular group...?

You have to learn the handshake first.

RayCun

davedanon wrote: »

Joined the Boards strava group tonight, but my stats aren't appearing. Is there some sort of probationary period for this particular group...?

You're in now, #24 on the leaderboard

RayCun

adrian522 wrote: »

I'd probably like to have more miles logged at this stage but in future I'd like to structure this a bit better and put a bit of a plan in place for this time of year.

It's hard to manage while doing weekly club sessions, because those sessions aren't going to include a base-building block. Too many people on different racing schedules

davedanon

RayCun wrote: »

You're in now, #24 on the leaderboard

Cool.

adrian522

RayCun wrote: »

It's hard to manage while doing weekly club sessions, because those sessions aren't going to include a base-building block. Too many people on different racing schedules

Yeah, it's quite hard to balance alright, particularly with XC going on at the same time.

Coffee Fulled Runner

I know there are videos online on how to improve your cadence. But has anyone here spent much time trying to improve there's and did it make much of a difference? I average around 172 per minute but I think I have a tendency to over stride.

scotindublin

Not so much a random question but a request for some advice.....will be away with work for a couple of weeks and will be limited to treadmill running during the week. Any tips or advice?

Cheers

Craig

adrian522

Coffee Fulled Runner wrote: »

I know there are videos online on how to improve your cadence. But has anyone here spent much time trying to improve there's and did it make much of a difference? I average around 172 per minute but I think I have a tendency to over stride.

Mine comes in at about 155 usually (on garmin or strava), I've tried to increase it a few times but I've never had much success with it to be honest. 172 sounds like about right though.

scotindublin wrote: »

Not so much a random question but a request for some advice.....will be away with work for a couple of weeks and will be limited to treadmill running during the week. Any tips or advice?

Cheers

Craig

I always struggle to hit the same paces on a treadmill that I do outside. Most people say to set the incline to 1% to compensate. I always feel a treadmill session is something to get through rather than something to enjoy.

I notice some people doing sesisons on a treadmill but I've never done one.

Chartsengrafs

scotindublin wrote: »

Not so much a random question but a request for some advice.....will be away with work for a couple of weeks and will be limited to treadmill running during the week. Any tips or advice?

Cheers

Craig

Suss the machines out beforehand and select one in closest proximity to an air conditioning vent, if possible. Don't be afraid to ease into the run nice and slowly.

hot buttered scones

Coffee Fulled Runner wrote:

I know there are videos online on how to improve your cadence. But has anyone here spent much time trying to improve there's and did it make much of a difference? I average around 172 per minute but I think I have a tendency to over stride.

I tried this for a while - mostly because I got a new watch with a cadence function. It feels weird running slowly with high cadence. You have to shorten your stride. I'm not sure if it improved anything really, although it did help a bit with a niggly hamstring at the time. My cadence would be about 165 to 170 for easy runs, but always hits around 180 when racing or doing a session. I'd say the general advice for improving form and turnover would be to do drills and strides - I don't do drills but would try and do strides once a week at least.

Krusty_Clown

scotindublin wrote: »

Not so much a random question but a request for some advice.....will be away with work for a couple of weeks and will be limited to treadmill running during the week. Any tips or advice?

Any particular reason you can't run outside when you're away? Heading out for a run when travelling for work, is one of the few privileges of work travel.

Tips:

• Have a goal. Don't step onto the treadmill without a specific goal in mind as it'll turn into a horrific mind-numbing experience, or worse - out of sheer boredom, you'll end up doing something you shouldn't, like running too fast on consecutive days, or overdoing it for your recovery runs.
• Variety: Do something different with every visit. One day do intervals, next day recovery, next day tempo, next day progression run, etc.
• Distraction: Radio/Podcasts/something/anything!
• Know your kilometer/mile/pace/speed conversion charts. No predicting what the treadmill will be reporting. Also, don't trust the numbers - better to work off effort.
• You'll sweat a lot more - more liquids and more bodyglide!
• Don't pick the treadmill in front of the mirror. There's only so much time it is healthy and legal to look at your own reflection!
• If you have a choice.... Go outside!

scotindublin

Thanks Krusty the trip is spanning over two weeks so will use the first few days to suss out the area so hopefully get some outdoors running! Will thankfully be back here at the weekend to get out aswell!

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Any particular reason you can't run outside when you're away? Heading out for a run when travelling for work, is one of the few privileges of work travel.

Tips:

• Have a goal. Don't step onto the treadmill without a specific goal in mind as it'll turn into a horrific mind-numbing experience, or worse - out of sheer boredom, you'll end up doing something you shouldn't, like running too fast on consecutive days, or overdoing it for your recovery runs.
• Variety: Do something different with every visit. One day do intervals, next day recovery, next day tempo, next day progression run, etc.
• Distraction: Radio/Podcasts/something/anything!
• Know your kilometer/mile/pace/speed conversion charts. No predicting what the treadmill will be reporting. Also, don't trust the numbers - better to work off effort.
• You'll sweat a lot more - more liquids and more bodyglide!
• Don't pick the treadmill in front of the mirror. There's only so much time it is healthy and legal to look at your own reflection!
• If you have a choice.... Go outside!

BeepBeep67

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Any particular reason you can't run outside when you're away? Heading out for a run when travelling for work, is one of the few privileges of work travel.

Agree - I know some of the places I visit for work better than my colleagues who live there !!

gucci

Coffee Fulled Runner wrote: »

I know there are videos online on how to improve your cadence. But has anyone here spent much time trying to improve there's and did it make much of a difference? I average around 172 per minute but I think I have a tendency to over stride.

Just on this, how does Strava etc calculate your cadence? Is it some sort of algorithm based on your pace and the ground conditions from the gps mapping? Does it take into account your height data or am i over thinking it?

(I have done a 20 second google and not found an answer!)

RayCun

gucci wrote: »

Just on this, how does Strava etc calculate your cadence? Is it some sort of algorithm based on your pace and the ground conditions from the gps mapping? Does it take into account your height data or am i over thinking it?

Strava gets that information from your watch.

afaik, the Garmin heart rate monitor has an accelerometer built in. That detects vertical oscillation - every step you take you are lifting up and dropping down to the ground again, and so it is counting bounces.

gucci

Thanks thats probably it! I guess sort of like Smart phones have the step counter apps in them, the watches are the same. There must be something in Forerunner 220 to detect it as I use it without the heart rate monitor, but I see there is a cadence rate there. (168spm yesterday for a long run)

insomniak

Every runner I own gets destroyed in the same part, even just by walking. The inside part of my heel, how do I stop this from happening

Also what is the best breathing techniques as I know mine are poor

Macy0161

Coffee Fulled Runner wrote: »

I know there are videos online on how to improve your cadence. But has anyone here spent much time trying to improve there's and did it make much of a difference? I average around 172 per minute but I think I have a tendency to over stride.

I don't know whether it made much of a difference as I was working on other aspects of my form, but I worked on mine over the winter. I used the metronome function on my garmin, and gradually upped it by a few beats week, generally just on one of my (harder) runs. I have found subsequently that I've naturally shortened my stride/ picked up my cadence at the end of long runs when I've begun to struggle, which I assume is a good thing!

It's supposed to help prevent over striding and heel strikes. I can only say that it was other aspects of my form that showed up when I belated did a biomechanical assessment! Maybe it would've showed up as an issue, maybe it wouldn't.

Johnny_Fontane

What are peoples thoughts on post marathon training/races? Did a recovery run (like 4k) on saturday which was 6 days after marathon. Feeling good this week and will do a couple of runs with nothing major.

Feel like taking on a really fast parkrun to tackle my PB, is this madness two weeks after a marathon?

jameshayes

Johnny_Fontane wrote: »

What are peoples thoughts on post marathon training/races? Did a recovery run (like 4k) on saturday which was 6 days after marathon. Feeling good this week and will do a couple of runs with nothing major.

Feel like taking on a really fast parkrun to tackle my PB, is this madness two weeks after a marathon?

A days rest for every mile raced was the rule of thumb i heard before

BeepBeep67

Johnny_Fontane wrote: »

What are peoples thoughts on post marathon training/races? Did a recovery run (like 4k) on saturday which was 6 days after marathon. Feeling good this week and will do a couple of runs with nothing major.

Feel like taking on a really fast parkrun to tackle my PB, is this madness two weeks after a marathon?

Do your taper in reverse, but listen to your body.

Gavlor

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Without the intention of sounding condescending, the purpose of base building is exactly that - to build a base. Essentially to build a platform on which to launch more race-specific training. To create a foundation upon which you can complete more rigorous goal-specific training. The thing is that base building (like all training) needs to be quite athlete specific and quite goal-specific. My base-building will build my mileage up to my typical weekly marathon mileage, feature a general development in the LT space (start at 20 mins LT building over an 8-10 week period to 45 minutes), and gradually start implementing some of the goal specific work.

This is Magness' base building phase for 5k training, which I've followed a number of times. Bear in mind, this is page 1/3 of the broad training program (22-24 weeks). You can see the early focus is on building LT, with very little race-specific stuff. I've actually run my 10 mile PB on the back of this 5k base building. His marathon base building has a similar LT progression, but starts integrating the race-pace much sooner (as marathon pace is a lot closer to LT than 5k pace, which you need to build up to).

Base building isn't something you should really do in isolation of a plan, but rather as an integrated step in your training plan that gradually gets you ready for the rigors of your race specific training and race pace. I usually try to squeeze in a race or two, but without taking them too seriously or having any significant impact on my training (no taper, minimal recovery).

One mans base building is another mans marathon plan!!

TFBubendorfer

jameshayes wrote: »

A days rest for every mile raced was the rule of thumb i heard before

It's not rest - just easy running instead of hard workouts.

Krusty_Clown

gucci wrote: »

Thanks thats probably it! I guess sort of like Smart phones have the step counter apps in them, the watches are the same. There must be something in Forerunner 220 to detect it as I use it without the heart rate monitor, but I see there is a cadence rate there. (168spm yesterday for a long run)

Yes, the newer Garmin watches (FR220+) have an acceleromater in the watches and some can use the run dynamics from the advanced HRM strap.