Random Running Questions

Henry42

So I'm doing marathon training, and I fear that I may be doing my long runs too quickly.

Is the danger here that my recovery times will be too long after the long runs, thus impacting on the rest of my training, or will I actually not derive the correct aerobic benefits from the runs at all? i.e. I'll have been training in the wrong zone.

RayCun

Henry42 wrote: »

So I'm doing marathon training, and I fear that I may be doing my long runs too quickly.

Is the danger here that my recovery times will be too long after the long runs, thus impacting on the rest of my training, or will I actually not derive the correct aerobic benefits from the runs at all? i.e. I'll have been training in the wrong zone.

Both.

Running too hard on your long run increases the stress it produces, so your recovery is slower. If you take the time to recover from them, you miss training during the week. If you don't take the time, you risk overtraining, exhaustion and injury.

Plus, the pace you run at will change the energy systems you use, how aerobic or anaerobic your run is. You want to train yourself to run aerobically, using fat as much as possible rather than glycogen, because the marathon is too long for you to do anything else. If you run fast, you are driving different adaptations.

HigginsJ

RayCun wrote: »

Both.

Running too hard on your long run increases the stress it produces, so your recovery is slower. If you take the time to recover from them, you miss training during the week. If you don't take the time, you risk overtraining, exhaustion and injury.

Plus, the pace you run at will change the energy systems you use, how aerobic or anaerobic your run is. You want to train yourself to run aerobically, using fat as much as possible rather than glycogen, because the marathon is too long for you to do anything else. If you run fast, you are driving different adaptations.

Probably really stupid question here but what is the best way to recognise what zone you are in? Is HR and a HR monitor the best way to do this?

Johnny_Fontane

Henry42 wrote: »

So I'm doing marathon training, and I fear that I may be doing my long runs too quickly.

Is the danger here that my recovery times will be too long after the long runs, thus impacting on the rest of my training, or will I actually not derive the correct aerobic benefits from the runs at all? i.e. I'll have been training in the wrong zone.

I did my first marathon a couple of weeks ago and I had the EXACT same question beforehand. I did most of my longer runs about 10-15 seconds slower per km than I did the actual marathon, you probably should be doing it 30 seconds or so slower, so we're talking really small margins. I felt completely bolloxed after my second 20 miler but didn't feel any of that during the marathon itself (after a 3 week taper). I'd trust the plan you are on and if you feel good running your long runs at a decent pace and you're not getting injured, keep doing it. The more longer runs you do, the more you will learn how much recovery you need.

RayCun

HigginsJ wrote: »

Probably really stupid question here but what is the best way to recognise what zone you are in? Is HR and a HR monitor the best way to do this?

you can estimate from race times. The McMillan calculator will give you ranges for easy runs etc based on a recent race.

Or the old rule of thumb is long runs a minute/mile slower than planned marathon pace, so 10 minute miles if you're training for a 4 hour marathon (a minute/mile is just under 40 seconds/km)

Or just that a really easy pace is one where you can carry on a conversation (or sing!) without trouble.

Henry42

RayCun wrote: »

Both.

Running too hard on your long run increases the stress it produces, so your recovery is slower. If you take the time to recover from them, you miss training during the week. If you don't take the time, you risk overtraining, exhaustion and injury.

Plus, the pace you run at will change the energy systems you use, how aerobic or anaerobic your run is. You want to train yourself to run aerobically, using fat as much as possible rather than glycogen, because the marathon is too long for you to do anything else. If you run fast, you are driving different adaptations.

Okay, cheers.

I'm doing it "by feel" at the moment, although I should have a HR monitor within the next few days to make sure.
If I'm running just a little too fast, I'm sure I'm getting some benefits aerobically, rather than just none.

To be precise, my HM race pace is about 5min/km. I'm doing my marathon long runs at around 5:30 min/km at the moment.

RayCun

Henry42 wrote: »

To be precise, my HM race pace is about 5min/km. I'm doing my marathon long runs at around 5:30 min/km at the moment.

So you can run a half marathon in about 1.45, I'd expect your marathon to be a few minutes under 4 hours but that's the pace you are running your long runs at. (McMillan is very optimistic about marathon times)

RayCun

There was a good thread a few years back, about first marathon times and how they compared to half marathons
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=86583749

HigginsJ

RayCun wrote: »

McMillan is very optimistic about marathon times

Looks to be very bloody optimistic, suggests a 1:50:06 HM can bring you to a 3:51:43 Marathon. That is not going to happen!!

jameshayes

HigginsJ wrote: »

Looks to be very bloody optimistic, suggests a 1:50:06 HM can bring you to a 3:51:43 Marathon. That is not going to happen!!

The runnersworld updated calculator seems to be quite a good representation if you enter all the optional data http://www.runnersworld.com/tools/race-time-predictor

Myles Splitz

HigginsJ wrote: »

Looks to be very bloody optimistic, suggests a 1:50:06 HM can bring you to a 3:51:43 Marathon. That is not going to happen!!

jameshayes wrote: »

The runnersworld updated calculator seems to be quite a good representation if you enter all the optional data http://www.runnersworld.com/tools/race-time-predictor

I would say that McMillan is accurate for what it is designed for as context is important. When you look at McMillan it is worth noting a few things

- McMillan's background is as an US Elite Marathon coach. As such his idea of marathon training is different than many of us (less than 50 mpw in your first year or two training would not be considered as being aerobically prepared for 10k let alone marathon hence the perceived aggressiveness)

Compare that to the runners world calculator based around research of recreational runners it will be more conservative

FWIW here is how my times stack up based off my 10k PB using McMillan

Distance|predicted|actual
1500m|4.22|4.21
3000m|9.21|9.21
5k|16.27|16.25
10k|34.10|34.10
10M|57.06|56.54
HM|1.16.10|1.16.01
MAR|2.40.18|2.43.03

I think McMillan can be accurate provided you have the aerobic base. If the times look out of whack based off other results this could indicate an area that needs to be improved

RayCun

I still think you won't find many people who outperform the marathon time predicted from their half marathon time, while you might find more variation in 10k or 5k times

davedanon

RayCun wrote: »

I still think you won't find many people who outperform the marathon time predicted from their half marathon time, while you might find more variation in 10k or 5k times

Mine are pretty much spot on, but my half pb has me running a marathon 4 minutes quicker than I've currently managed.

rainbow kirby

RayCun wrote: »

I still think you won't find many people who outperform the marathon time predicted from their half marathon time, while you might find more variation in 10k or 5k times

When I set my marathon PB I ran about 4 minutes faster than the McMillan prediction based on a half :pac:

Krusty_Clown

rainbow kirby wrote: »

When I set my marathon PB I ran about 4 minutes faster than the McMillan prediction based on a half :pac:

Was it Manchester?

rainbow kirby

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Was it Manchester?

Nope :pac:

Ran my half marathon into a storm (7 miles of headwind and sideways rain) and was predicted around 4:03 for the marathon based on the finish time, ran 3:59 on the day.

Johnny_Fontane

that runnersworld website is pretty spot on. Ran a 1.36 half, sub 44 min 10k, it predicted a 3.34.15, actually ran 2 minutes slower.

frankie2shoes

Random running question here!
I'm running the Paris half on sunday, hopefully.
I have a bib for 1hr50 but plan to run closer to 1hr40. Any advice on managing my run?
Do I get to the front of the group and try pushing through the heavy traffic or hang back and push harder when the field has thinned out a bit?
All suggestions welcome....

The Davestator

frankie2shoes wrote: »

Random running question here!
I'm running the Paris half on sunday, hopefully.
I have a bib for 1hr50 but plan to run closer to 1hr40. Any advice on managing my run?
Do I get to the front of the group and try pushing through the heavy traffic or hang back and push harder when the field has thinned out a bit?
All suggestions welcome....

I've never ran the Paris half, but if its anything like the full, it didnt thin out for 30k!

Personally, I wouldn't like to leave myself too much to do later in the race - rather get into my pace and stay there

TFBubendorfer

frankie2shoes wrote: »

Random running question here!
I'm running the Paris half on sunday, hopefully.
I have a bib for 1hr50 but plan to run closer to 1hr40. Any advice on managing my run?
Do I get to the front of the group and try pushing through the heavy traffic or hang back and push harder when the field has thinned out a bit?
All suggestions welcome....

Try to run 1:40 pace from the start but not at the cost of having to weave through heavy traffic. If it's too congested then just relax and keep in mind that it's better to start too slow and have something in the tank than it is to start too fast and end up dying on your feet before the end.

The crowds will thin out eventually. Once they do, get up to pace. If you lost time, don't try to make it up within a mile, just keep going sensibly.

Spirogyra

It's pretty unlikely that I'd want to do the Dublin Marathon this year (I do want to sometime though), however I did notice that a lot of the 'best accommodation' is gone already. Where do other's normally stay?.

Itziger

Spirogyra wrote: »

It's pretty unlikely that I'd want to do the Dublin Marathon this year (I do want to sometime though), however I did notice that a lot of the 'best accommodation' is gone already. Where do other's normally stay?.

At home?

YFlyer

What would be the best bus/Luas route from Heuston Station to the National Sport Campus in Abbotstown? Looking to get to the National University Cross Country Championships that are held on Saturday.

Thanks

Dubgal72

V

YFlyer wrote: »

What would be the best bus/Luas route from Heuston Station to the National Sport Campus in Abbotstown? Looking to get to the National University Cross Country Championships that are held on Saturday.

Thanks

I just did an involuntary shudder there. The NSC is really not public transport friendly AT ALL. Whatever you do, do not attempt to go there - or back - at rush hour (I did a six hour round trip from Bray recently incl 40 mins of actual running and that included warm up and warm down!).

Get a Luas into the city centre. The 38 or 38A goes from O'Connell St. This will drop you right at the entrance and you have a 5 min or so jog down to the cross country course.

Personally, I'd suck up the €17 it would take in a taxi from Heuston. You can take the scenic route back on the bus. Good luck!

YFlyer

Dubgal72 wrote: »

V

I just did an involuntary shudder there. The NSC is really not public transport friendly AT ALL. Whatever you do, do not attempt to go there - or back - at rush hour (I did a six hour round trip from Bray recently incl 40 mins of actual running and that included warm up and warm down!).

Get a Luas into the city centre. The 38 or 38A goes from O'Connell St. This will drop you right at the entrance and you have a 5 min or so jog down to the cross country course.

Personally, I'd suck up the €17 it would take in a taxi from Heuston. You can take the scenic route back on the bus. Good luck!

Thanks. That's great

Chivito550

YFlyer wrote: »

What would be the best bus/Luas route from Heuston Station to the National Sport Campus in Abbotstown? Looking to get to the National University Cross Country Championships that are held on Saturday.

Thanks

It's pure misery of a journey. Public transport doesn't seem to ever come into the equation in this country when things are being built. Any other country and it would have been located close to a rail line. Not here.

I did the trip to and from on both the Saturday and Sunday of Nationals. Times door to door from Ballinteer were:

Saturday out: 95 mins
Saturday back: 2 hours
Sunday out: 2 hours 10 mins

Didn't bother paying attention to the clock on the way back on the Sunday.

The 38 or 38a go out there. The 40d also. The 39a goes to Blanchardstown centre so a bit of a walk. The Maynooth train to Castleknock is probably a 30 min walk, unless there's a short cut.

It's a miserable journey from the south side as connections are brutal. Missed my connection by 1 minute so had 25 min wait for next bus.

I'd get the LUAS to Abbey St and then jump on one of the above buses.

Yer man who works there was talling us they are hoping to use the venue for gigs. Pure delusion to think any half decent artist will be playing in such an isolated area. It's all well and good driving to sports events. People ain't going to drive to gigs if they want to have a few beers.

ThisRegard

The best bus from the city centre is the 40D in terms of getting you reasonably close the quickest. It leaves you with about a 1.5k walk, the problem is it's lack of regularity, every half hour or so.

It's not an isolated area, just for those living far on the south side. The same could be said for Marlay Park as that's a nightmare to get to unless you live in the general area and that gets plenty of gigs. At least there's parking in the sports campus

Chivito550

ThisRegard wrote: »

The best bus from the city centre is the 40D in terms of getting you reasonably close the quickest. It leaves you with about a 1.5k walk, the problem is it's lack of regularity, every half hour or so.

It's not an isolated area, just for those living far on the south side. The same could be said for Marlay Park as that's a nightmare to get to unless you live in the general area and that gets plenty of gigs. At least there's parking in the sports campus

The 16 bus is way more regular than those buses listed above, and it drops you right at the gate. There's also a pub right across the road, ideal for gig goers. The 14 bus also leaves you a few minutes walk away.

In any case, that's an outdoor gig venue. The guy working there was saying the track could be used for indoor gigs, when the bends are lowered and track covered. Far more convienient locations for indoors gigs in the city or on good public transport routes. Outdoor gigs tend to be out of the city unless in a stadium. Not comparing like with like.

ThisRegard

I know the venues are not comparable, I'm not saying they are.

My point is access.

It's all relative. Anyone living on the north/north west of the city the NSC can be fierce handy, while Marlay Park is a pain in the ass to get to. At least 2 buses, similar to you getting to the campus from the southside.

Plus there's plenty of pubs within walking distance of the campus, probably more than Marlay? And there's more buses back in to the city within walking distance.

Chivito550

ThisRegard wrote: »

I know the venues are not comparable, I'm not saying they are.

My point is access.

It's all relative. Anyone living on the north/north west of the city the NSC can be fierce handy, while Marlay Park is a pain in the ass to get to. At least 2 buses, similar to you getting to the campus from the southside.

Plus there's plenty of pubs within walking distance of the campus, probably more than Marlay? And there's more buses back in to the city within walking distance.

Anywhere in Dublin is a pain in the ass to get to, unless it's on a LUAS or DART line, or the Stillorgan dual carriageway routes. But it actually only takes me about 45 minutes more to get to AIT by public transport from my house than it takes to get to Abbotstown. That says it all.

Wonderful facility. It's location however sums up the apathy towards public transport in this country. I asked the guy working out there the first day I was there training (had a lift that day) how does one get there by PT. his answer was "there's buses". He hadn't a notion what ones. Look at the website and there is zero information about how to get there by public transport.

If there was joined up thinking, facilities like this could be built on the vast amounts of land near Adamstown, between Lusk and Balbriggan or out near Leixlip area. All these are on existing rail lines, which would hopefully be a further push to get DART Underground up and running, which would make such a facility so accessible in the future. Alternatively there's a rake of unused land on the LUAS Green Line. Instead we just built things in areas poorly serviced by buses. Car culture alive and well.