Random Running Questions

RayCun

Average pace, and yes, that should be fairly steady through the interval (and across the set of intervals)

ariana`

Can anyone explain, or point me in the direct of a resource that explains, the basics of training with heart rate. Is it pointless without full lab testing analytics or can it still be beneficial?

conavitzky

ariana` wrote: »

Can anyone explain, or point me in the direct of a resource that explains, the basics of training with heart rate. Is it pointless without full lab testing analytics or can it still be beneficial?

I think it can be effective if you establish your Lactate Threshold heart rate (approx 1 hr race pace). There can be big gains to be made if you can improve your pace at this HR.
This test is usually done on a treadmill with a pin prick blood sample taken at the end of a section of a graded run (speed increased every so often until your can go no further).
I got a test done last year and based on the results I was given a training plan to follow for DCM last year. I didnt use it. I just used the information gathered to inform my own coaches training plan. I used the LT HR for my threshold runs and made sure not to go above a certain HR on my easy or recovery days.
I personally wouldnt get too bogged down in it. Dont let it guide your training. Use it as a tool when needed. External influences such as weather, sleep, hydration can throw out your HR a nice bit. There is also the issue of HR lag. You may be given a session of 5x1 mile intervals at LT or 30mins at LT. If you use HR as a guide and you are not warmed up properly you could chase your LT HR and end up doing the first interval too fast and not get the overall stimulus from the session.
It took me a while to adjust to this. I usually go by LT pace for the first rep or first 5-6 mins of a continuous LT run and let HR guide me from there.
Those or my experiences anyway FWIW.
There is a website by a guy called Joe Friel that gives a good run down of the different zones, etc if you google him.

hot buttered scones

Quick training question - the marathon training plan I'm currently following for Cork has 8 miles with 4@HMP for tomorrow and 14 miles long on Sunday. All the other days are easy days and it's a step back week. Instead of Sunday's run I'm doing a 10k race, so I'm considering dropping tomorrows session in favour of something like a 10 mile easy run, but I really am in two minds about this. I'm thinking the 10k race will kind of be a substitute for tomorrows session. Or will the 4@HMP be of benefit come Sunday? I'm not too concerned about mileage this week. So what do people think? Stick to the plan (except for the race) or drop the session? Or maybe something else - a different session maybe? I'll be back on the plan next week in any case. I'd be interested to see what peoples opinions are. Thanks in advance as always.

Seannew1

I've been training a lot since last October; joined a local club and have been focussing on speed work. I got a new PB on half marathon in January but I really want a nail a good 5k/10k time. I haven't been doing much races but last weekend, I did a park run in 23.40. I would have gotten that last summer so feel like I haven't improved race paces. Should some races bring me on further??
Thanks, concerned runner

Spirogyra

Tell us more about your 'speed work'? that's not a bad 5k time and I'm sure that better will follow, gradually. Interval and Tempo work plus more races should help Your lactic acid threshold willl gradually improve and with better weather hopefully on the way, that will help too

I think the great thing about 5 and 10k's is that they can be run nearly every week if one want's to and recovery time is quick ,usually

yaboya1

hot buttered scones wrote: »

Quick training question - the marathon training plan I'm currently following for Cork has 8 miles with 4@HMP for tomorrow and 14 miles long on Sunday. All the other days are easy days and it's a step back week. Instead of Sunday's run I'm doing a 10k race, so I'm considering dropping tomorrows session in favour of something like a 10 mile easy run, but I really am in two minds about this. I'm thinking the 10k race will kind of be a substitute for tomorrows session. Or will the 4@HMP be of benefit come Sunday? I'm not too concerned about mileage this week. So what do people think? Stick to the plan (except for the race) or drop the session? Or maybe something else - a different session maybe? I'll be back on the plan next week in any case. I'd be interested to see what peoples opinions are. Thanks in advance as always.

If it was me I'd switch Wednesday & Sunday around, doing the 14m run today and the race instead of the 4@HMP. Not sure what others think?

hot buttered scones

yaboya1 wrote: »

If it was me I'd switch Wednesday & Sunday around, doing the 14m run today and the race instead of the 4@HMP. Not sure what others think?

Sounds good - and actually fits in very well because I was considering doing next weeks long run midweek as well because of work. Thanks

Zebra3

Sorry if it's been asked earlier in the thread, but don't wanna go back through nearly 300 pages.

What would be the time difference (roughly) between running Dublin (done in 3:40) and one of Europe's flatter marathon courses like Berlin, Paris, or Rotterdam assuming similar training, conditions, etc.?

Krusty_Clown

Zebra3 wrote: »

Sorry if it's been asked earlier in the thread, but don't wanna go back through nearly 300 pages.

What would be the time difference (roughly) between running Dublin (done in 3:40) and one of Europe's flatter marathon courses like Berlin, Paris, or Rotterdam assuming similar training, conditions, etc.?

2 minutes and 43 seconds (give or take 2 seconds).

TFBubendorfer

Zebra3 wrote: »

Sorry if it's been asked earlier in the thread, but don't wanna go back through nearly 300 pages.

What would be the time difference (roughly) between running Dublin (done in 3:40) and one of Europe's flatter marathon courses like Berlin, Paris, or Rotterdam assuming similar training, conditions, etc.?

From http://sharmanian.blogspot.ie/2013/12/international-road-marathon-comparison.html:

Dublin Marathon, Ireland (October) - Not a very scenic course, with wind and some small inclines to make it slower. But it gives an excuse to drink Guinness where it comes from and hang out with the Irish. ADD 3 MINUTES

Seannew1

Spirogyra wrote: »

Tell us more about your 'speed work'? that's not a bad 5k time and I'm sure that better will follow, gradually. Interval and Tempo work plus more races should help Your lactic acid threshold willl gradually improve and with better weather hopefully on the way, that will help too

I think the great thing about 5 and 10k's is that they can be run nearly every week if one want's to and recovery time is quick ,usually

I've been consistently doing intervals one evening; usually 400 metres x 10 and then a session involving slow fast running. Like I said, very hard to tell where I'm at. Will hopefully creep into sub 23 with local road race I'm doing.

Murph_D

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

From http://sharmanian.blogspot.ie/2013/12/international-road-marathon-comparison.html:

Dublin Marathon, Ireland (October) - Not a very scenic course, with wind and some small inclines to make it slower. But it gives an excuse to drink Guinness where it comes from and hang out with the Irish. ADD 3 MINUTES

Not particularly accurate at the improver@3:40 level (I ran DCM 2013 and Berlin 2014 10 mins apart, 3:46 and 3:36 respectively), but then again that was during the 'rapid improvement' phase, and we don't know about the OP's status in that regard. A bit unfair of an assesment generally though - what about the legendary support? Guinness wha?

Colonialboy

Seannew1 wrote: »

Spirogyra wrote: »

Tell us more about your 'speed work'? that's not a bad 5k time and I'm sure that better will follow, gradually. Interval and Tempo work plus more races should help Your lactic acid threshold willl gradually improve and with better weather hopefully on the way, that will help too

I think the great thing about 5 and 10k's is that they can be run nearly every week if one want's to and recovery time is quick ,usually

I've been consistently doing intervals one evening; usually 400 metres x 10 and then a session involving slow fast running. Like I said, very hard to tell where I'm at. Will hopefully creep into sub 23 with local road race I'm doing.

If you are concerend you didnt PB for the 5k, I think there are some other questions you need to ask yourself . 
Had you specifically targetted that race for a PB , or did you just turn up and expect to run a PB because you have trained alot recently. 
What was your preparation like for that race, did you get their early, did you do a good warmup, did you start at the front, did you feel good on that day ? How was your form? Did you train heavy the day before or just freshen up the legs.  

It sounds like you have done the training, now you need to focus on one day and make that a PB day. 
That works for me .
If you prepare well in the 24 hours and in the 2-3 hours before an event, even a parkrun you may even find you run a PB and find it actually felt more comfortable. 

Enjoy the days you run and enjoy the days you PB equally.

adrian522

Colonialboy wrote: »

If you are concerend you didnt PB for the 5k, I think there are some other questions you need to ask yourself . 
Had you specifically targetted that race for a PB , or did you just turn up and expect to run a PB because you have trained alot recently. 
What was your preparation like for that race, did you get their early, did you do a good warmup, did you start at the front, did you feel good on that day ? How was your form? Did you train heavy the day before or just freshen up the legs.  

It sounds like you have done the training, now you need to focus on one day and make that a PB day. 
That works for me .
If you prepare well in the 24 hours and in the 2-3 hours before an event, even a parkrun you may even find you run a PB and find it actually felt more comfortable. 

Enjoy the days you run and enjoy the days you PB equally.

Just on the bit in bold, I don't think everyone targeting a PB should be lining up at the front. If you are aiming for a 23 minute run there is no point whatsoever trying to get to the front.

Colonialboy

adrian522 wrote: »

Colonialboy wrote: »

If you are concerend you didnt PB for the 5k, I think there are some other questions you need to ask yourself . 
Had you specifically targetted that race for a PB , or did you just turn up and expect to run a PB because you have trained alot recently. 
What was your preparation like for that race, did you get their early, did you do a good warmup, did you start at the front, did you feel good on that day ? How was your form? Did you train heavy the day before or just freshen up the legs.  

It sounds like you have done the training, now you need to focus on one day and make that a PB day. 
That works for me .
If you prepare well in the 24 hours and in the 2-3 hours before an event, even a parkrun you may even find you run a PB and find it actually felt more comfortable. 

Enjoy the days you run and enjoy the days you PB equally.

Just on the bit in bold, I don't think everyone targeting a PB should be lining up at the front. If you are aiming for a 23 minute run there is no point whatsoever trying to get to the front.

Why not ?
On a parkrun, why shouldnt someone targetting a PB under 23 go to the front. They have as much right to be there as anyone else. 
And the elites should actually be encouraging this, they should be happy to share space on the front line with someone else who wants to see what they can achieve on that day. 

Athletes so precious.

adrian522

What is the advantage of being at the front if you are just gong to be overtaken by a load of runners right from the start, talk about soul destroying. Starting behind people that are faster than you is not going to impact your race whatsoever.

It's not about being precious its about starting in the correct position.

IvoryTower

if it's a race and there's 500+ people behind you, for safety reasons alone you really shouldn't be standing at the front

RacoonQueen

Colonialboy wrote: »

Why not ?
On a parkrun, why shouldnt someone targetting a PB under 23 go to the front. They have as much right to be there as anyone else. 
And the elites should actually be encouraging this, they should be happy to share space on the front line with someone else who wants to see what they can achieve on that day. 

Athletes so precious.

Because they are getting in the way of people targeting faster pbs - it's hilarious the people that do this would be complaining if a huge group of slower people started in front of them. If everyone started in their correct positions there would be no start line congestion and everyone would be over the start line much quicker. The ducking and diving of faster people to get around slower runners slows things down further.

Colonialboy

Okay so it seems in a parkrun , the PB of RACOONQUEEN, IVORYTOWER, ADRIAN522 are more important than the PB of the rest of us.
No wonder athletics in ireland has issues if this is the sort of attitude thats encouraged in a parkrun. 
Thankfully I run with a different class of runners, a different class both in terms of PBs and their attitude. A few of them have 5K PBs under 15 mins and they generally spend the whole parkrun telling all the slouchers to keep going, they know most people by name and encourage them as the fly by, all you hear for the 5k is those top class runners telling Mary,joe and pat to push on your doing great, they will tell slower runners to tuck in behind them for a stretch, they also as they run tell slower runners how to adjust their stride and breathing ... you see different class of runner.
Just in from a 10k trail run, Im not going to let you dudes kill my buzz.
Run free slouchers, line up at the front in your local parkrun.
I salute your PB ...

adrian522

Colonialboy wrote: »

Okay so it seems in a parkrun , the PB of RACOONQUEEN, IVORYTOWER, ADRIAN522 are more important than the PB of the rest of us.
No wonder athletics in ireland has issues if this is the sort of attitude thats encouraged in a parkrun. 
Thankfully I run with a different class of runners, a different class both in terms of PBs and their attitude. A few of them have 5K PBs under 15 mins and they generally spend the whole parkrun telling all the slouchers to keep going, they know most people by name and encourage them as the fly by, all you hear for the 5k is those top class runners telling Mary,joe and pat to push on your doing great, they will tell slower runners to tuck in behind them for a stretch, they also as they run tell slower runners how to adjust their stride and breathing ... you see different class of runner.
Just in from a 10k trail run, Im not going to let you dudes kill my buzz.
Run free slouchers, line up at the front in your local parkrun.
I salute your PB ...

My PB is irrelevant. I've never run faster than 20 mins and never been at the front of a race start.

It's not about who's PB is most important, its about making the start comfortable for everyone.

How is starting behind faster runners going to impact anyone's chances at a PB?

robinph

It's not just about PB for those who are lining up at the front, they may well not be going for a PB despite finishing 5 minutes ahead of someone else who is. It's about respect for other people behind you and safety as well. A runner starting out of position on the start line in a crowded and or narrow parkrun is going to have a very unpleasant start as other runners try and get past them. It's not even that those other runners are going to be barging them out of the way, they just won't know they are there and someone running several minutes per mile slower suddenly appearing in your path is going to be tricky to avoid if you are also in the middle of a crowded pack of runners at the start. Add in a narrowing path, or a bend, or a puddle that people also try and avoid and you will very easily end up with a pile up.

Start in the appropriate position for your speed, run with other people doing a similar speed. Everyone will then get to have a safer and more pleasant parkrun.

HigginsJ

I would have thought this is common sense? I try to judge the size of the field and position myself roughly where I think I should be time wise. If I start a bit too far back so be it, but I'd never even consider the first few rows, last thing I would want is to inconvenience someone else or cause injury, which could easily happen with someone at 5 minute mile pace catching someone on 7 minute mile pace on a narrow park run.

Calling it "precious" that people believe you should line up where your talent dictates is childish.

robinph

HigginsJ wrote: »

I try to judge the size of the field and position myself roughly where I think I should be time wise.

On local races I'd recognise the people normally finishing around me so we would tend to start at about the same position in the different events. That position would change though depending on if it is a parkrun/ a small 10km/ the big local 10km or half marathon.

If heading off to an event I've not done before though then I'll check previous results to see how many people finish in what times, and can also get a guesstimate of the difficulty of the course as well, so I can then position myself appropriately at the start amongst that standard which can vary wildly from one 10km to the next.

Itziger

I had a kinda nasty experience recently at the start of a 10k race. I spot a good friend in the pen and I went to say hello to him before taking up my own position. It's a popular race, about 3,000 starters. So, I chat a little with this fella and then start to move up. Jaysus, this woman tried to block my way with so much determination that in squeezing past her, I stumbled forward and bumped into a couple of people who looked daggers at me. Now, I had been saying, excuse me as I passed people and I understand that people shoving past can be a bit annoying in the pen but to be fair, it should have been clear who needed to be nearer the start. Does that make me sound precious? I dunno. What I do know is that after about 500 metres there were roughly 200/250 people ahead of me. At the end there were 55 or 60 (Can't remember).

In every race I've ever done there are people near the front who really should not be there. Yes, it is common sense, but unfortunately some people don't have too much of that. And it's not just slow beginners. I see a fella in all the 10k races I do (Two a year ) who always starts on the first row. He always finishes a good bit behind me. Jeez, I'd never go up to the front row with 30 minute 10k runners. That's just wrong.

ariana`

I'd be mortified to start on the front row at a park run or race even if i was going for a PB, my 5k PB pace could be up to 8 mins slower than another person's leisurely pace. But it's good to be able guesstimate where to start. I started a park run recently behind a group of walkers so i got that well wrong and ended up taking the heels off one of them and nearly doing a face plant

Slow_Runner

Itziger wrote: »

I had a kinda nasty experience recently at the start of a 10k race. I spot a good friend in the pen and I went to say hello to him before taking up my own position. It's a popular race, about 3,000 starters. So, I chat a little with this fella and then start to move up. Jaysus, this woman tried to block my way with so much determination that in squeezing past her, I stumbled forward and bumped into a couple of people who looked daggers at me. Now, I had been saying, excuse me as I passed people and I understand that people shoving past can be a bit annoying in the pen but to be fair, it should have been clear who needed to be nearer the start. Does that make me sound precious? I dunno. What I do know is that after about 500 metres there were roughly 200/250 people ahead of me. At the end there were 55 or 60 (Can't remember).

In every race I've ever done there are people near the front who really should not be there. Yes, it is common sense, but unfortunately some people don't have too much of that. And it's not just slow beginners. I see a fella in all the 10k races I do (Two a year ) who always starts on the first row. He always finishes a good bit behind me. Jeez, I'd never go up to the front row with 30 minute 10k runners. That's just wrong.

Unfortunately the start pens suffer from a self fulfilling prophecy - a lot of people don't trust others to be in the correct position so move up towards the front past faster runners - this is especially true where the race will have more inexperienced runners (not meant as derogatory - less race experience means not being aware of some of the etiquettes around a race) . Only way around this is to put up markers at the start line with estimated finish times for races without pacers, won't stop the problem but can alleviate it.
Usually if there are pacers I will line up based on their position - so if going for a 1:42 half line up halfway between 1:40 and 1:45 pacers. For smaller races try to see judge people of my pace however have been caught out and been stuck behind traffic.

Trimm Trabb

Running my 3rd half marathon at the end of April and am considering running a full marathon this year.

Looking for peoples opinions on whether I should sign up to Dublin in October and train towards that for 6 months or is there a good summer marathon in Ireland I should be looking at? Is there any race with a reputation for being flat or a PB course?

Did my first half in 1:51 last July, and the second in 1:42 in November and hoping to do next months one slightly quicker again. When I do the full marathon I'd like to do it in a 'good' time or whatever a 1:40 half should translate to for a full marathon.

I'm training well at the moment and feeling good, but at the same time I find anything around the 15k mark a very challenging run, so wondering should I aim for something sooner while I'm fit and in a routine or give myself more time to build towards the longer distance?

runnerholic

My advice fwiw would be to wait for the DCM. Build up a base for a couple of months and then start a marathon training programme.

hot buttered scones

Trimm Trabb wrote: »

Running my 3rd half marathon at the end of April and am considering running a full marathon this year.

Looking for peoples opinions on whether I should sign up to Dublin in October and train towards that for 6 months or is there a good summer marathon in Ireland I should be looking at? Is there any race with a reputation for being flat or a PB course?

Did my first half in 1:51 last July, and the second in 1:42 in November and hoping to do next months one slightly quicker again. When I do the full marathon I'd like to do it in a 'good' time or whatever a 1:40 half should translate to for a full marathon.

I'm training well at the moment and feeling good, but at the same time I find anything around the 15k mark a very challenging run, so wondering should I aim for something sooner while I'm fit and in a routine or give myself more time to build towards the longer distance?

I'd agree with runnerholic. You're running a half at the end of April, and if you do an 18 week programme for DCM you'll start training for that at the end of June. So you'll have a couple of weeks to recover from the half and 6 weeks of base building to bring you nicely up to marathon training. There'll probably be a DCM Novices thread with a training programme - I'd recommend joining in with that. Have a look over the 2016 and 2015 threads - you'll find links to the training plan used and can make your mind up then. McMillan gives a 3:30 marathon time for a 1:40 half - but I'd be a bit more cautious for your first marathon. You'll get a fair idea of what to aim for when you get stuck into training.