Random Running Questions

HigginsJ

gypsylee wrote: »

I am a slow runner so I hope to finish in under 2.30. Not going to over stretch myself, will be happy to finish it.

And so you should be, looking at 2:30 then training around 8 minutes per km would be perfect as you would be looking around 7:07 minute per KM average to complete the half in 2:30.

gypsylee

HigginsJ wrote: »

And so you should be, looking at 2:30 then training around 8 minutes per km would be perfect as you would be looking around 7:07 minute per KM average to complete the half in 2:30.

Thanks for the reply. I will run the Sunday runs at around 8 mins per km over the next few weeks.

SmallTeapot

Have a bit of a random question, and not sure if many have encountered this, but I'll throw it out there anyway :pac:

I completed a race a week ago and developed a bruised toenail (read:completely black) on one foot. It was sore the first 2-3 days but feels fine now.

I haven't treated it with anything, but was thinking of doing a Epsom salt soak tomorrow. Would anyone have any recommendations on aftercare for this type of issue? (I certainly don't want to develop any fungal infections, etc :eek: )

Also, would anyone have any advice as to how soon I can go back training... I took this past week off just to be on the safe side

Thanks

Butterbeans

SmallTeapot wrote: »

Have a bit of a random question, and not sure if many have encountered this, but I'll throw it out there anyway :pac:

I completed a race a week ago and developed a bruised toenail (read:completely black) on one foot. It was sore the first 2-3 days but feels fine now.

I haven't treated it with anything, but was thinking of doing a Epsom salt soak tomorrow. Would anyone have any recommendations on aftercare for this type of issue? (I certainly don't want to develop any fungal infections, etc :eek: )

Also, would anyone have any advice as to how soon I can go back training... I took this past week off just to be on the safe side

Thanks

Not too random at all, a fairly common running ailment. It's happened to me a couple of times, the last time a little over a year ago (result of new runners that were a fraction too small - only happened on one foot). The black nail has just grown out now.

If the pain is gone, you're good to go back running, it is just bruising (but the nail remains stained). Possibility of the nail coming off but never happened to me.

Never anything wrong with an Epsom bath but don't think it'll do anything for your nail.

Gavlor

SmallTeapot wrote: »

Have a bit of a random question, and not sure if many have encountered this, but I'll throw it out there anyway :pac:

I completed a race a week ago and developed a bruised toenail (read:completely black) on one foot. It was sore the first 2-3 days but feels fine now.

I haven't treated it with anything, but was thinking of doing a Epsom salt soak tomorrow. Would anyone have any recommendations on aftercare for this type of issue? (I certainly don't want to develop any fungal infections, etc :eek: )

Also, would anyone have any advice as to how soon I can go back training... I took this past week off just to be on the safe side

Thanks

Unfortunately she's decided to end the relationship. Her bags are packed and she's ready to leave. There's not much you can do about that, I'm sure she's warned you that "it's either running or me" and you just didn't listen.

Don't worry though, you'll have no bother replacing her with a smaller more deformed and mentally unstable one.

All the best, our thoughts and prayers are with you.

http://m.wikihow.com/Cope-With-Separation

Swashbuckler

I have a few not so random questions but figured this might be the best thread to put them. I'm currently targeting my first sub 40 10k. Have a few 10k races planned over the coming months. Previous 10k PB is 40:35 in Adare recently (flat). So my questions are;

1. My current training involves 5-6 days running a week. A mix of 5k tempo (19:40 total time), 10 mile run (71mins total time), interval 400m x 12 reps with 90s rest between (83s per 400m split), 10k run (sub 41min), 1 x 2mile @ 4min per 1k pace + 4 x 1mile @ 4min per 1k pace. Is this a decent plan or am I overdoing it?

2. Is it unfair to expect gains in 10k total time during training. Just did a pretty fast 10k and felt like I was flat out and total time was still 40:35. Should I wait until race day before trying to hit the faster time (sub 40)? I guess I expected to see some sort of gain.

3. I ran a PB 5k of 19:35 recently. That was flat out. I couldn't have maintained it for much longer. The general rule is double your 5k time and add a minute for 10k. Does this mean I'm still a fair bit off? And the fact that I was flat out at that pace, should I be feeling the pace a bit less as I get closer to my sub 40 10k target?

Sorry for the essay. I'm just unsure what kind of gains I should be seeing so I'm looking to some more experienced runners to tell me if I'm on track or not. Any advice on the training plan is also welcome.

RayCun

Stop racing your training.

A tempo run should be more than a second per km slower than a 5k race. Your weekly 10 mile and 10k runs should be much slower than than the equivalent races.

BeepBeep67

Swashbuckler wrote: »

1. My current training involves 5-6 days running a week. A mix of 5k tempo (19:40 total time), 10 mile run (71mins total time), interval 400m x 12 reps with 90s rest between (83s per 400m split), 10k run (sub 41min), 1 x 2mile @ 4min per 1k pace + 4 x 1mile @ 4min per 1k pace. Is this a decent plan or am I overdoing it?

If this is a typical week, then you are effectively just racing sessions.
It's like going on a shopping spree with your credit card and no savings to back it up - it needs to be paid back at some stage.

Your 5k run isn't tempo, it's faster than your 10k pace. Tempo for a 40min 10k would be more in the region of 4:15 - 4:20 pace.

You are running a 10k to almost target time every week, so your other sessions will suffer and ultimately you will not optimize your race performance.

If you are running 5-6 times per week, then 2 sessions are plenty.
The sessions I would focus on are:

1. LT/tempo session, something like 3 x 8-10mins (4:15-4:20 per k) with a 2 min recovery

2. 10k paced session, check out the McMillian thread for an example of building up a session over 8 weeks, on the alternate weeks you could do something like 10 x 600 @ 10k pace, 8 x 800 @ 10k pace, 6 x 1000 @ 10k pace with shortish recoveries (1 min to 1:30 as the distance increases)

3. Keep your 10M run but slow it down and run over some hills if you have the option (7:45 - 8:00min pace)

Your other 2-3 days should be easy / recovery runs 30mins - 1hr

Singer

Swashbuckler wrote: »

1. My current training involves 5-6 days running a week. A mix of 5k tempo (19:40 total time), 10 mile run (71mins total time), interval 400m x 12 reps with 90s rest between (83s per 400m split), 10k run (sub 41min), 1 x 2mile @ 4min per 1k pace + 4 x 1mile @ 4min per 1k pace. Is this a decent plan or am I overdoing it?

This looks exhausting! There's no easy running in there, which is maybe why endurance could be a problem. I'd cut back to two sessions a week, a longer slower run (over 8:00/mile or so) and fill in the rest with easy miles. A 5k tempo 5 seconds slower than your 5k PB seems pretty aggressive too.

http://www.runnersworld.com/running-tips/easy-does-it

Swashbuckler

Thanks for the replies folks. Much appreciated.

I find it hard to do "down sessions". If I'm not pushing myself I feel like I'm wasting a run which I guess is naive.

So taking all the advice into consideration - where should I see the gains i.e. how do I know if I'm improving? Is it that the sessions start to become easier? I guess ultimately what I'm asking is how do I know if I'm on target for sub 40?

I did my first parkrun last weekend and loved it. Is it ok to keep that in and go flat out or should I be slowing it down?

RayCun

Swashbuckler wrote: »

So taking all the advice into consideration - where should I see the gains i.e. how do I know if I'm improving? Is it that the sessions start to become easier? I guess ultimately what I'm asking is how do I know if I'm on target for sub 40?

I did my first parkrun last weekend and loved it. Is it ok to keep that in and go flat out or should I be slowing it down?

If you race fairly regularly, say once a month, maybe a bit more, that's where you'll see the improvements. BeepBeep compared your training to credit card spending - what you should be doing is depositing your training in a jar regularly, then every now and again cracking it open and seeing what you have.

Parkruns are great, but you shouldn't be going week after week and racing every one.

davedanon

Swashbuckler. Guy in our club is very much like you. Very fast in training, never ran slowly, never did recovery-paced runs. He couldn't understand how he was 'running slower in order to run faster', in his own words. For a time he ran every run at 7.10 pace, and faster again on interval sessions. He would go out blazingly fast and be wilting towards the end of sessions. Then he got beaten in a race by me, which he didn't think was possible. I beat him again twice more, and all three times he went off quick only to be reeled in. He said he had learned his lesson, and started doing slower runs. Then we had a session involving 300s on the track, and TRR did full laps to our 300s, to ensure everyone got a full recovery. TRR is a 2:35 marathoner. This chap got a notion on the first rep, and tore off and up onto TRR's shoulder for the 300. Then he did it again. And again. On the fourth one he disappeared, and when we finished he was at the start line, clutching his hamstring. He's given himself a little tear. Weeks before he'll be back.

Swashbuckler

Cheers for all the replies and advice. For me it's the difficulty of taking an "off day". Feels like im wasting a run. So taking the advice on board my plan now is three sessions a week with two easy 10k runs at approx 45 or 46min total time. The three sessions will be one tempo run of 3x10min at 4:15 k pace with 2min recovery between. One 10 miler at 7:45 per mile pace. And I'll alternate weekly between interval 200 or 400m or 800m at 3:45 k pace and the mcmillan 6x1m etc at 4min per km pace .

davedanon

Swashbuckler wrote: »

is three sessions a week with two easy 10k runs at approx 45 or 46min total time.

Unless I'm misunderstanding you, this is virtually identical to the chap I mentioned's failed approach. 2 10k runs at 7.15 min per mile?

pconn062

Swashbuckler wrote: »

Cheers for all the replies and advice. For me it's the difficulty of taking an "off day". Feels like im wasting a run. So taking the advice on board my plan now is three sessions a week with two easy 10k runs at approx 45 or 46min total time. The three sessions will be one tempo run of 3x10min at 4:15 k pace with 2min recovery between. One 10 miler at 7:45 per mile pace. And I'll alternate weekly between interval 200 or 400m or 800m at 3:45 k pace and the mcmillan 6x1m etc at 4min per km pace .

You need to get paces out of your head on easy days. Don't set out to do 10 miles at 7.45 pace. Just go out on your easy days and run easy. What's easy? It depends on the day, some days it might be 7.45 pace, other days it will be 8.15 pace. Doesn't matter, just keep it comfortable and easy. Running your 10k easy runs in 45/46 minutes is just way too fast for a guy who hasn't broken 40 mins for 10k. I train with a group of guys who would all run 34-36 minutes for 10k in a race, and if we were doing an easy 10k run it would be at 7.40-8 minutes mile pace so around 47-50 mins for 10k. Plus Beepbeep said 4.15-20 pace for the tempo, not 4.15. So do the first 8-10 min block at 4.20 or even 4.25 and if you feel good then pick it up for the last rep.

And a day off isn't a waste of a run, it's a chance for your body to recover from the training stress. Stress-recover-adapt. If you don't recover your body can't adapt to new and higher training loads. I guarantee if you keep doing your training runs too hard and too many sessions you will still be struggling to break 40 minutes this time next year.

adrian522

Have you had a look at mcmillan running calculator for training paces?

If you put in your current/recent race time of 40:35 and a target of 39:55 for example it will give you a suggested pace range for the different types of run.

e.g.

Easy Runs 4:33 - 5:11
Long Runs 4:36 -5:22
Recovery Jogs 5:14 - 5:40
Tempo Intervals 4:00 - 4:09
Tempo Run 4:03 - 4:13

I think that would be a good starting point, assuming that your 40:35 is a recent enough time. There are plenty of plans online you can take sessions from, but 2 sessions per week and the rest easy running with a long run at the weekend is a pretty good template.

The idea being that you are properly recovered for your sessions and can get the most out of them.

hot buttered scones

Just to clarify if by "off day" you mean an easy paced run or a recovery run, you need to stop thinking that these runs are a waste. Easy paced/(easy effort really) are to develop your aerobic system and also your endurance are are probably the most important runs you can do (in my opinion). As others have said, running these too fast will result in you not being able to do your sessions properly. Recovery runs are very easy paced runs, but they get the blood flowing to the muscles which helps to repair the damage done by a hard session and also keeps you loose. Don't be too hung up on distance for these initially - go for an hours easy runs at the slower end of the pace range for example. In short what everybody is trying to say is slow down on your easy days, take your recovery days and drop a session. Do that and you'll see improvements. Don't do it and you will end up injured. Run by effort - a heart rate monitor is a useful tool here and there's plenty of articles online which will tell you what your HR range should be for a particular run.

Swashbuckler

Thanks again for all of the advice. So just to address a few questions and comments;

@davedanon I guess I was thinking approx 7:30 per mile pace for the easy 10k runs. By people's comments this seems agressive. To be honest a 10k at 7:30 is barely even an effort for me. I find it very easy.

@pconn062 I thought the 10 mile needed to be some bit difficult. A 7:45 10 mile for me feels easy.
I'll take on board everyone's advice on the easy runs and keep them easy. If that means 8 min mile pace for 10k recovery runs then that's what I'll do. In terms of the tempo I did a tempo today at 4:15 k pace for the 3 x 10mins and felt very comfortable.

@adrian522 thanks for the paces. I didn't realise there was a calculator. There's a pretty wide range on those. If the faster of the range feels comfortable is it OK to go with that? I'll have a read online. Thanks for the info.

@hot buttered scones . By off day I mean easy run yeah. I need to get out of the mentality of running hard all the time.

Thanks again to everyone for the advice. Main takeaway is I'll slow down the 10k recovery runs and keep the ten miler but slow down. Tempo run at 4:15 k pace felt good today as opposed to my 5k at 19:40.

adrian522

Swashbuckler wrote: »

@adrian522 thanks for the paces. I didn't realise there was a calculator. There's a pretty wide range on those. If the faster of the range feels comfortable is it OK to go with that? I'll have a read online. Thanks for the info.

I guess so, but the upper range aren't targets and for easy pace and recovery runs the pace shouldn't matter at all, as long as you are not going too fast. If you have a tough session the day before you will find yourself going slower anyway.

If you wear a HR monitor, another indication would be to keep your heart rate below 70 or 75% of your max HR, or just run at a pace where you could hold a conversation without difficulty. It should feel really slow.

Itziger

SwashBuckler, have you seen the new Half Marathon Women's record? It's 1.04.52. Have you seen her training? Someone put up a link to it, and an interview with her husband in a thread here.

Some of her easy runs are 10k in 50 mins. Ok, she does a lot of mileage and on that day that would be one of 2 (maybe even 3) sessions.

My question to you is, Could you knock out a 64/65 minute Half do ya reckon?

I'll add my name to the list: You're racing training and it is not a good idea. You might see some short term gains but long term.................

Swashbuckler

Let there be no misunderstanding. I'm here for advice from more experienced runners. I'm not one of those bravado guys. I've never ran a program before and I'm willing to take any advice on board.

davedanon

Swashbuckler wrote: »

To be honest a 10k at 7:30 is barely even an effort for me. I find it very easy.

Well, you know what? Depending on the day of the week, it's either A) no bother to me either (pb 39.52), or absolutely out of the question.

In the case of A) I might be doing a 6 mile tempo run, in which circumstance I would expect to average 6.45 per mile, give or take.

Whereas with it'll be the day after, when I'm feeling the effects of the tempo, and be quite happy to trundle around for an hour at possibly 9 min + pace, because I know that the following day I have another tough session which I'll need to be ready for.

Your sentence above reeks of ego: and ego has, or should have, very little place in training.

davedanon

Edit: I need to stress, I'm not trying to cause offence here. These are just my immediate impressions. I've been through all that stuff that you're doing now. Nearly all of us have. We're not superhuman. No-one can rip it up every day of the week. No-one.

Swashbuckler

davedanon wrote:

Your sentence above reeks of ego: and ego has, or should have, very little place in training.

Its genuinely 100% not the case. I'm just trying to get a handle on how easy the easy/recovery runs should be. This is new to me and there's a reason I'm asking experienced runners for advice. I've been running flat out like an eejit for a while now. Please don't assume a tone to my post.

davedanon

Swashbuckler wrote: »

Please don't assume a tone to my post.

I'd like to say I didn't, but, I did really. Sorry. I tend to the overly forthright approach unfortunately.

Don't let it put you off. I mean well, and even if I do put you off, there are others vastly more qualified who are more than willing to give good advice.

And for what it's worth, it sounds like you only need to find the right approach to smash that 40 min barrier.

Swashbuckler

Ah no worries. Like I said, all advice is welcome. I didn't come on here to blow my trumpet about how much I was training. I just wasn't seeing gains and couldn't understand why.

Still trying to piece it all together and come up with a solid plan but this thread has definitely helped.

I did a much more sensible run than usual today which is a start.

Itziger

Swashbuckler wrote: »

Ah no worries. Like I said, all advice is welcome. I didn't come on here to blow my trumpet about how much I was training. I just wasn't seeing gains and couldn't understand why.

Still trying to piece it all together and come up with a solid plan but this thread has definitely helped.

I did a much more sensible run than usual today which is a start.

Well if you're new to training and are willing to adapt and learn - not saying that anyone on here is super-qualified to teach - then you'll definitely do well. You seem to have a good base but read logs and a few threads and you'll pick up ideas. There is no hard and fast rule, except maybe not running hard and fast every day in training! Some people for example keep all their Long Runs to a very easy pace while others think this is not the way to prepare for a race and will spice up the Long Runs with race pace stuff. Sure we're all learning.

RayCun

Swashbuckler wrote: »

Ah no worries. Like I said, all advice is welcome. I didn't come on here to blow my trumpet about how much I was training. I just wasn't seeing gains and couldn't understand why.

The best advice I can give you is to join a club. You'll run regularly with people of the same level and there'll be more experienced runners around to get tips from.

Swashbuckler

RayCun wrote:

The best advice I can give you is to join a club. You'll run regularly with people of the same level and there'll be more experienced runners around to get tips from.

I had considered that. I do most of my running during the day on my lunch break apart from the long run which is an evening run. The club times wouldn't really suit me but yeah it's definitely something I'd like to do under different circumstances.

RayCun

Swashbuckler wrote: »

I had considered that. I do most of my running during the day on my lunch break apart from the long run which is an evening run. The club times wouldn't really suit me but yeah it's definitely something I'd like to do under different circumstances.

are you in Dublin city? I know a few people who run regularly at lunchtime