Random Running Questions

jameshayes

boydkev wrote: »

The hill is approx 1km and has a 82m Rise and i think it is about 7% as average.
I suppose the steeper the hill the harder the workout.

This is the hill I do my hillsprints on - https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.3442052,-6.2723007,3a,75y,176.71h,96.58t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s8ZxaDgAeemkuFZh_BuFHUQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

12 seconds sprint will get you to near those red warning signs near the top of the hill

Hannibal_Smith

With running plans, is there a pattern to the sessions?

For a lot of running plans I've looked at there'll be a cushion of an easy run either side of a session run and another easy run and a long run.

The Hal Higdon plans for example is interchanged with one week of intervals and another week of tempo running. As the plan proceeds there seems to be a second session of a faster weekend run thrown in too.

However, a friend sent me a link that he uses which is something like the best 5k workouts and details a lot of different sessions like progression runs, alternates etc. So that got me wondering:-

1. Is it too messy to chuck a variety of sessions into one plan?

2. Is it just a matter of what each plan developer believes to be a good session or the best approach as to what goes into a plan?

3. Can a person not Google 'best 5 k workouts' for example, chuck as many of the sessions as they can into an 8 week or so plan, cushion it with easy runs, a long run at the weekend. Hey presto! Ones own running plan?

4. How do you know which sessions would best suit you?

5. Is it important to pattern the sessions some how, ie say with an alternate run in week two, following up with the same work out in week 6?

6. Or could you plough through a rake of sessions in the one plan?

Not asking for myself, I'm happy following the Higdon 'wax on wax off' approach for now. I was just wondering.
And apologies in advance for any terminology I may not have got completely right. .

Krusty_Clown

I'll have a go... Warning - may contain cake.

1. Is it too messy to chuck a variety of sessions into one plan?

Without structure, there's little point. It would be like throwing a random selection of ingredients from your cupboard into a mixing bowl, and hoping you'll end up with a cake. You might end up with something that won't kill you, but it may not fulfill the brief of being a cake. The point of most training plans is to bring you in a progressive fashion, to a point where you are most likely to achieve your goal. It is not a collection of standalone sessions. For example if you google 'best 5k plan' (what kind of blogger/publisher is going to describe their 5k plan as 'not the best 5k plan?!), you'll see something like:
Week1: 4 x 400m
Week2: 5 x 400m
Week3: 6 x 400m
Typically, it won't be as simple as that though. There may be some 800m sessions introduced, or different types of training session, aimed at stimulating different aspects of improvement. The ultimate training session to prepare for a 5k race would be: 'run 5k at 5k pace', but this is not really feasible from a training perspective, and so we have different types of stimulus that help us to get as ready as possible without actually doing the effort needed for race-day.

Worth remembering, not all recipes writers are good, and different people like different types of cakes (enough of the cooking analogies?).

2. Is it just a matter of what each plan developer believes to be a good session or the best approach as to what goes into a plan?

There isn't much original thought when it comes to plans - particularly 5k plans published on the internet. If there were a great single secret recipe (sorry!) for 5k success, it wouldn't be a secret for very long. Most of these are just borrowed from other plans and a few elements are tweaked to make them seem original. Anyone who is training for a 5k, who has not followed structure training before will benefit from following one of these plans, but it's more likely the structured training than the specific plan that is providing the benefit. If they'd followed another 'best 5k plan' they'd likely seem similar benefits.

3. Can a person not Google 'best 5 k workouts' for example, chuck as many of the sessions as they can into an 8 week or so plan, cushion it with easy runs, a long run at the weekend. Hey presto! Ones own running plan?

Sure you can. And as mentioned above, you'll see benefits just from structure and completing sessions that target different goals (interval, fartlek, tempo, race pace, recovery, long run), but eventually you'll experience diminishing returns, and will need to focus on areas for improvement/weaknesses rather than just following generic plans.

4. How do you know which sessions would best suit you?

Do them! Observe the improvement! Unfortunately, you can't look at a page or submit yourself to tests and pre-determine how a particular set of stresses are going to impact performance. You need to be the guinea pig, do the training, and continue your experiment with a sample size of one.

5. Is it important to pattern the sessions some how, ie say with an alternate run in week two, following up with the same work out in week 6?

Yes, they should be structured. Largely speaking, sessions should follow some form of progression. There are some sessions (for example the Yasso 800s, where you might want to repeat the same sessions in order to observe differences in work effort (HR), or pace, etc., but generally speaking, most sessions should form part of a structured progression towards a goal.

6. Or could you plough through a rake of sessions in the one plan?

Not sure what the question is here. Absolutely you can follow the sessions in a singe plan, but it's important to interpret the training and effect. Generic plans are generic! They are not written with you in mind. I have followed many, many book/published plans in my short running 'career', and they all have one thing in common - they don't know anything about me. They don't know when I'll be tired, when I'll have a niggle, when I might be travelling for work, when I stay out late for a few drinks, when I'm at my freshest, or when I feel most tired. Training plans represent a starting point. You won't always have all of the ingredients you need in the cupboard. Sometimes you have to swap out maple for agave syrup (not sure where I'm going with that one...).

Not asking for myself, I'm happy following the Higdon 'wax on wax off' approach for now. I was just wondering.

Same rules apply to Higdon, P&D, Daniels, Noakes, Magness, Canova, Lydiard, the random author of 'the best 5k plan ever' and even the great Meno-plan. The authors don't know you or your body. They don't know your lives or your strengths. They might know a thing or two about running, but ultimately it comes down to personal experience. You need a starting point, and these plans offer a good introduction and an initial structure, but after that, it's over to you. These authors may not know you and I, but they may know a little bit more about training that I do, or than that friend of yours, so if they are setting out for the first time, perhaps suggest a plan that others have found some success from, but only as a starting point.

On a somewhat related note: good coaches tend to be successful, because they get to know you and get to know how you are reacting to training stimulus, and can adjust the course in ways that a published plan cannot. They can also provide a perspective with regard to your training that you may not be able to realize, because we can be somewhat blinkered in terms of our own training. Most people who don't come from a junior athletics background follow a fairly typical progression like this:
Eat too much cake
Decide to go Jogging
Do lots more jogging
Enter a race
Decide we want to do better
Structured training plan
Run a better race
Repeat for a while
Improvements diminish
Join a club
Train with like-minded people of a similar standard
Run better races
Want to improve more
Get coaching
Perform even better races
Get older
Race performances diminish
Eat cake

Bottom line, cut out the middle stuff. Eat cake.

hot buttered scones

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

I'll have a go... Warning - may contain cake.


Without structure, there's little point. It would be like throwing a random selection of ingredients from your cupboard into a mixing bowl, and hoping you'll end up with a cake. You might end up with something that won't kill you, but it may not fulfill the brief of being a cake. The point of most training plans is to bring you in a progressive fashion, to a point where you are most likely to achieve your goal. It is not a collection of standalone sessions. For example if you google 'best 5k plan' (what kind of blogger/publisher is going to describe their 5k plan as 'not the best 5k plan?!), you'll see something like:
Week1: 4 x 400m
Week2: 5 x 400m
Week3: 6 x 400m
Typically, it won't be as simple as that though. There may be some 800m sessions introduced, or different types of training session, aimed at stimulating different aspects of improvement. The ultimate training session to prepare for a 5k race would be: 'run 5k at 5k pace', but this is not really feasible from a training perspective, and so we have different types of stimulus that help us to get as ready as possible without actually doing the effort needed for race-day.

Worth remembering, not all recipes writers are good, and different people like different types of cakes (enough of the cooking analogies?).


There isn't much original thought when it comes to plans - particularly 5k plans published on the internet. If there were a great single secret recipe (sorry!) for 5k success, it wouldn't be a secret for very long. Most of these are just borrowed from other plans and a few elements are tweaked to make them seem original. Anyone who is training for a 5k, who has not followed structure training before will benefit from following one of these plans, but it's more likely the structured training than the specific plan that is providing the benefit. If they'd followed another 'best 5k plan' they'd likely seem similar benefits.


Sure you can. And as mentioned above, you'll see benefits just from structure and completing sessions that target different goals (interval, fartlek, tempo, race pace, recovery, long run), but eventually you'll experience diminishing returns, and will need to focus on areas for improvement/weaknesses rather than just following generic plans.


Do them! Observe the improvement! Unfortunately, you can't look at a page or submit yourself to tests and pre-determine how a particular set of stresses are going to impact performance. You need to be the guinea pig, do the training, and continue your experiment with a sample size of one.


Yes, they should be structured. Largely speaking, sessions should follow some form of progression. There are some sessions (for example the Yasso 800s, where you might want to repeat the same sessions in order to observe differences in work effort (HR), or pace, etc., but generally speaking, most sessions should form part of a structured progression towards a goal.


Not sure what the question is here. Absolutely you can follow the sessions in a singe plan, but it's important to interpret the training and effect. Generic plans are generic! They are not written with you in mind. I have followed many, many book/published plans in my short running 'career', and they all have one thing in common - they don't know anything about me. They don't know when I'll be tired, when I'll have a niggle, when I might be travelling for work, when I stay out late for a few drinks, when I'm at my freshest, or when I feel most tired. Training plans represent a starting point. You won't always have all of the ingredients you need in the cupboard. Sometimes you have to swap out maple for agave syrup (not sure where I'm going with that one...).


Same rules apply to Higdon, P&D, Daniels, Noakes, Magness, Canova, Lydiard, the random author of 'the best 5k plan ever' and even the great Meno-plan. The authors don't know you or your body. They don't know your lives or your strengths. They might know a thing or two about running, but ultimately it comes down to personal experience. You need a starting point, and these plans offer a good introduction and an initial structure, but after that, it's over to you. These authors may not know you and I, but they may know a little bit more about training that I do, or than that friend of yours, so if they are setting out for the first time, perhaps suggest a plan that others have found some success from, but only as a starting point.

On a somewhat related note: good coaches tend to be successful, because they get to know you and get to know how you are reacting to training stimulus, and can adjust the course in ways that a published plan cannot. They can also provide a perspective with regard to your training that you may not be able to realize, because we can be somewhat blinkered in terms of our own training. Most people who don't come from a junior athletics background follow a fairly typical progression like this:
Eat too much cake
Decide to go Jogging
Do lots more jogging
Enter a race
Decide we want to do better
Structured training plan
Run a better race
Repeat for a while
Improvements diminish
Join a club
Train with like-minded people of a similar standard
Run better races
Want to improve more
Get coaching
Perform even better races
Get older
Race performances diminish
Eat cake

Bottom line, cut out the middle stuff. Eat cake.

This throws up a few questions for me. Most importantly though, when faced with the choice between custard slice and a chocolate eclair which would you go for? Especially if there's fresh cream in the custard slice. These things are important.

Krusty_Clown

hot buttered scones wrote: »

This throws up a few questions for me. Most importantly though, when faced with the choice between custard slice and a chocolate eclair which would you go for? Especially if there's fresh cream in the custard slice. These things are important.

I can only answer for myself, but it comes down to whether or not my mum made the chocolate eclair. If so, it's eclair all the way. It is 'the best chocolate eclair'.

jk23

How important is it to get a good start for a 5k to achieve a personal best?

hot buttered scones

jk23 wrote: »

How important is it to get a good start for a 5k to achieve a personal best?

The general advice given is to run at an even pace if possible for the entire race. If you go out too fast, you'll loose more time over the remainder of the race than you will have gained by running faster than race pace over the first mile/km. You're better off to run faster in the 2nd half/final 3rd of the race than at the start.

jk23

That's good advice, thank you, have a race Sunday so want to get my strategy in order

hot buttered scones wrote: »

The general advice given is to run at an even pace if possible for the entire race. If you go out too fast, you'll loose more time over the remainder of the race than you will have gained by running faster than race pace over the first mile/km. You're better off to run faster in the 2nd half/final 3rd of the race than at the start.

Swashbuckler

hot buttered scones wrote: »

This throws up a few questions for me. Most importantly though, when faced with the choice between custard slice and a chocolate eclair which would you go for? Especially if there's fresh cream in the custard slice. These things are important.

Surely hot buttered scones would be preferable to custard slice or chocolate eclair?

Wottle

jk23 wrote: »

How important is it to get a good start for a 5k to achieve a personal best?

http://www.runnersworld.com/race-training/go-out-fast-in-your-next-5k

Sample size isn't that big but I achieved my pb going out harder and trying to hang on 5:59, 6:23, 6:17, also only time I ever collapsed in a race msb 2009.
I was better trained then, tried it last week at a parkrun, result wasn't good but I don't think of parkrun as a proper race, so that may have played a part.

jk23

18/19 mark is quick, I would be around the 22/23 mark. Hit under the 21 once last year but i went trailing a fast club athlete and tried to stay with them, fell off the last half k.. it's an interesting tactic. I run the oranmore park run so may try it on that run

Wottle wrote: »

http://www.runnersworld.com/race-training/go-out-fast-in-your-next-5k

Sample size isn't that big but I achieved my pb going out harder and trying to hang on 5:59, 6:23, 6:17, also only time I ever collapsed in a race msb 2009.
I was better trained then, tried it last week at a parkrun, result wasn't good but I don't think of parkrun as a proper race, so that may have played a part.

ariana`

jk23 wrote: »

How important is it to get a good start for a 5k to achieve a personal best?

Maybe use Park run to try different approaches to pacing and what works for you.


My first few races i used to try to bank seconds early on when i was fresh and then work like a demon to hang on to them but it was never pretty and it was soul destroying to watch the splits creep up with each km.

Lately, i'm trying to set realistic targets and run more even splits. If i know the course in advance i can allow for any major inclines/declines. I've felt a lot more satisfied & empowered at the end of races with even splits than the early days when there could be 30 secs between the 1st & 4th Kms :eek: I still haven't managed a negative split in a race but i'm getting closer.

But i guess it depends where you are fitness & experience wise. I'm still a relative newbie figuring it all out

hot buttered scones

Wottle wrote: »

http://www.runnersworld.com/race-training/go-out-fast-in-your-next-5k

Sample size isn't that big but I achieved my pb going out harder and trying to hang on 5:59, 6:23, 6:17, also only time I ever collapsed in a race msb 2009.
I was better trained then, tried it last week at a parkrun, result wasn't good but I don't think of parkrun as a proper race, so that may have played a part.

I've done similar tbh and was dieing at the end too, but I couldn't help thinking if I'd went out at my average pace for the whole 5k rather than going out fast and trying to hang on for dear life what would have happened. For example if you'd have ran 6:23, 6:17; 5:59 or even 6:13, 6:13, 6:13 you'd get the same result, and with the more even splits who knows - you might have even been able to run a quicker last mile for a larger PB. I don't do many 5k's though - too much pain!

hot buttered scones

Swashbuckler wrote: »

Surely hot buttered scones would be preferable to custard slice or chocolate eclair?

That depends on the recipe.

jk23

I have a parkrun in Oranmore tomorrow and a 5k Sunday so going to try and get under 22 in one of them. I think the tactic of maintaining a speed after an initial burst might be a good idea. Although do you find the last km very tough 😳🙈no matter how you set up to run?

ariana` wrote: »

Maybe use Park run to try different approaches to pacing and what works for you.


My first few races i used to try to bank seconds early on when i was fresh and then work like a demon to hang on to them but it was never pretty and it was soul destroying to watch the splits creep up with each km.

Lately, i'm trying to set realistic targets and run more even splits. If i know the course in advance i can allow for any major inclines/declines. I've felt a lot more satisfied & empowered at the end of races with even splits than the early days when there could be 30 secs between the 1st & 4th Kms :eek: I still haven't managed a negative split in a race but i'm getting closer.

But i guess it depends where you are fitness & experience wise. I'm still a relative newbie figuring it all out

IvoryTower

just get a pb and you can eat them all after your mcdonalds

Hannibal_Smith

Don't want to clog up the thread by quoting the post, but thank you so much for that Krusty. I'm not sure if I'm hungry for cake or a run now mind you

Very informative post and definitely one I'm saving. Thanks again.

Swashbuckler

Same here. Cheers Krusty.

Swashbuckler

Any opinions or thoughts on how to approach a 10k race week? Should any hard intervals or tempo runs be dropped completely? Mostly easy runs?

Itziger

Swashbuckler wrote: »

Any opinions or thoughts on how to approach a 10k race week? Should any hard intervals or tempo runs be dropped completely? Mostly easy runs?

I wouldn't do anything too strenuous in the last 7 or 8 days if it's a target race. A min-session maybe about 4 or 5 days out. A few 400's at race pace, or some 200's at quicker, but keep it fairly light, so not many reps.

Swashbuckler

Itziger wrote: »

I wouldn't do anything too strenuous in the last 7 or 8 days if it's a target race. A min-session maybe about 4 or 5 days out. A few 400's at race pace, or some 200's at quicker, but keep it fairly light, so not many reps.

Thanks a mill for the advice. Race is this Saturday so I guess I was planning: tomorrow - four or five 400m reps at race pace. Wednesday rest. Thursday just a few minute on minute off at race pace with a couple of miles easy and then Friday just an easy three mile jog with maybe a short 2 minute burst at race pace in the middle just to keep the legs going.

BeepBeep67

Itziger wrote: »

I wouldn't do anything too strenuous in the last 7 or 8 days if it's a target race. A min-session maybe about 4 or 5 days out. A few 400's at race pace, or some 200's at quicker, but keep it fairly light, so not many reps.

If you look at Daniels, he prescribes 3 x 1 @ T 4-5 days out, off 2 min recoveries. This should be a relatively comfortable session, just enough to get the HR raised, but not enough to risk adding additional stress.

If you feel you need to sharpen you could reduce to 2 and top and tail with a few 200's or 30-45secs strides.

BeepBeep67

Swashbuckler wrote: »

Thanks a mill for the advice. Race is this Saturday so I guess I was planning: tomorrow - four or five 400m reps at race pace. Wednesday rest. Thursday just a few minute on minute off at race pace with a couple of miles easy and then Friday just an easy three mile jog with maybe a short 2 minute burst at race pace in the middle just to keep the legs going.

Skip the additional race paced stuff, if you feel you need to add something try 3-4 30 sec strides 2-3 days out.

Paddy1234

BeepBeep67 wrote: »

Itziger wrote: »

I wouldn't do anything too strenuous in the last 7 or 8 days if it's a target race. A min-session maybe about 4 or 5 days out. A few 400's at race pace, or some 200's at quicker, but keep it fairly light, so not many reps.

If you look at Daniels, he prescribes 3 x 1 @ T 4-5 days out, off 2 min recoveries. This should be a relatively comfortable session, just enough to get the HR raised, but not enough to risk adding additional stress.

If you feel you need to sharpen you could reduce to 2 and top and tail with a few 200's or 30-45secs strides.

Is T here target race pace? Thanks
Do you have a copy of this 10k plan by any chance or is it in a book?
Is there any school of thought out there not to do any speed work and just do easy miles in the 7 days before a 10k. Would you lose a bit of sharpness doing this?

BeepBeep67

Paddy1234 wrote: »

Is T here target race pace? Thanks
Do you have a copy of this 10k plan by any chance or is it in a book?
Is there any school of thought out there not to do any speed work and just do easy miles in the 7 days before a 10k. Would you lose a bit of sharpness doing this?

T is tempo pace (half marathon pace), what you do in your final week should be in context with the plan you are following. Just remember the training is done, have faith in your plan, it's best to err on the side of caution than overcook it close to the race.

The book is the Daniel's Running Formula

Swashbuckler

BeepBeep67 wrote:

If you look at Daniels, he prescribes 3 x 1 @ T 4-5 days out, off 2 min recoveries. This should be a relatively comfortable session, just enough to get the HR raised, but not enough to risk adding additional stress.

Cheers again. I presume that's 3 x 1 mile intervals at tempo with 2 mins in between each.

adrian522

I think T = Threshold in Daniels shorthand. This would be a bit faster than HMP for most of us, though close enough I guess. For me HMP = 7:00, T= 6:53.

OOnegative

Anybody know where I could get a comprehensive list of road races in Holland?

Annie get your Run

OOnegative wrote: »

Anybody know where I could get a comprehensive list of road races in Holland?

This might be a good place to start...

http://marathons.ahotu.com/calendar/netherlands

OOnegative

Annie get your Run wrote: »

This might be a good place to start...

http://marathons.ahotu.com/calendar/netherlands

Cheers AM, but was looking for something that is a bit more comprehensive than that.