Random Running Questions

RayCun

Cartman78 wrote: »

Am generally happy with my diet but have the occasional dip in energy mid-run for no apparent reason

You have energy at the start of your run, because it's the start of your run
You have energy at the end of the run, because the end is in sight
Middle period is always the dead time

adrian522

Cartman78 wrote: »

Has anyone ever gone to a dietitian or sports nutritionist for advice?

Would be interested to hear any feedback.

Am generally happy with my diet but have the occasional dip in energy mid-run for no apparent reason

We have a dietitian in the club and she gave a talk to us last year as a group and I found it very good. Advice is nothing earth shattering however and is stuff you probably know anyway.

Personally I suffer sometimes if I eat (particularly quick release carbohydrates) too close to a run as it can cause me problems due to blood sugar levels. I've just needed to figure out by trial and error what I can eat and what I can't.

El Caballo

The Bin Man wrote: »

This is pretty close to the mark but if somebody is genuinely fat adapted (Enduro-I think- and Zach Bitter would be good examples) they can run much longer at higher intensities. The Faster Study showed this and changed the science; Bitter was involved in the study. Also, you can function perfectly well on very low glycogen stores, if you are genuinely fat adapted (not what most runners think of as fat adapted: I can run without breakfast so I'm fat adapted) or operating on ketones; there is a difference between fat adapted and working off ketones, as opposed to operating off glycogen. But yes, it's a myth about the 90 min 'rule'; intensity and fat adaptation play a role.

This may be fine for the likes of Enduro and Zach Bitter whose main goals are to not run out of fuel. Bitter being a 100 mile specialist and Enduro being a 24 hour to 6 days runner where fat is the primarily used fuel but this changes as you drift away from ultrarunning.

The Ketogenic diet is proven to affect economy which is crucial to performance and running fast, this is the amount of oxygen it takes to run at a given pace, a fat adapted athlete needs more oxygen to run at a given pace and these are actually before and after values taken from race performances which are really the only values that matter. being fat adapted might help you run faster over 10 hours where the intensity is low and oxygen is easily available to the muscle cells but when you get the higher intensities like the marathon, aerobic threshold and faster, the importance of economy is huge as the line between aerobic and anearobic is a thin one, the last thing you need is more oxygen demand for a given pace which means you are slower.

During a half marathon or 10k, the oxygen demand is much higher for a fat adapted athlete than a high carb athlete at the same pace which means the energy demand is higher for the fat adapted athlete. The knock on effect here is that during 'anearobic' performance, it does not matter how fat adapted you are because Carbohydrate in the form of lactate is your only fuel. If the fat adapted athlete needs oxygen at this pace, they are further into oxygen debt and need to produce more lactate to keep the pace and we all know where that ends up.

All of this aside and no matter which side of the debate you are on, I think there are times where you have to tell the science to take a walk for itself and become a coach. For a huge majority, this is all just a gimmick for now and training is where the major gains are at.

El Caballo

Cartman78 wrote: »

Has anyone ever gone to a dietitian or sports nutritionist for advice?

Would be interested to hear any feedback.

Am generally happy with my diet but have the occasional dip in energy mid-run for no apparent reason

This could be for a multitude of reasons but I think from reading your log that it is most likely down to the way you train over your nutrition. You don't do much volume and most of your runs are short so energy shouldn't be a huge problem once you are eating enough. I'd be more likely to look at the fact that 90% of your runs are done under 4:30 per km pace and a load done at 4 min/k pace when you only broke 40 recently for 10k. This is what I meant in my post above about training and nutrition, we tend to overlook the obvious issues of training to look for a small problem somewhere else.

When you run every run at lactate threshold or faster, you are going to have problems with energy no matter how good your nutrition is.

The Bin Man

El Caballo wrote: »

This may be fine for the likes of Enduro and Zach Bitter whose main goals are to not run out of fuel. Bitter being a 100 mile specialist and Enduro being a 24 hour to 6 days runner where fat is the primarily used fuel but this changes as you drift away from ultrarunning.

The Ketogenic diet is proven to affect economy which is crucial to performance and running fast, this is the amount of oxygen it takes to run at a given pace, a fat adapted athlete needs more oxygen to run at a given pace and these are actually before and after values taken from race performances which are really the only values that matter. being fat adapted might help you run faster over 10 hours where the intensity is low and oxygen is easily available to the muscle cells but when you get the higher intensities like the marathon, aerobic threshold and faster, the importance of economy is huge as the line between aerobic and anearobic is a thin one, the last thing you need is more oxygen demand for a given pace which means you are slower.


During a half marathon or 10k, the oxygen demand is much higher for a fat adapted athlete than a high carb athlete at the same pace which means the energy demand is higher for the fat adapted athlete. The knock on effect here is that during 'anearobic' performance, it does not matter how fat adapted you are because Carbohydrate in the form of lactate is your only fuel. If the fat adapted athlete needs oxygen at this pace, they are further into oxygen debt and need to produce more lactate to keep the pace and we all know where that ends up.

All of this aside and no matter which side of the debate you are on, I think there are times where you have to tell the science to take a walk for itself and become a coach. For a huge majority, this is all just a gimmick for now and training is where the major gains are at.

I kinda agree with most of what you said. If, however, you're referring to Burke's study about ketogenic diets and running economy, Burke's study's seriously flawed (the one with the elite race walkers)but there's no point going into that here as it'll derail the conversation. But yes, for everything from marathon down, carbs all the way. I'd even say, everything from 100miles down: Bitter uses carbs as his fuel source when racing 100k-100 miles.

Zipppy

Easy question for ye...I'm pounding away most days slowly taking some time off PBs... What's the quickest way to get faster/ stronger?

Singer

Zipppy wrote: »

Easy question for ye...I'm pounding away most days slowly taking some time off PBs... What's the quickest way to get faster/ stronger?

Pick a target race, follow a structured training plan, run the race, repeat. There aren't really any shortcuts - running more and faster will make you a better runner, and a structured training plan will ensure the right mix of easy running, sessions etc. to improve you for the target event.

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**Timbuk2**

Is it normal to have to 'break in' running shoes?

My current running shoes have served me perfectly but need to be retired as I've had them too long - the support is fairly worn. Upgraded to the same model of shoe (+4 years) however if I take them out on a long run, they feel great for the first few miles but then I start to get knee discomfort (not something I usually get).
Think it's due to me becoming accustomed to running on shoes with worn (i.e. flat) support.

Does this indicate that the shoes aren't suitable or does it just take a few shorter runs to break them in?

runnerholic

Does anyone have an idea when is the optimum time of the weekly running schedule to do leg strengthening gym exercises so as they don't negatively impact training runs?

jonnner

Yeah some shoes need breaking in. I do quite high mileage and wear shoes out quickly. most of my mileage is done in the same model of shoe. I dread getting new pairs because they take a while to break in. I'll get niggles including knee pain like yourself during this period.
It helps to wear the new ones around the house for a few weeks and introduce them for your shorter runs first. But yes you're also probably struggling with them as they may be a lot different in shape to your worn out old ones. Some models can change a lot in design over a period of years too.

**Timbuk2** wrote: »

Is it normal to have to 'break in' running shoes?

My current running shoes have served me perfectly but need to be retired as I've had them too long - the support is fairly worn. Upgraded to the same model of shoe (+4 years) however if I take them out on a long run, they feel great for the first few miles but then I start to get knee discomfort (not something I usually get).
Think it's due to me becoming accustomed to running on shoes with worn (i.e. flat) support.

Does this indicate that the shoes aren't suitable or does it just take a few shorter runs to break them in?

robinph

**Timbuk2** wrote: »

Is it normal to have to 'break in' running shoes?

No, shoes don't require breaking in. Your feet have just got used to the wear on the old ones so putting back on a shiny new pair feels strange.

I'd happily wear a brand new pair of shoes for a marathon, assuming the model hasn't changed since the last pair. I'd just wear them the once for a couple of miles to ensure there were no changes to the fit and then save them for race day. Those taking part in the World Championships at the moment probably will be wearing shoes that were taken out of the box the day before after having been delivered by their shoe sponsors.

beakerjoe

Hi guys,

Marathon training at the moment, wheres the best place for a nutritional question?

pgarr

beakerjoe wrote: »

Hi guys,

Marathon training at the moment, wheres the best place for a nutritional question?

hey beaker.

You will get a lot of responses if you post it here!

El Caballo

runnerholic wrote: »

Does anyone have an idea when is the optimum time of the weekly running schedule to do leg strengthening gym exercises so as they don't negatively impact training runs?

The general consensus is that it is best to do gym work on workout days after the workout itself so that you are keeping easy days easy and hard days hard and allowing adequate recovery time.

beakerjoe

pgarr wrote: »

hey beaker.

You will get a lot of responses if you post it here!

Ok so last time I did the marathon, after each run I drank a Whey Protein scoop mixed with milk to aid with recovery.

Ive been doing the same so far, but my friend (whos no expert btw) reckons I should be using water instead to get the most out of it rather than milk. Hes says the milk makes the whey a slow release and isnt as beneficial and thus im not getting the most out of my whey.

So is this true?

What do boardsies use to recover after a good long run?

adrian522

Protein is good for muscle repair, but replenishing carbohydrate stores is arguably more important. As long as you are eating well at mealtimes there is probably no need to go overboard with protein shakes, with or without milk.

Some people take chocolate milk after a long run to help with recovery but I've tended to go with more proper food and just have a good lunch post long run, with just water straight afterwards.

Murph_D

I would be avoiding any commercial protein recovery drinks (although I often grab a lucozade or yahoo milk drink at the end of a long run to guzzle on the short walk between local shop and my house.)

If you're a recreational marathon runner, I wouldn't be doing anything too fancy. I like to eat scrambled eggs on toast straight after a long run, with a cup of tea or two. That's just me. Always goes down well.

Generally, I agree with the theory that commercial recovery drinks are just more expensive, and less straightforward, ways to drink milk. The science behind commercial recovery drinks is, at best, inconclusive.

robinph

Murph_D wrote: »

I would be avoiding any commercial protein recovery drinks (although I often grab a lucozade or yahoo milk drink at the end of a long run to guzzle on the short walk between local shop and my house.)

Incase you were not aware Lucozade has recently changed their recipe and it no longer contains anything like the sugar content it did before in order for the company to try to avoid the sugar tax...and it now tastes disgusting apparently.

Caused me some issues finding a suitable substitute as I used to used it for treating diabetic hypos, but it's now not much better than water.

TFBubendorfer

beakerjoe wrote: »

Ok so last time I did the marathon, after each run I drank a Whey Protein scoop mixed with milk to aid with recovery.

Ive been doing the same so far, but my friend (whos no expert btw) reckons I should be using water instead to get the most out of it rather than milk. Hes says the milk makes the whey a slow release and isnt as beneficial and thus im not getting the most out of my whey.

So is this true?

What do boardsies use to recover after a good long run?

I occasionally use a protein mix that apparently can be used with either milk or water. Thing is, it does not dissolve properly in water, forms clumps and tastes horribly. There are no such problems when I use milk, so I always dissolve it in milk.

I doubt that the protein is any less effective if dissolved in milk rather than water. Even if it were released slower that would not make it any less effective.

Having said that, I would not drink a protein drink after each run. Most runs are just bread and butter easy runs that really should not require any fancy drinks for recovery. I reserve this stuff for long efforts only.

beakerjoe

Im no nutrition nut, I always just assumed a Protein shake after a work out helped recovery hence why I took one. I hate protein shakes without milk. Water and the protein mic just tasted horrible and I never wanted to touch it. Mixed with Milk though and it was a suberb taste.

Today Ive bought an Avonmore protein milk today, might try the chocolate milk tomorrow. Thanks guys

hillsiderunner

robinph wrote: »

Incase you were not aware Lucozade has recently changed their recipe and it no longer contains anything like the sugar content it did before in order for the company to try to avoid the sugar tax...and it now tastes disgusting apparently.

Caused me some issues finding a suitable substitute as I used to used it for treating diabetic hypos, but it's now not much better than water.

When did this happen!! It won't have the same jolt if they've taken the sugar out . It's a couple of months since I had any, original I mean, I hate those sports ones.

My Mam is a type-1 diabetic, we used to give her lucozade for exactly the same reason you mention.

robinph

hillsiderunner wrote: »

When did this happen!! It won't have the same jolt if they've taken the sugar out . It's a couple of months since I had any, original I mean, I hate those sports ones.

My Mam is a type-1 diabetic, we used to give her lucozade for exactly the same reason you mention.

It was a couple of months ago now. Finding a drink with as high sugar content is tricky now and I've switched to Jelly Babies, not as convenient to carry about or get hold of... although tastier.

They have halved the sugar content at the moment, but it is going to be further reduced again at some point, although I forget when.

hillsiderunner

robinph wrote: »

It was a couple of months ago now. Finding a drink with as high sugar content is tricky now and I've switched to Jelly Babies, not as convenient to carry about or get hold of... although tastier.

I eat Jelly Babies myself sometimes too but there's nothing better than a bottle of original Lucozade after a long run. Generally agree with sugar reduction but they should have left this one alone

pgarr

beakerjoe wrote: »

Ok so last time I did the marathon, after each run I drank a Whey Protein scoop mixed with milk to aid with recovery.

Ive been doing the same so far, but my friend (whos no expert btw) reckons I should be using water instead to get the most out of it rather than milk. Hes says the milk makes the whey a slow release and isnt as beneficial and thus im not getting the most out of my whey.

So is this true?

What do boardsies use to recover after a good long run?

I would agree with the previous posters - I have a smoothie i like to whip up after hard workouts (once a week, maybe twice) but generally a quick carb / protein snack if i cant have a meal soon and that's perfect for recovering for most workouts.

The thing is - after a hard workout you will deplete glycogen stores more than an easy run. So getting extra carbs in particular in is of importance here. It's about preparing your body for the coming workouts not necessarily for the workout just done.

hot buttered scones

Murph_D wrote: »

I would be avoiding any commercial protein recovery drinks (although I often grab a lucozade or yahoo milk drink at the end of a long run to guzzle on the short walk between local shop and my house.)

If you're a recreational marathon runner, I wouldn't be doing anything too fancy. I like to eat scrambled eggs on toast straight after a long run, with a cup of tea or two. That's just me. Always goes down well.

Generally, I agree with the theory that commercial recovery drinks are just more expensive, and less straightforward, ways to drink milk. The science behind commercial recovery drinks is, at best, inconclusive.

I used to take a protein shake, but then it ran out and I stopped bothering. Scrambled eggs on toast here for me as well with some sweet coffee. Maybe 4 or 5 eggs, two slices of bread and two mugs of coffee with 2 spoons of sugar in each one. Feel right as rain after that. On occasion I've had to go out later in the afternoon, which is fine during the cooler seasons and I've been lucky enough to come home to a full roast dinner - that works wonders as well!!
If I'm not going straight home though I make do with chocolate milk and a banana or something like that straight away and just make sure to have a good meal within 3 or 4 hours.

BKWDR

Am a convert from conventional foam rolling to using a massage stick, far handier. But I ache more after using the massage stick. Am I targeting more muscles as it's easier than foam rolling or am I being too hard on my muscles?

Also how frequent do you foam roll / massage stick...

Macy0161

beakerjoe wrote:

Today Ive bought an Avonmore protein milk today, might try the chocolate milk tomorrow. Thanks guys

Cheaper to go with normal milk and (myprotein or bulk powders) whey than protein milk, obviously with a bigger initial outlay.

hot buttered scones

BKWDR wrote: »

Am a convert from conventional foam rolling to using a massage stick, far handier. But I ache more after using the massage stick. Am I targeting more muscles as it's easier than foam rolling or am I being too hard on my muscles?

Also how frequent do you foam roll / massage stick...

I find the stick excellent for the calves and the quads and use a foam roller for the back and hamstrings, glutes, TFL etc along with a trigger point ball/hockey ball for the glutes.

How frequently - not enough by far.