Random Running Questions

OOnegative

Supercell wrote: »

Whats the fastest half marathon course in Ireland (Including N Ireland).
I ran the Clontarf half last weekend, it was flat but the beach section was hard going so I imagine there must be faster ones around?

Charleville in September, Mullingar & Bohermeen in March are all considered relatively flat for Ireland.

Supercell

OOnegative wrote: »

Charleville in September, Mullingar & Bohermeen in March are all considered relatively flat for Ireland.

Thanks, pity Charleville is on the day after the Dublin half which i'm entered for. One to put in the calendar for next year so!

Graham1882

Hi folks,

Have a pain in the heel/arch of my foot with the root cause being tight achillies (self diagnoses). I have taken a 2 week break from running to let it heal up. I still have a small pain in the foot, just wondering if anyone had anything similar? How long they waited before going back running?

Cheers

Seannew1

Graham1882 wrote: »

Hi folks,

Have a pain in the heel/arch of my foot with the root cause being tight achillies (self diagnoses). I have taken a 2 week break from running to let it heal up. I still have a small pain in the foot, just wondering if anyone had anything similar? How long they waited before going back running?

Cheers

Could it be tight calves?? Mine get tight now and again. At physio one time, when I had stiff ankle and tight achilles, he pointed out that it was because my calves were so tight, which surprised me. On reflection, he was correct as the more I foam rolled and stretched my calves, my achilles/ankle would be fine. So, I stretch them as much as possible, go to jacuzzi in gym and foam roll although i need a rub down from physio!

Graham1882

Seannew1 wrote:

Could it be tight calves?? Mine get tight now and again. At physio one time, when I had stiff ankle and tight achilles, he pointed out that it was because my calves were so tight, which surprised me. On reflection, he was correct as the more I foam rolled and stretched my calves, my achilles/ankle would be fine. So, I stretch them as much as possible, go to jacuzzi in gym and foam roll although i need a rub down from physio!

Could be i do spend a lot of time stretching my calves more than anything else. May just need to spend longer at it. When i go running first thing in the morning i walk a little bit 50/60 yards and Achilles always feel tight.

Seannew1

Graham1882 wrote: »

Could be i do spend a lot of time stretching my calves more than anything else. May just need to spend longer at it. When i go running first thing in the morning i walk a little bit 50/60 yards and Achilles always feel tight.

Yeah you'd be surprised how tight calves get. Next time you run, foam roll before the run and if possible take a warm bath after and see if it makes a difference. You may be like me and need a deep tissue massage every now and again on calves alone just to unleash the tightness. It's annoying as hell but only thing that works. Make sure to rest plenty, hydrate and get your calves submerged in warm/cold water. It may be a bit old school but will definitely help your achilles.

Goose76

here's a question I've been curious about and one which I'm sure there'll be differing opinions on ... how often should you race? how much racing is too much racing?

RIGOLO

Goose76 wrote: »

here's a question I've been curious about and one which I'm sure there'll be differing opinions on ... how often should you race? how much racing is too much racing?

Depends on what level your running at, the importance of the events, how often the events are and what distance the events are and how much travel is required to and fro the events.. 
Personally I like going thru a phase where I have alot of races ( upto 5,10k, 10 milers) , and as long as the body is not telling me otherwise racing 2-3 times a week is fine at that distance, for me, it might not work for you.
Obviously reduce training load, be more diligent on the recovery and dont expect to PB each race.
I think some of the top athletes will actually use a condensed racing period of many races as the training base for a particular race. 
I think racing 2 or periodically 3 times a week would be okay for most.

adrian522

OK, so I need some advice. I'm entered both the Berlin marathon and the Dublin marathon. Berlin Flights/Accommodation sorted etc.

The problem is that so far I've done little to no training. This is due to a combination of things most of which couldn't be avoided but injury and general health issues are the main things, but also motivation has been an issue.

My weekly mileage totals since late April were:

4/40/5/24/38/36/28/19/29/26/37/4

So not great. I haven't managed a long run in a long while, given up on a few attempts but fitness is currently very low.

Managed a 22 min 5K yesterday so at least I know where my fitness is.

So my question is what to do about these 2 marathons?

1. Forget about the marathons and just get back to running consistently and build up the fitness slowly.
2. Forget about Berlin and just focus on running a good marathon in Dublin
3. Focus on Dublin but run Berlin as a sort of training run.
4. Race them both based on whatever fitness I have at the time.

I'm thinking in terms of option 2 or 3 right now but I really have no idea what I'm doing to be honest.

coogy

adrian522 wrote: »

OK, so I need some advice. I'm entered both the Berlin marathon and the Dublin marathon. Berlin Flights/Accommodation sorted etc.

The problem is that so far I've done little to no training. This is due to a combination of things most of which couldn't be avoided but injury and general health issues are the main things, but also motivation has been an issue.

My weekly mileage totals since late April were:

4/40/5/24/38/36/28/19/29/26/37/4

So not great. I haven't managed a long run in a long while, given up on a few attempts but fitness is currently very low.

Managed a 22 min 5K yesterday so at least I know where my fitness is.

So my question is what to do about these 2 marathons?

1. Forget about the marathons and just get back to running consistently and build up the fitness slowly.
2. Forget about Berlin and just focus on running a good marathon in Dublin
3. Focus on Dublin but run Berlin as a sort of training run.
4. Race them both based on whatever fitness I have at the time.

I'm thinking in terms of option 2 or 3 right now but I really have no idea what I'm doing to be honest.

Wow, that's quite a conundrum.

Can you give us some idea of where you were at prior to signing up to Berlin and Dublin? I'm guessing if you've signed up for two marathons, you're relatively experienced?

If you're running a 5k in 22 mins, I imagine you're fitness isn't all that bad but your weekly mileage does seem quite sporadic which I would imagine is probably down to the health/motivation issues you referred to.

What type of injury have you had and is it still an issue?

If yes, I would guess that training for two marathons while not fully fit would be unwise.

adrian522

coogy wrote: »

Wow, that's quite a conundrum.

Can you give us some idea of where you were at prior to signing up to Berlin and Dublin? I'm guessing if you've signed up for two marathons, you're relatively experienced?

If you're running a 5k in 22 mins, I imagine you're fitness isn't all that bad but your weekly mileage does seem quite sporadic which I would imagine is probably down to the health/motivation issues you referred to.

What type of injury have you had and is it still an issue?

If yes, I would guess that training for two marathons while not fully fit would be unwise.

Hi, back in April I ran 1.32 for a half. I was probably running 45 to miles per week every week then and for most of the year to that point.

The injury was a calf strain and it's not an issue any longer I don't think.

For reference my 5k PB is 19.32 and is from last September.

RayCun

Do you actually want to run either of them?

adrian522

RayCun wrote: »

Do you actually want to run either of them?

Yeah, I want to run both of them! As there is a group going over I'm thinking I'll 100% travel over for the weekend anyway!

Murph_D

adrian522 wrote: »

Yeah, I want to run both of them! As there is a group going over I'm thinking I'll 100% travel over for the weekend anyway!

I’d do option 3 but taking it very handy indeed - easy long run pace with no ‘stuff’. In fact I’d love to have an excuse to run Berlin that way and just soak up the great atmosphere and see the sights!

skyblue46

Just a question came to my mind today after perusing many training logs on here and taking into account my own experiences. A couple of workmates have asked me to help them in training from C25K to marathon over the next 18 months. It got me thinking. Is the best plan to spend some time maximising potential over 5k and then train to increase speed endurance up the distances or to take early 5k times and then move to improving endurance? I have noticed a mix of approaches on here from conservative plans (me) to people taking on advanced plans for marathon off what I would consider a low baseline.

Swashbuckler

skyblue46 wrote:

Just a question came to my mind today after perusing many training logs on here and taking into account my own experiences. A couple of workmates have asked me to help them in training from C25K to marathon over the next 18 months. It got me thinking. Is the best plan to spend some time maximising potential over 5k and then train to increase speed endurance up the distances or to take early 5k times and then move to improving endurance? I have noticed a mix of approaches on here from conservative plans (me) to people taking on advanced plans for marathon off what I would consider a low baseline.

That's a decent question and probably deserves a thread of its own!

MonkstownHoop

Murph_D wrote: »

I’d do option 3 but taking it very handy indeed - easy long run pace with no ‘stuff’. In fact I’d love to have an excuse to run Berlin that way and just soak up the great atmosphere and see the sights!

Entering a 3rd a hopefully final week of a calf issue and that's exactly what Berlin has been reduced to for me, just going to enjoy the weekend and finish it.

Lazare

I think the early days of seeing big 5k improvements, particularly in parkrun are important. Seeing quick results is a huge psychological hook. Was for me.

I think people need to witness the potential early in order to see it through.

shotgunmcos

skyblue46 wrote: »

Just a question came to my mind today after perusing many training logs on here and taking into account my own experiences. A couple of workmates have asked me to help them in training from C25K to marathon over the next 18 months. It got me thinking. Is the best plan to spend some time maximising potential over 5k and then train to increase speed endurance up the distances or to take early 5k times and then move to improving endurance? I have noticed a mix of approaches on here from conservative plans (me) to people taking on advanced plans for marathon off what I would consider a low baseline.

Are you talking about low baseline as in low volume or low base as in poor aerobic capacity? I'd have been low baseline but decent base at the start of the journey. Aiming for improved base and higher baseline for starting the marathon cycle. Could be an interesting thread discussion in its own right. For C25k you could see great improvements from an endurance focus with a little speed work instead if pure 5k focus. The earlier you lay the marathon foundation the better whatever way you do it. But then 2 schools of thought disagree to an extent (P&D vs Hanson's). The former layering speed onto the base but the latter building speed into the foundations

I'd be in favour of a 5k focus initially to build confidence, set small benchmarks and build volume carefully behind it.

ger664

adrian522 wrote: »

OK, so I need some advice. I'm entered both the Berlin marathon and the Dublin marathon. Berlin Flights/Accommodation sorted etc.

The problem is that so far I've done little to no training. This is due to a combination of things most of which couldn't be avoided but injury and general health issues are the main things, but also motivation has been an issue.

My weekly mileage totals since late April were:

4/40/5/24/38/36/28/19/29/26/37/4

So not great. I haven't managed a long run in a long while, given up on a few attempts but fitness is currently very low.

Managed a 22 min 5K yesterday so at least I know where my fitness is.

So my question is what to do about these 2 marathons?

1. Forget about the marathons and just get back to running consistently and build up the fitness slowly.
2. Forget about Berlin and just focus on running a good marathon in Dublin
3. Focus on Dublin but run Berlin as a sort of training run.
4. Race them both based on whatever fitness I have at the time.

I'm thinking in terms of option 2 or 3 right now but I really have no idea what I'm doing to be honest.

Take option 4. Suppose conditions come perfect in Berlin and you have got to the start fresh. It would be a shame not to go for it.

I would make Berlin the target and have another go in Dublin if it doesn't go to plan in Berlin.

Testosterscone

skyblue46 wrote: »

Just a question came to my mind today after perusing many training logs on here and taking into account my own experiences. A couple of workmates have asked me to help them in training from C25K to marathon over the next 18 months. It got me thinking. Is the best plan to spend some time maximising potential over 5k and then train to increase speed endurance up the distances or to take early 5k times and then move to improving endurance? I have noticed a mix of approaches on here from conservative plans (me) to people taking on advanced plans for marathon off what I would consider a low baseline.

I think this is the key point;

What does maximising potential look like?

50-70 mpw?
Quality Speed Sessions and solid tempo work?
Good range of motion?
Solid muscular strength?

I think people generally look at X over 5k correlates to Y marathon potential and as such stop once they have the equivalent. People forget that the 5k is a deeply aerobic event and majority of solid 5k runners would be better conditioned for running longer distances than many marathon runners around.

Personally in an ideal world I would have runners stay running at 5k for 2-3 years before having the base to build up. How many miles you can run a week during a training cycle isn't as important as how many miles you have built up over 2-3 years week after week, month after month

RIGOLO

skyblue46 wrote: »

Just a question came to my mind today after perusing many training logs on here and taking into account my own experiences. A couple of workmates have asked me to help them in training from C25K to marathon over the next 18 months. It got me thinking. Is the best plan to spend some time maximising potential over 5k and then train to increase speed endurance up the distances or to take early 5k times and then move to improving endurance? I have noticed a mix of approaches on here from conservative plans (me) to people taking on advanced plans for marathon off  what I would consider a low baseline.

Other response are spot on. 
Your workmates seem to be asking you for a plan togo C25K2MARATHON ... .. 
Its great they are up for the challenge and great they have approached you . 
I think you need to set realistic goals for them , because if you lose their faith in running advice you may not get it back, so dont oversell the potential. 
As someone else said seeing 5K times improve is a great mental boost, and then to see them go down when they move to a Marathon programme will be a kick . Althouhg given they just went C25K, just by the fact they are out running they will see 5K improvements util they plateau. 
The 18 months timeframe seems reasonable though and is a minimum to go C25K2MARATHON . 
Id suggest getting people to work towards 10K times for now, if they have a marathon in mind in 18 months, thats what they should be targetting, and it wont adversely affect 5K times (given they are leisure runners) . Plan on picking up a HM in 6-8 months , and then re-assess everything. 
If people want to kick on to a Marathon programme in 6 months then they at least have upped the TIME they spend training. But again in any pool of people you will have different needs, responses, aspirations so I expect you will have to do some tailored advice 1 to 1.
A nice problem to have, give solid realistc advice you believe in yourself and you wont lose any workmate friends.

skyblue46

Testosterscone wrote: »

I think this is the key point;

What does maximising potential look like?

50-70 mpw?
Quality Speed Sessions and solid tempo work?
Good range of motion?
Solid muscular strength?

I think people generally look at X over 5k correlates to Y marathon potential and as such stop once they have the equivalent. People forget that the 5k is a deeply aerobic event and majority of solid 5k runners would be better conditioned for running longer distances than many marathon runners around.

Personally in an ideal world I would have runners stay running at 5k for 2-3 years before having the base to build up. How many miles you can run a week during a training cycle isn't as important as how many miles you have built up over 2-3 years week after week, month after month

I suppose I phrased my question incorrectly. The seed that put the question in my mind was a comment made by Murph on the Sub 4 thread. The interpretation I took from the comment was that a sub 4 should be very doable for any reasonably fit male up to 60 years of age if they were in good health and followed a marathon plan, that it was in effect a par, something that should be achieved as distinct from being an achievement.

That led me in turn to wonder if there should be the equivalent of a par for each distance which in an ideal world someone should achieve before moving up to the next distance. The numbers I wouldn't be close to guessing but for example that men/ women should achieve 23/26 min 5k before trying a 10k. They should then hit par of 48/54 mins at that before trying the next distance....etc up to 10 miles, half and then the full.

I got to thinking that one would be better prepared for the next step in that way rather than using a beginners 5k time to prepare for a beginners 10k etc, with training paces staying relatively slow. It has also been something I have noticed that lots of people use training plans which are relatively advanced for marathon training without having made any great improvements in shorter distance....not even getting par never mind birdies! :pac:

I suppose this doesn't even belong on this thread in that it's more my musings than a straight question. As I run I find myself thinking lots of random running stuff and this all came from a mix up of Murphs comment, Swashbuckler's views on the talent v hardworking discussion and my attempts at times to rationalise people's runs and PBs while browsing on Strava! :rolleyes:

Testosterscone

skyblue46 wrote: »

I suppose I phrased my question incorrectly. The seed that put the question in my mind was a comment made by Murph on the Sub 4 thread. The interpretation I took from the comment was that a sub 4 should be very doable for any reasonably fit male up to 60 years of age if they were in good health and followed a marathon plan, that it was in effect a par, something that should be achieved as distinct from being an achievement.

That led me in turn to wonder if there should be the equivalent of a par for each distance which in an ideal world someone should achieve before moving up to the next distance. The numbers I wouldn't be close to guessing but for example that men/ women should achieve 23/26 min 5k before trying a 10k. They should then hit par of 48/54 mins at that before trying the next distance....etc up to 10 miles, half and then the full.

I got to thinking that one would be better prepared for the next step in that way rather than using a beginners 5k time to prepare for a beginners 10k etc, with training paces staying relatively slow. It has also been something I have noticed that lots of people use training plans which are relatively advanced for marathon training without having made any great improvements in shorter distance....not even getting par never mind birdies! :pac:

I suppose this doesn't even belong on this thread in that it's more my musings than a straight question. As I run I find myself thinking lots of random running stuff and this all came from a mix up of Murphs comment, Swashbuckler's views on the talent v hardworking discussion and my attempts at times to rationalise people's runs and PBs while browsing on Strava! :rolleyes:

Apologies I think my tangent veered off in own direction and didn't read it properly either.

I would be in complete agreement to be honest regarding prep as a stepping stone. Though rather than have it results based I would look to training quality i.e, start with a well rounded training off lower volume and put the foundations of a solid practice outside of just the miles, from that build outward rather than the top down approach with trying to compensate for lack of aerobic base built up over years.

Personally I have found my athletes who tend to do better usually come to me with a long term view of improvement rather than I want to run X in Y race as it places limitations on the short terms approach to instill long term progression development.

Have a look at Swashbucklers training for example since November and you can see the stepping stone type approach,

Also hard work beats talent every time (at amateur level anyway where work is one of the primary variables) Talent might just get you there a little quicker.

Swashbuckler

Testosterscone wrote:

Also hard work beats talent every time (at amateur level anyway where work is one of the primary variables)

Yessssssssssss

OOnegative

Testosterscone wrote: »

Also hard work beats talent every time (at amateur level anyway where work is one of the primary variables) Talent might just get you there a little quicker.

Don’t agree with you totally on this, some people can work there a$$ off at running and show little improvement. Swashbuckler obviously has some level of talent for running on top of hard work also to be running the times he is(good coaching also). I feel i’ve worked every bit as hard as he has since he started a log here but have come nowhere near his times nor will I, the talent element being the difference between us i’d like to think.

Testosterscone

OOnegative wrote: »

Don’t agree with you totally on this, some people can work there a$$ off at running and show little improvement. Swashbuckler obviously has some level of talent for running on top of hard work also to be running the times he is(good coaching also). I feel i’ve worked every bit as hard as he has since he started a log here but have come nowhere near his times nor will I, the talent element being the difference between us i’d like to think.

Sorry I want to clarify this before people think I am dismissing the work they put in as not enough.

I think talent can definitely influence rate of progression don't get me wrong but I don't think that it is the absolute limiting factor. By that I mean I have never thought to myself that person will never run faster again, yes there are plateau's or people not responding to the same type of training but this is where you need to start turning over every stone.

Talent is also a very subjective thing. I grew up training with a group where I would be considered the least talented and never viewed myself as particularly talented, generally I tended to have to work twice as hard to get the same results but never did I think that I couldn't reach the same levels. Obviously there comes a time when the workload would not be sustainable (2 hr running, strength work, flexibility work, naps - effectively training more professional that the professionals) but that is a choice rather than the limiting factor.

OOnegative

Testosterscone wrote: »

Sorry I want to clarify this before people think I am dismissing the work they put in as not enough.

I think talent can definitely influence rate of progression don't get me wrong but I don't think that it is the absolute limiting factor. By that I mean I have never thought to myself that person will never run faster again, yes there are plateau's or people not responding to the same type of training but this is where you need to start turning over every stone.

Talent is also a very subjective thing. I grew up training with a group where I would be considered the least talented and never viewed myself as particularly talented, generally I tended to have to work twice as hard to get the same results but never did I think that I couldn't reach the same levels. Obviously there comes a time when the workload would not be sustainable (2 hr running, strength work, flexibility work, naps - effectively training more professional that the professionals) but that is a choice rather than the limiting factor.

Didn’t think you were being dismissive at all, i just think you have to have a certain level of talent to be running times that some of the folks have on here, putting in the work helps obviously.

RayCun

skyblue46 wrote: »

Just a question came to my mind today after perusing many training logs on here and taking into account my own experiences. A couple of workmates have asked me to help them in training from C25K to marathon over the next 18 months. It got me thinking. Is the best plan to spend some time maximising potential over 5k and then train to increase speed endurance up the distances or to take early 5k times and then move to improving endurance? I have noticed a mix of approaches on here from conservative plans (me) to people taking on advanced plans for marathon off what I would consider a low baseline.

I suppose at the moment they are running about 9 miles a week, three sessions of 5k?

If they add 2/3 miles to their training week per month, by this time next year they'll have a decent base. And that's a slow enough build-up that they can do plenty of speedwork along the way, they won't be just slogging through miles.

Week 1: 3 miles including strides, 3 miles easy, 4 mile 'long' run
Week 2: 3 miles including strides, 3 miles easy, 5 mile 'long' run
Week 1: 3 miles including hill sprints, 4 miles easy, 5 mile 'long' run
Week 4: 3 miles including strides, 3 miles easy, 5k race
Week 5: 3 miles including hill sprints, 4 miles easy, 5 mile 'long' run
Week 6: 3 miles including 8 x 200m, 4 miles easy, 6 mile 'long' run
Week 7: 3 miles including 8 x 200m, 5 miles easy, 6 mile 'long' run
Week 8: 3 miles including strides, 3 miles easy, 5k race
and so on
when they get to 15-20 miles/week, reduce the mileage slightly and add a 4th day.
As mileage goes up, increase the length of the intervals (but keep doing short intervals regularly)
When they're running 8/9/10 miles as their longest run, and tempo intervals, do some 10k races too
When their total mileage is up to 25-30 miles/week, they could do 10 mile races

Swashbuckler

OOnegative wrote: »

Didn’t think you were being dismissive at all, i just think you have to have a certain level of talent to be running times that some of the folks have on here, putting in the work helps obviously.

I'd disagree to be honest. I think the times you are referring to are achievable for most people but some will have to make bigger sacrifices and work harder/better/smarter than others to achieve them. Again, not suggesting people aren't working hard but I think the limit is not talent to achieve the times some of the lads on here are running.