Random Running Questions

marathon2022

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122152611#Comment_122152611

Did my first Marathon in 2019 with the help of the wonderful running gurus on this here forum, I followed the Dublin Marathon mentored thread(2024 version starting in a few weeks I would think) to a sub 4 hour. Although you have to find whats right for yourself there are so many opinions here, you will more than likely find the right one.

yerwanthere123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122110771#Comment_122110771

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122111048#Comment_122111048

Sorry for the delay in getting back to ye.

After I wrote that post I took 6 days off from running before running 4 miles last Sunday 12th. Again, it was a little sore for a couple of days after, nothing too bad, but sore to touch and a little sore to walk on. I then dropped down to 5k on Wednesday and had a similar reaction, but any pain is almost gone for now. So I'm not too sure where I stand really. I think I might just stick to smaller distances for now (around 5k or so) and only run every three days or so, waiting for any pain or discomfort to fade before I run again or up my mileage. If it gets worse or doesn't go away I might have to take a different course of action.

One thing I should probably mention is I've also joined a gym recently which is all completely new to me. So maybe that's having an affect too, I don't know.

So answer your question ILikeBoats I never got an MRI on the leg. After initially being told it was free I subsequently found out it I'd have to pay over €300. My physio was very confident that it was a stress fracture though, and my leg responded well to wearing a boot for four and a half weeks, so I decided to take my chances. I was out of the boot for seven weeks before I went back running, and any pain/discomfort only reoccurred four weeks after reintroducing running.

MisterJinx

A question about warm-ups.

I'm back to doing some more interval based sessions and I've noticed something which I had forgotten. After an easy warm up and some dynamic stretches (sometimes) than the usual pattern is that the first one is really quite hard and you think that you'll never be able to hold the pace for the entire set but once the first one is over then the second one tends to be much better and for easier breathing and effort I can hold the pace. I've noticed this across all distances of interval even in Marathon paced sessions last year. I think this is completely normal however it got me to think about race day.

Typically I would just do some easy running and dynamic stretches before a race however it would be good to get that "first interval" out of the way and start the race on pace/effort. Not being overly experienced or racing all that much I don't have an idea of what are good warm up techniques for various race distances. I would have always been concerned with wasting energy beforehand and saving as much as possible for the race itself however this is probably not an optimum approach.

Does anyone have any ideas on good warm up techniques for various race distances? Does the race distance impact the warm up? Should you try and do some effort at race pace and for how long?

Escapees

Any race warm up I did in the past would have included doing some striding for 100m distances, just to loosen out and check the legs etc. It doesn't really make sense to just only stretch and do a slow jog as a warm up before a road race.

Sandwell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122176723#Comment_122176723

In addition to strides I sometimes do two minutes at tempo effort before a race or speed session. I find it helps with what you describe. I'll do the warmup, stretches, strides and then finish with the tempo effort.

nozzferrahhtoo

No real question really though random commentary would be welcome though of course I am not seeking medical advice just some thinking out loud.

Sigh It looks like I have to pull out of a marathon attempt I was going to do this Sunday.

I tried a marathon last year and dropped out at 29km due to knee pain. In fairness my equipment was bad and my readiness not up to par. But I tried it anyway. When the pain came I decided not to push it.

Since I have been better at my preparation and improved shoes and some knees over toes guy stuff and all was good. Been running two to three half marathons a week for months now.

On the 12th and 14th I did a nice half marathon with a good time and felt great and it was in high heat weather so I was extra happy with my performance. Before that on the 9th I did a 32km session and felt great after that too.

I had a bit of a break due to travel and felt good on Wednesday this week and decided to go out for a 10km to just loosen up before Sunday. But after 3km I felt a pain I never felt before. Right leg about half way between ankle and knee. Like a ring of muscle pain around the whole leg which extended slowly as I ran down the back of my lower leg but not reaching the ankle. So I abandoned the run as it slowly got more painful.

Tried it again yesterday for 10 minutes and today too. The pain came back both times.

As soon as I stopped running the pain quickly subsided and my leg felt entirely normal and fine as if it would be happy to go running again. No tenderness, discoloration or swelling or any other signs of an issue like reduced range of motion or anything. I can easily go up and down the flights of stairs between my car and my apartment. Touch my toes from standing. No issues at all.

Nothing has changed recently and I had no injuries or anything else I can blame as a root cause. Dr. Google and Dr. ChatGPT throw out a couple of possible explanations mostly one kind of tendinitis or another. It just comes on if I start running (first signs after about 1km) and disappears fairly quick when I stop. So hopefully its nothing more serious than a muscle that's in a bad way for some reason and just needs some time.

So I think I will just put the feet up for the weekend and go to the Doctor on Monday morning for some diagnostics and maybe an ultrasound or something. But feeling really down about it as I was genuinely looking forward to this weekends Marathon. Pulling out of a marathon mere days before the event probably happens to people on here a lot I guess, but it doesn't get emotionally easier I assume? :(

Escapees

The way you describe it sounds like a calf cramping! But assuming nothing so trivial, is there any possibility you might have a stress fracture of your shin bone?

nozzferrahhtoo

No pain anywhere near the shin. The majority of it is in the back of the leg and feels entirely muscular. I am also able to manipulate and smack and thump my leg all over with no sign of anything damaged or complaining or hurting. I can drum on the bones and nothing is uncomfortable. In fact there is no sign anything is wrong until I have been running about 1KM when it sets on…. but once I stop running it dissipates again quickly.

Doing nothing much with it today. Just resting around mostly. I went to the shops earlier and was able to run down and back up 5 flights of stairs. No discomfort.

I might get up at dawn tomorrow and give it a try and see if its corrected itself. But my hope is low.

Lazare

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122178495#Comment_122178495

Interesting. My go to warm up would be starting easy and building to about steady effort, then a couple of strides. I like the sound of that 2 mins @ tempo, will give it a try.

Lately for our club sessions we do a set of strides then some plyometrics, pogo jumps. Feels like it works well.

Lazare

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122178495#Comment_122178495

Interesting. My go to warm up would be starting easy and building to about steady effort, then a couple of strides. I like the sound of that 2 mins @ tempo, will give it a try.

Lately for our club sessions we do a set of strides then some plyometrics, pogo jumps. Feels like it works well.

Unknownability

Has anyone used final surge as a training plan platform previously?

I'm currently using it for a half marathon and I've no idea how to adjust the pace of the work outs. It seems to be set up using a time of 1'25 which I was previously aiming for and now I can't figure out how to change that to a slower time.

macchoille

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120307461#Comment_120307461

Thanks so much for the tips back then. I did listen and slowed it down. I did take the plunge and joined a club too.

I’m still running away and still learning . Broke 20 mins last July in the 5k and managed a sub 90 HM back in August (as well as a few decent 10k and 15ks).

This season I broke 19mins and 18 mins in the 5k, broke 39 mins in the 10k. Hoping to officially break 17:45 in the 5k (strava says I have already in a race that was 50m over ). Will be switching over to HM training early next month; hoping for a comfortable sub 1hr 15k and a sub 85 HM.

event

Wow, that is huge progression in just over a year. Well done

Mantis Toboggan

How many km's on average is needed weekly to train for a marathon?

First marathon and mainly just looking to finish it and with a half decent time around 4.30ish?

The Black Oil

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122236539#Comment_122236539

Plans tend to operate in 3-4 week cycles. Build, build, build, recover. It's partly about gradual increases in overall mileage, stepping it back and building up again, whilst keeping up some speed work in recovery weeks. You will not run the full marathon as a training run, btw. 32-35km is often the max in plans. After those, you'll be near taper time.

Join the 2024 novices thread if you're aiming for Dublin.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058354390/2024-dcm-mentored-novices-thread

marathon2022

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122236539#Comment_122236539

The novices thread will get you to the start line in good shape, good luck

Murph_D

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122178957#Comment_122178957

I'd go see a trusted physio. Dr Google is cheap and fast, but not good. Dr ChatGPT is the same as Dr. Google, except using less up to date information.

I'm not surprised you've had an issue - doing back to back half-marathon paced runs days apart, a few days after a 32k long run is overkill for most recreational runners. Sounds like you are suffering some sort of repetitive stress injury - could be any number of things and requires an assessment by someone who knows their stuff.

Good luck!

Mantis Toboggan

Could anyone recommend a massage gun?

TheRef

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122245418#Comment_122245418

Hoenstly, I'd just for for a generic chinese made brand on amazon. Should cost about £35. Its what I done and it does the job grand.

The Black Oil

Foam rolling is your friend too.

FinnC

Bought a Pulsio Air one there lately, have had the cheap Chinese ones but this is definitely a better product. Wasn't even that expensive relatively speaking. Think it was €85.

Mantis Toboggan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122247462#Comment_122247462

I've had foam rollers and never known how to use them 🥴

Murph_D

YouTube is also your friend. 😁

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122247642#Comment_122247642

Bredabe

I apologise if this has been asked endlessly(the thread to long to go through atm), am considering doing the couch to 5k programme from the start, but I need some guidance on the timer ppl use for this. Can anyone suggest one that isn't expensive/not a phone/ and pref hang around the neck(tho wrist might work)

The Black Oil

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122263332#Comment_122263332

If you can carry a phone, look up NHS Couch to 5k. If not, do you've anything like a small kitchen timer?

This is the paper version. https://downloads.bbc.co.uk/scotland/makeyourmove/c25k_printable_plan.pdf

Or perhaps. https://www.decathlon.ie/2142-watch-and-stopwatch

https://www.bbc.co.uk/mediacentre/2024/bbc-sport-and-couch-to-5k-hits-7-million-downloads

T-Bird

I did my c25k using the NHS app and found it great. They also have a great forum called healthunlocked.

squinn2912

Didn’t know where to ask this and I apologise if it’s already been asked but I bought Saucony Ride 17s for my vanilla daily stuff and it’s a very comfortable runner. The only problem I have is that the tongue slips down almost immediately which is very bothersome for the top of my foot. Anyone any hacks? It doesn’t happen with other runners Saucony or otherwise for me.

Any advice or recommendations are welcome! Thanks.

shano_88

Looking for a 10k race in Munster mid/late July. Any recommendations? Was going to do Kilkee but it's sold out.

omicron

Theres a new race in Youghal on the August 11th if that's any good, part of a new weekend festival.

https://www.corkathletics.org/events/eventdetail/7292/-/youghal-half-marathon-10k-2024.html

Ceepo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122276869#Comment_122276869

Might be a bit early for you, but there is a 10k in Dundrum Tipperary on 3 July.

Flat fast 2 lap course, always a great event. And a potentially a PB to be had 😉

shano_88

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122276943#Comment_122276943

This would be perfect location wise but I've a stag the weekend before. I might still go to this but certainly won't be a PB attempt!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122276869#Comment_122276869

Thanks, I'll take a look. A bit of a trek for me but could make a night of it.

Murph_D

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122276665#Comment_122276665

Does it have eyelets in the tongue itself? Some shoes do. Lace ‘em up if so, that might do it.

Sunny Dayz

Hi all - I'm heading up the DCM 24 novices thread. If a couple of people would like to help out with the mentoring please drop me a dm here. Thanks.

squinn2912

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122278955#Comment_122278955

no, not even. I raced in the endorphin speeds last night and they don’t either but no bother with the tongue slipping in them strangely

Sunny Dayz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122284066#Comment_122284066

thanks all - got sorted.

Trampas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122137301#Comment_122137301

I’ve and others have done it. Just look at Dublin as a training run. Check what your plan is. My own plan was 37km easy. So I just plod around. Might bang a few MP miles over last few but really depends. I’ve a sports massage booked in a few days after it. The most important thing is to stick to your plan and not get caught up in the race. Both races are great

kd82

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122293252#Comment_122293252

Thanks @Trampas . I've decided to just do Valencia this time. I've an upcoming holiday so just want to enjoy that and have an extra month before starting the marathon block. It's only my second marathon so I think it's the right choice to just go with 1 and pop into Dublin to support. Thanks for the advice though.

chabsey

Marathon training plans - Intervals and how you should feel after doing them.

I'm curious as to what people would consider the norm for doing intervals or other speed work, as part of a marathon training plan. What I've read is that if you've decided on your planned finishing time, you calculate the paces required for the speed work etc. When you're actually doing the intervals if you find yourself gasping for breath during the recovery period of the interval then you've likely chosen too ambitious a finishing time / pace. This seems like sound advice but I've a question on it….

If you imagine you're doing a session of 6 X 800m and for 4 of those intervals you're OK during the recovery section (I mean you're not totally fine but you're not doubled over gasping). However, for the last couple it starts to be quite a bit more difficult, you can maintain the required pace but at the end of the section would definitely need about half of the recovery time before you could jog again (assuming active recovery). Would that still be an indicator that the pace is too ambitious?

The Black Oil

I'm a bit rusty on intervals as I've not really been following any plans. Why not look at it from an effort perspective, rather than pace?

Escapees

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122297273#Comment_122297273

I think there's a bit of over-thinking going on here. If you're not doubled-over and your legs aren't hanging off you afterwards, then all's well. The recovery period is as the name suggests for recovering - not half of this period but all of it.

Edit: Sorry I misunderstood your post. It sounds now like you're stopping after the interval, before starting to jog? You should always be able to just fall back into a jog in between intervals, even a very slow jog just to keep things moving.

chabsey

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122299158#Comment_122299158

Thanks, what's happening for me (not always but most intervals sessions) is the following:

6X800m session with 2 min recovery.

First 4 X 800 fine, run the interval, jog the 2 min recovery, repeat.

Last couple, definitely feeling like I'm lucky this isn't 7X800 cause I know I'm wrecked. Manage to maintain the pace, into the recovery - standing still, get breath back for 30 second or 1 min then jog the final 1 min recovery. I hasten to add that this is only the last couple of intervals, possibly part of it is psychological in that I know I'm nearing the end of the session.

So - question is, given that it's only the final couple of intervals that see me struggling, is this the norm or am I pushing too hard? Should I blast through all 6 repeats without a problem?

Rossi7

No reason why you can't stop altogether for the recoveries. Rule of thumb I follow is that you should be able to do an extra one if my coach asks. You are getting your body use to feeling uncomfortable at a certain pace. You want each interval to be even throughout ie 800m @4mins avg, each lap should be 2mins or thereabouts. No use hammering the 1st 400 in 1.50 and blowing the 2nd 400 in 2.10. This maybe the reason you find the last couple of reps though.

Butterbeans

Yep, consistency is key. If you hammer the first few you'll really struggle towards the end.

If the reps are consistent then I don't worry too much about the recovery in between

28064212

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122297273#Comment_122297273

I think you're paying way too much attention to the pace of a short interval workout. Being unable to complete a 6*800m as prescribed means you went out too hard in the first few reps, slow your pace for those. But the difference between doing (for example) 4*800 at 3:00 versus 6*800 at 3:10 has very little to do with what you're capable of running a marathon in. If you were struggling to do longer workouts, like say 15-20k at marathon pace (in the latter stages of a plan), then yes, you should start looking at whether your planned pace is realistic, but 800m rep pace really isn't that relevant.

Also, this part:

you've decided on your planned finishing time, you calculate the paces required for the speed work etc.

is a bit off (IMO). I mean, it depends on where you are in your running life, as well as where you are in your specific plan, but your paces should be based off your current level of fitness, not what you hope to be able to do at the end of the plan. If a plan calls for 5k at marathon effort in the first week of a plan, I consider that to mean 5k at marathon effort, not necessarily 5k at the pace I hope to do 18 weeks from now. A quote from Jack Daniels (not the whiskey guy):

For the first 6 weeks of this program, use the lesser of the VDOT values that is equal to a recent race and 2 VDOT units lower than your anticipated marathon VDOT

(VDOT being a calculation of your running ability based on a race time, and used to specify your workout paces)

chabsey

"If a plan calls for 5k at marathon effort in the first week of a plan, I consider that to mean 5k at marathon effort, not necessarily 5k at the pace I hope to do 18 weeks from now. A quote from Jack Daniels (not the whiskey guy):"

This is very interesting, not something I'd thought of before. I'm not sure how I'd quantify marathon effort though, I find it difficult to know, in the early stages, what I'd be capable of running for that distance and would err on the side of caution (meaning possibly slower than I would be able for).

This is the first time I've seen that though, the idea that while a plan might call for a 5k MP effort in week 1, you don't actually have to hit exactly MP on it. Previously I would have immediately written off, in week 1, the idea of achieving any finishing time that I couldn't meet the prescribed distances and paces for as per the plan.

MisterJinx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122305025#Comment_122305025

Ok so a small subset of 2 marathons but I went with MP effort for the whole 2 training blocks and only settled on the pace in the last weeks. Fitness improves as you go so especially early in the plan I went with effort.

For me I used HR and a combination of race and easy pace to get a rough idea. I had a rough HR zone, 150 to 160 and then I also looked at my easy pace, bracket up was steady and next bracket up was MP. This was plenty in the beginning to get a rough idea. I didn't run to a MP for a very long time and my MP on race day was slightly faster then my training effort. I'd expect on race day to be fitter and more rested than sitting training so didn't worry about the pace being slower than any particular goal pace.

py

😎test

Wottle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122305025#Comment_122305025

Add 40 to 50 secs per km to your 5k race pace and see how you get on.

I've also used HR, I tend to start about 5 beats below my marathon average HR, works well for me.

Quiet Achiever

First 10k race in Achill next week and I'm floored with Covid, no energy and haven't run in over a week.

Can't see me managing a long run this weekend either so i fear Achill won't happen

Has anyone run with or shortly after a bad bout with brain fog?

chabsey

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122307492#Comment_122307492

I'll let you know tomorrow hopefully, currently feeling pretty wiped out from some dose. Wanted to stay in bed all day yesterday, a bit better today and I'm hoping to try some form of running tomorrow but time will tell. Very frustrating.