Random Running Questions

Bananaleaf

Wondering what more experienced runners would think of this idea.

I will be running my first marathon next year. DCM.

My plan had been to start training with the mentored novice thread when it begins at the end of June.

However, I really don't like the idea of just having those 16weeks of marathon training behind me and I was thinking of beginning marathon training now. In fact, I have already begun.

So, the plan was to begin a very basic, beginner marathon plan from Runners World book I have. 16 weeks training, which I began three weeks ago. This plan brings me to 3rd Feb.

I plan to take a week off then and start back into a second marathon training plan (M plan from the Graduates thread here on boards by MylesSplitz) on 11th Feb, which will take me up to 9th June which will leave me with two weeks of rest before starting into the mentored novice training plan.

My reasoning for this is that I want to be very comfortable with the distances. I know myself well and I remember training for my first half and just following the 1 plan and really, I felt that covering those major distances once was just not enough for me.

Does this sound like madness or a good idea?

Thanks in advance

Enduro

ReeReeG wrote: »

Thanks will take a look at both of these most likely

Have a read of this first, for an interesting alternative viewpoint. (just happened to arrive into my inbox this morning).

El CabaIIo

Having the understanding to be able to observe form flaws and how to change them is an exceptionally difficult concept and probably not something you will get in a book. Most people who are qualified to do it have a medical degree under their belt because biomechanics hinge on how your nervous system and a chain of muscles work together. How your legs move might be caused by a muscle in your neck for instance.

Actually identify the cause of a form flaw can be really complex and even harder when you are trying to fix it yourself because you can't observe your own running form when doing so. Cueing is also very important as although you can cvreate a pattern that looks correct, if you are not using a correct cue to get this, you end up using muscles that weren't meant to do that job making you less efficient and more injury prone.

Some examples of bad cueing would be:

lift the knees up(you'll hear this all the time). What is really happening when you see high knee lift in elites is that created good hip extension when pushing off and high knee is an elastic consequence of that. If you lift the knees, you expend energy trying to move a muscle that is using a passive reaction(elastic motion)

Next bad cue is lift the heels early and high back kick. These are also passive motions from good hip extension at push off. When you run, you want to have as much elastic energy return as possible to avoid using muscles that use up energy and fatigue.

Things like forcing forefoot or midfoot strikes. Every action has a reaction so a lot of these patterns aren't the root cause, they are a consequence of another action.

Efficient running form is form that uses more elastic energy and less muscular force.

Steve Magness done a really good article on chi-running and pose running years ago and backed it up with lab tests where they measured force production and muscalur activity to basically end the debate on Chi-running and Pose methods as anyway credible. Here it is:

https://www.scienceofrunning.com/2011/04/most-important-information-you-will.html?v=d2cb7bbc0d23

Magness himself isn't against making changes to form and wrote a two part series on it here:

https://www.scienceofrunning.com/2010/08/how-to-run-running-with-proper.html?v=awards

https://www.scienceofrunning.com/2010/08/how-to-run-part-2-cues-pictures-videos.html?v=d2cb7bbc0d23

Running hill sprints and running mileage will also improve your form along with drills that target your coordination and strength and mobility. I know myself from experience that my running form has improved hugely since I started running despite never really focusing on conciously changing it. I used to have that dropped hip on one side with an egg beater splayed foot. It's funny looking through old photos now and seeing the change over the years, it's almost non-existent now unless you catch me at the end of a marathon where I've bonked and my muscles have seized in my hips.

Spirogyra

Any other spectacle wearers here ? Need them in the dark more than during daylight as I get blinded by the lights,they are very sensitive. But they also fog up quite a bit and I literally struggle to see ,especially in cold weather. Seems like I'm 'blinded' either way. Anyone else encounter similar?

juke

Spirogyra wrote: »

Any other spectacle wearers here ? Need them in the dark more than during daylight as I get blinded by the lights,they are very sensitive. But they also fog up quite a bit and I literally struggle to see ,especially in cold weather. Seems like I'm 'blinded' either way. Anyone else encounter similar?

Have you tried to coat the lenses in an 'anti-fog'? You should be able to get some in a winter sports shop.

Kellygirl

Bananaleaf wrote: »

Wondering what more experienced runners would think of this idea.

I will be running my first marathon next year. DCM.

My plan had been to start training with the mentored novice thread when it begins at the end of June.

However, I really don't like the idea of just having those 16weeks of marathon training behind me and I was thinking of beginning marathon training now. In fact, I have already begun.

So, the plan was to begin a very basic, beginner marathon plan from Runners World book I have. 16 weeks training, which I began three weeks ago. This plan brings me to 3rd Feb.

I plan to take a week off then and start back into a second marathon training plan (M plan from the Graduates thread here on boards by MylesSplitz) on 11th Feb, which will take me up to 9th June which will leave me with two weeks of rest before starting into the mentored novice training plan.

My reasoning for this is that I want to be very comfortable with the distances. I know myself well and I remember training for my first half and just following the 1 plan and really, I felt that covering those major distances once was just not enough for me.

Does this sound like madness or a good idea?

Thanks in advance

What sort of mileage have you been doing in the last year and what sort of training? I’m just wondering would three marathon plans in a row be a bit of a slog.

There’s a great book called Faster Road Racing by Pfitzinger and Latter that I’m currently reading. That has a base training plan that is 10 weeks long. Longest run is 9 miles or so but there’s a harder run each week too that would work on your pace/speed. You could then do the HM plan or one of the others next.

I think that would give you a good build up and base and you’d be in a great place heading into a marathon training plan then. Ideally heading into the marathon training plan you need to be used to the consistency that these plans would give you.

ReeReeG

El CabaIIo wrote: »

Having the understanding to be able to observe form flaws and how to change them is an exceptionally difficult concept and probably not something you will get in a book. Most people who are qualified to do it have a medical degree under their belt because biomechanics hinge on how your nervous system and a chain of muscles work together. How your legs move might be caused by a muscle in your neck for instance.

Actually identify the cause of a form flaw can be really complex and even harder when you are trying to fix it yourself because you can't observe your own running form when doing so. Cueing is also very important as although you can cvreate a pattern that looks correct, if you are not using a correct cue to get this, you end up using muscles that weren't meant to do that job making you less efficient and more injury prone.

Some examples of bad cueing would be:

lift the knees up(you'll hear this all the time). What is really happening when you see high knee lift in elites is that created good hip extension when pushing off and high knee is an elastic consequence of that. If you lift the knees, you expend energy trying to move a muscle that is using a passive reaction(elastic motion)

Next bad cue is lift the heels early and high back kick. These are also passive motions from good hip extension at push off. When you run, you want to have as much elastic energy return as possible to avoid using muscles that use up energy and fatigue.

Things like forcing forefoot or midfoot strikes. Every action has a reaction so a lot of these patterns aren't the root cause, they are a consequence of another action.

Efficient running form is form that uses more elastic energy and less muscular force.

Steve Magness done a really good article on chi-running and pose running years ago and backed it up with lab tests where they measured force production and muscalur activity to basically end the debate on Chi-running and Pose methods as anyway credible. Here it is:

https://www.scienceofrunning.com/2011/04/most-important-information-you-will.html?v=d2cb7bbc0d23

Magness himself isn't against making changes to form and wrote a two part series on it here:

https://www.scienceofrunning.com/2010/08/how-to-run-running-with-proper.html?v=awards

https://www.scienceofrunning.com/2010/08/how-to-run-part-2-cues-pictures-videos.html?v=d2cb7bbc0d23

Running hill sprints and running mileage will also improve your form along with drills that target your coordination and strength and mobility. I know myself from experience that my running form has improved hugely since I started running despite never really focusing on conciously changing it. I used to have that dropped hip on one side with an egg beater splayed foot. It's funny looking through old photos now and seeing the change over the years, it's almost non-existent now unless you catch me at the end of a marathon where I've bonked and my muscles have seized in my hips.

Thanks, this is really interesting. I do know my form has changed (hopefully improved) already since I started from looking at photos also, but I still feel there is a lot of room for more positive changes. Hill sprints are a good point, as they are something I tend to avoid, but maybe that's a good starting point for me.

jacool

Cork Airport Run tonight - I got the tee-shirt and number.
Can anyone tell me is the top of the number (where the chip is) meant to be folded down, or lying flat?
Mine is just sticking out at a 90 degree angle to the actual section where the number is. I just don't want to damage the chip when I'm attaching it to the shirt later.
Thanks.

BeepBeep67

jacool wrote: »

Cork Airport Run tonight - I got the tee-shirt and number.
Can anyone tell me is the top of the number (where the chip is) meant to be folded down, or lying flat?
Mine is just sticking out at a 90 degree angle to the actual section where the number is. I just don't want to damage the chip when I'm attaching it to the shirt later.
Thanks.

Leave it as is, probably should say on the reverse not to bend or flatten.

Thoie

I've tried couch 2 5k in the past on my own (didn't complete it). I'm starting soon on a "Run with so'n'so" 6 week course, which will be outdoors in the dark. I'm not sure what to wear. At the moment going for a walk, I'm wearing tracksuit bottoms, hat, gloves, scarf, long sleeve vest, tshirt, and a down jacket. As I warm up I open the jacket. That all sounds a bit excessive if I'm running, but I know I'll be freezing to start with. I'm guessing that taking the jacket off part way would be frowned upon (as I'd then be trying to carry it).

Do you just brave the first x minutes of being cold and wear clothes that will be sufficient later? If it's raining, do you wear a windcheater over whatever else you're wearing?

Kellygirl

Thoie wrote: »

I've tried couch 2 5k in the past on my own (didn't complete it). I'm starting soon on a "Run with so'n'so" 6 week course, which will be outdoors in the dark. I'm not sure what to wear. At the moment going for a walk, I'm wearing tracksuit bottoms, hat, gloves, scarf, long sleeve vest, tshirt, and a down jacket. As I warm up I open the jacket. That all sounds a bit excessive if I'm running, but I know I'll be freezing to start with. I'm guessing that taking the jacket off part way would be frowned upon (as I'd then be trying to carry it).

Do you just brave the first x minutes of being cold and wear clothes that will be sufficient later? If it's raining, do you wear a windcheater over whatever else you're wearing?

I would normally wear running tights and a long sleeved top and high vis over that. If under 5 or 6 degrees I’d wear a running jacket too which is wind and water proof/resistant, hat and gloves. You can always tie the jacket around your waist and put the gloves in the pocket. Heatons / Sports World is good for stuff that’s not too expensive.

Good luck with the course.

Singer

Spirogyra wrote: »

Do you run in the frost or more pertinent is it safe to do so?. Any suggestions as to how to make it less unsafe?. A lot of it recently and it's starting to interfere.
Thanks
S

Frost itself is not unsafe to run on. Ice is, and serious ice is a lot less frequent in our part of the world. If it's icy then you could try slowing down, run in well lit areas, wear trail shoes, run in grass, running in the afternoon...

TFBubendorfer

Spirogyra wrote: »

Any other spectacle wearers here ? Need them in the dark more than during daylight as I get blinded by the lights,they are very sensitive. But they also fog up quite a bit and I literally struggle to see ,especially in cold weather. Seems like I'm 'blinded' either way. Anyone else encounter similar?

I am very short sighted and can barely exist without my glasses but I fairly quickly came to the realisation that it's easier to leave the glasses at home, especially in winter when it's cold and they quickly fog up. I can see where the road is.

I do stumble from time to time because I trip up over some uneven surfaces that I didn't notice but when you run on the same routes most days you quickly learn where to take care.

skyblue46

Kellygirl wrote: »

What sort of mileage have you been doing in the last year and what sort of training? I’m just wondering would three marathon plans in a row be a bit of a slog.

There’s a great book called Faster Road Racing by Pfitzinger and Latter that I’m currently reading. That has a base training plan that is 10 weeks long. Longest run is 9 miles or so but there’s a harder run each week too that would work on your pace/speed. You could then do the HM plan or one of the others next.

I think that would give you a good build up and base and you’d be in a great place heading into a marathon training plan then. Ideally heading into the marathon training plan you need to be used to the consistency that these plans would give you.

I'd just add that doing the grads plan and following with the novices plan is a bit like doing your junior cert and then going back to do your entrance exam. It would be a step back.

Baby75

ReeReeG wrote: »

Are there any go-to books or websites for looking at running form? I know this is an area I've never worked on since taking up running, so I figured it might be a good idea over the winter when all I intend on running are easy miles anyway.

Have you ever looked up cadence I watched a good video on youtube by Kinetic revolution https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08lmp5zQAmA
it is something I am interested in. I wanted to improve my running form when I got injured and my physio suggested I work on it.
I have improved mine over the summer I was about 160 but am up to 180 now. I went to a running class and the coach got us to check ours and showed us what it feels like when your landing correctly which helped and then I used specific music with a beat in it and songs that were 90 BPM you can use a methadone on your phone either

This video is good and some other tips on improving your cadence and form https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9nPdKhHp-0

ReeReeG

skyblue46 wrote: »

I'd just add that doing the grads plan and following with the novices plan is a bit like doing your junior cert and then going back to do your entrance exam. It would be a step back.

Shocked you didn't say Inter cert :P

ReeReeG

Baby75 wrote: »

Have you ever looked up cadence I watched a good video on youtube by Kinetic revolution https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08lmp5zQAmA  
it is something I am interested in. I  wanted to improve my running form when I got injured and my physio suggested I work on it.
I have improved mine over the summer I was about 160 but am up to 180 now. I went to a running class and the coach got us to check ours and showed us what it feels like when your landing correctly which helped and then I used specific music with a beat in it and songs that were 90 BPM you can use a methadone on your phone either

This video is good and some other tips on improving your cadence and form https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9nPdKhHp-0

Thanks N! Will bookmark that video...

skyblue46

ReeReeG wrote: »

Shocked you didn't say Inter cert :P

I remembered what my youngest lad did a year ago!

Shocked you heard of the Inter cert :pac:

ReeReeG

skyblue46 wrote: »

I remembered what my youngest lad did a year ago!

Shocked you heard of the Inter cert :pac:

I have really old siblings ;)

Huzzah!

On a similar theme: Has anyone had the 3D run analysis thing done and is it worth it?

It sounds like it might be better to just go to a physio and get a strength programme done but I thought I'd ask.

A doctor made a comment to me about being knock-kneed and it's kind of still rankling me.

Bananaleaf

Kellygirl wrote: »

What sort of mileage have you been doing in the last year and what sort of training? I’m just wondering would three marathon plans in a row be a bit of a slog.

There’s a great book called Faster Road Racing by Pfitzinger and Latter that I’m currently reading. That has a base training plan that is 10 weeks long. Longest run is 9 miles or so but there’s a harder run each week too that would work on your pace/speed. You could then do the HM plan or one of the others next.

I think that would give you a good build up and base and you’d be in a great place heading into a marathon training plan then. Ideally heading into the marathon training plan you need to be used to the consistency that these plans would give you.

Thanks for the reply.

My running hasn't been hugely consistent but I think I am close to 900kms so far this year. I was doing 100km per month until a bit of PF and then the heatwave and a new puppy (I'm a wimp) stopped me.

However, during the times that I wasn't running I was going to the gym, so there hasn't been a break in my activity.

Up to about a month ago I was getting about 2 or 3 runs in a week and 3 visits to the gym for SandC.

In the past month I've been doing 4 runs per week and 3 days in gym for S&C. The runs have been 2 x 5k, one around 8-10k and a longer one at the weekend. Will be up to 20km tomorrow.

I don't think that 3 days S&C will be sustainable long term, so I aim to reduce that to 1 or 2 days and replace the third day with yoga - trying to cover all bases so as to minimise injury.

I think you might be right about three of them being a drag. Would you recommend that I stick to the 3days S&C, 3 runs for a bit? Until around Feb time? Or should I be doing more than 3 right from the off?

Sorry if my post seems a bit silly - I am a member of an athletics club but I don't want to ask them because I don't want to tell anyone that I'm taking the marathon on just yet. I couldn't really deal with the pressure of being asked about it all the time. I really really don't want to fail in my endeavour and want to do everything I can to succeed.

Edited to add - what sort of training? Mostly just slow enough runs t be honest. At the beginning of the year I was doing speed sessions with club once a week, but I haven't been to club runs since April as times no longer suit at the moment and have been just getting out when I can. So, just running around the town really. Generally the same routes too. Have entered a race each month but haven't had any PBs since I have stopped the speed work. I still get the plans from the club so doing the speed session myself at a later time to the club is an option

skyblue46

Huzzah! wrote: »

On a similar theme: Has anyone had the 3D run analysis thing done and is it worth it?

It sounds like it might be better to just go to a physio and get a strength programme done but I thought I'd ask.

A doctor made a comment to me about being knock-kneed and it's kind of still rankling me.

It could be worse....in the last mile of the marathon when my form deteriorated badly I became knock ankled, bad enough to draw blood!

RayCun

Most beginner marathon plans are designed to get someone from low mileage to higher mileage in a short space of time. Eg, the Hal Higdon novice plan goes from 15-10 miles/week to 40 miles/week over 18 weeks. Since the mileage is increasing quite rapidly, faster running is neglected.

You should be increasing your mileage, but you have more time so you can do it slowly, while training for shorter distances. You could spend 3 months in 10k training, and go from 20 to 30 km/week over those 3 months. And then do another 10k block, going from 30 to 45km/week in that block. Then start marathon training with a base of 10k training and a reasonable amount of miles behind you.

El CabaIIo

Huzzah! wrote: »

On a similar theme: Has anyone had the 3D run analysis thing done and is it worth it?

It sounds like it might be better to just go to a physio and get a strength programme done but I thought I'd ask.

A doctor made a comment to me about being knock-kneed and it's kind of still rankling me.

That's the way I used to run when I was saying like an eggbeater. It's seems to be a lot more common in women though as ye have naturally wider hips. It's what skyblue mentioned as well below as when pelvis drops on one side, the knees come much closer together and you can also start to clip your ankles with your shoe. Weak glute medius seems to be a problem in it along with weak obliques. Tightness in the tfl as well can cause it. There's a ton of possible reasons and I think it's called a trendelenburg gait pattern. Sdomething which is common in a lot of people who sit down all day and only started running later in life. This would be whst it looks like:

https://www.google.ie/search?q=trendelenburg+gait&client=ms-android-samsung&source=android-browser&prmd=ivn&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjKraaelrbeAhWFI8AKHSjBDYIQ_AUICSgB&biw=360&bih=564#imgrc=glelQso8SeSlzM

I found these videos way back when I was trying to figure out what was going on of activation drills which might be helpful

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LG-xLi2m5Rc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WptxNrj2gCo

I'm no medical expert though so take my thoughts with a grain of salt as there can be many causes to it.

Kellygirl

Bananaleaf wrote: »

Thanks for the reply.

My running hasn't been hugely consistent but I think I am close to 900kms so far this year. I was doing 100km per month until a bit of PF and then the heatwave and a new puppy (I'm a wimp) stopped me.

However, during the times that I wasn't running I was going to the gym, so there hasn't been a break in my activity.

Up to about a month ago I was getting about 2 or 3 runs in a week and 3 visits to the gym for SandC.

In the past month I've been doing 4 runs per week and 3 days in gym for S&C. The runs have been 2 x 5k, one around 8-10k and a longer one at the weekend. Will be up to 20km tomorrow.

I don't think that 3 days S&C will be sustainable long term, so I aim to reduce that to 1 or 2 days and replace the third day with yoga - trying to cover all bases so as to minimise injury.

I think you might be right about three of them being a drag. Would you recommend that I stick to the 3days S&C, 3 runs for a bit? Until around Feb time? Or should I be doing more than 3 right from the off?

Sorry if my post seems a bit silly - I am a member of an athletics club but I don't want to ask them because I don't want to tell anyone that I'm taking the marathon on just yet. I couldn't really deal with the pressure of being asked about it all the time. I really really don't want to fail in my endeavour and want to do everything I can to succeed.

Edited to add - what sort of training? Mostly just slow enough runs t be honest. At the beginning of the year I was doing speed sessions with club once a week, but I haven't been to club runs since April as times no longer suit at the moment and have been just getting out when I can. So, just running around the town really. Generally the same routes too. Have entered a race each month but haven't had any PBs since I have stopped the speed work. I still get the plans from the club so doing the speed session myself at a later time to the club is an option

I think you need to be doing at least 4 days running a week and have your body used to that so that you can maybe increase to 5 at some stage. Just be careful increasing mileage and ensure you aren’t doing too much too soon - follow the 10% rule and don’t increase any more than that. Same goes for intensity - and not increasing that too fast.

Bananaleaf

Kellygirl wrote: »

I think you need to be doing at least 4 days running a week and have your body used to that so that you can maybe increase to 5 at some stage. Just be careful increasing mileage and ensure you aren’t doing too much too soon - follow the 10% rule and don’t increase any more than that. Same goes for intensity - and not increasing that too fast.

RayCun wrote: »

Most beginner marathon plans are designed to get someone from low mileage to higher mileage in a short space of time. Eg, the Hal Higdon novice plan goes from 15-10 miles/week to 40 miles/week over 18 weeks. Since the mileage is increasing quite rapidly, faster running is neglected.

You should be increasing your mileage, but you have more time so you can do it slowly, while training for shorter distances. You could spend 3 months in 10k training, and go from 20 to 30 km/week over those 3 months. And then do another 10k block, going from 30 to 45km/week in that block. Then start marathon training with a base of 10k training and a reasonable amount of miles behind you.

skyblue46 wrote: »

I'd just add that doing the grads plan and following with the novices plan is a bit like doing your junior cert and then going back to do your entrance exam. It would be a step back.

Thank you all for the great advice.

I will increase to 4 runs per week and instead of doing the three plans will just keep working away on comfortably and gradually increasing my mileage.

Should I be aiming to increase mileage of all 4 runs or is it really just the long run that needs extending?

An example of what I mean is if I am doing 2 5ks a 10k and a 20k, by the time that 20 increases to a 32k, should the distances of the 5s and 10 have increased? Is it worth adding in a day where I run for a set number of minutes rather than kms?

Thank you so much

Huzzah!

N

skyblue46 wrote: »

It could be worse....in the last mile of the marathon when my form deteriorated badly I became knock ankled, bad enough to draw blood!

:eek:

El CabaIIo wrote: »

I'm no medical expert though so take my thoughts with a grain of salt as there can be many causes to it.

I’m not sure how pronounced it is, although he said it after I walked a cross the room, so it must be somewhat. Clipped ankles and the wiggling hips that they mention in the videos sound familiar, so I might give the drills a go or maybe look into further into it in the new year. Thanks.

RayCun

Increase the distance of all your runs. Then reduce the distance but add another day of running

Kellygirl

Bananaleaf wrote: »

Thank you all for the great advice.

I will increase to 4 runs per week and instead of doing the three plans will just keep working away on comfortably and gradually increasing my mileage.

Should I be aiming to increase mileage of all 4 runs or is it really just the long run that needs extending?

An example of what I mean is if I am doing 2 5ks a 10k and a 20k, by the time that 20 increases to a 32k, should the distances of the 5s and 10 have increased? Is it worth adding in a day where I run for a set number of minutes rather than kms?

Thank you so much

You could eventually build up to 2x5 mile runs a week, 8-10 mile run and your long run but that wouldn’t need to be longer than 2-2.5 hours until you go into marathon training. I certainly wouldn’t be going up to 20 miles unless in marathon training.

Once you have increased the distances you could add in a bit of speed work on one of the runs.

eyrie

Is there any form of cross training that won’t make me lose the will to live? And better yet one that doesn’t require a gym? No? Oh right, that’s why we run.

Genuinely though, what do other people do for cross training? I’m starting to accept that it might be another week or two before I can do much running post-DCM so want to minimize the loss in fitness.