Random Running Questions

ariana`

Lazare wrote: »

Q1. Which of these two options offer the best adaptation benefits for someone 5k training?

4x 800, 2x 600 with 60% jog recovery, 8 miles total with warm up & cool down.

Or

5k race, 8 miles total.

Q2. Which option would you choose 8 days out from a target race?

I read somewhere (McMillan I think?) recently that the best session close to a race can be the one you know you can nail, the one that will give you that extra bit of confidence come race day. Thought it was an interesting perspective...

skyblue46

Lazare wrote: »

Q1. Which of these two options offer the best adaptation benefits for someone 5k training?

4x 800, 2x 600 with 60% jog recovery, 8 miles total with warm up & cool down.

Or

5k race, 8 miles total.

Q2. Which option would you choose 8 days out from a target race?

What would the paces be for the session?

I'd agree with E. If you did a 5k race that didn't go well it would eat into confidence with a target race 8 days later.

Lazare

Effort for the session should be between 3 and 5k.

Am leaning towards the session myself but curious to know the difference. It's probably marginal though.

BeepBeep67

A couple of good 5k indicator sessions that I use are:

1) 3 x 1M @ target pace off 3mins and
2) 2 x 50% of 95% of expected race duration @ target pace off 5mins.

I'll do session one 14 - 16 days out and session 2 no closer than 9 days out.
If you can hit those sessions you're close, with the right taper.

Singer

I've done 3x1M and a tune-up 5k (i.e. a very hard parkrun) before target 5ks. I think the tune-up is more valuable, as the mind is more ready for the horrors of the last 2k.

Slow_Runner

For the Bob Heffernan 5k last month I did a 5k time trial 12 days before it (really pushed it), came in 20:11 for the TT so knew I was in the ballpark fitness wise, did 19:39 for the Bob Hefferan. The adrenaline of race day and running in a big group helps.

skyblue46

Lazare wrote: »

Q1. Which of these two options offer the best adaptation benefits for someone 5k training?

4x 800, 2x 600 with 60% jog recovery, 8 miles total with warm up & cool down.

Or

5k race, 8 miles total.

Q2. Which option would you choose 8 days out from a target race?

I meant to ask what are the two races that are 8 days apart? Is Kilcock one of them?

Swashbuckler

Lazare wrote:

Am leaning towards the session myself but curious to know the difference. It's probably marginal though.

I always think a structured session offers a more controlled environment than a race. I'd be going for the session for sure. Races take more out of you always. 5k of continuous effort is more straining than broken intervals of the same effort.

Lazare

skyblue46 wrote: »

I meant to ask what are the two races that are 8 days apart? Is Kilcock one of them?

Yeah, Kilcock is the target. Docklands is the other one.

Lazare

Swashbuckler wrote: »

I always think a structured session offers a more controlled environment than a race. I'd be going for the session for sure. Races take more out of you always. 5k of continuous effort is more straining than broken intervals of the same effort.

Yeah, think I'm gonna opt for the session.

May do the 3x1m mentioned above.

Like the sound of BeepBeep's 2nd one too.

crisco10

Anybody got any recommendations for a 6 to 8 week 10km training plan? ideally ~30 to 40km a week.

Doing the South Dublin 10km at end of July and aiming for sub 40, having just done 18:50 for 5km a fortnight ago.

I know there are a gazillion on the web, but if anyone had any experience with a particular one, it would be great.

Kellygirl

crisco10 wrote: »

Anybody got any recommendations for a 6 to 8 week 10km training plan? ideally ~30 to 40km a week.

Doing the South Dublin 10km at end of July and aiming for sub 40, having just done 18:50 for 5km a fortnight ago.

I know there are a gazillion on the web, but if anyone had any experience with a particular one, it would be great.

The Grads plan lots of us have followed is brilliant. Paces are based on the runfastcoach.com calculator
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1LOkLQ_a9NHWe97yaRkfF6ArFmCHmtf9y1tU0LR7uMr8

Edited to say it’s a 14 week plan but if you have been doing the mileage already and some speed work maybe it would work.

BeepBeep67

Lazare wrote: »

Yeah, think I'm gonna opt for the session.

May do the 3x1m mentioned above.

Like the sound of BeepBeep's 2nd one too.

Just so there is no misinterpretation, I do both sessions, #1 - 14/16 days out followed by #2 - 9 days out.

Spirogyra

Have entered the Irish Runner 10 mile. Today I felt an Achilles tendon strain while walking. With 5 weeks to go, one should really be following a schedule of 8 10,12,10,8 miles the next few weekends shouldn't one? I don't think that's realistic for me now. I seem pretty prone to 'overuse' injuries. I've done 21,22,24 miles the last few weeks, just 8 this week so far as I raced twice last week. Anyway what are my prospects? Will most people there have followed a schedule like that? Or could I just run to complete the distance and enjoy the day out, if I could do a few 7 or 8 or 9 miles maybe in training? Think the race entry might have been a mistake and not sure what to do now. Thanks, S

quick feet

Abandoned/Aborted session
Would you pull the plug on a session where you struggled to hit the required paces or re-adjust the paces and continued on? I aborted today mainly in disgust but now I've calmed down I'm kinda kicking myself..maybe with a longer recovery and slower pace I could of salvaged more from the session..
Fwiw, no sickness just really poor sleep and carp diet lately..

Lazare

quick feet wrote: »

Abandoned/Aborted session
Would you pull the plug on a session where you struggled to hit the required paces or re-adjust the paces and continued on? I aborted today mainly in disgust but now I've calmed down I'm kinda kicking myself..maybe with a longer recovery and slower pace I could of salvaged more from the session..
Fwiw, no sickness just really poor sleep and carp diet lately..

I think we can get too hung up on hitting a pace, am guilty of it.

Had similar in a recent block on a session. Was a little gutted I couldn't hold pace. Gave me big doubts at the time about my target race. I was wrong though.

All sorts of things can affect you during a block and mean you can't hit a certain pace during a session. It doesnt matter though, if the effort is right the gains will be made.


I'd eat a little more than just carp though if I were you

Lazare

crisco10 wrote: »

Anybody got any recommendations for a 6 to 8 week 10km training plan? ideally ~30 to 40km a week.

Doing the South Dublin 10km at end of July and aiming for sub 40, having just done 18:50 for 5km a fortnight ago.

I know there are a gazillion on the web, but if anyone had any experience with a particular one, it would be great.

This is the thread you want.

skyblue46

Spirogyra wrote: »

Have entered the Irish Runner 10 mile. Today I felt an Achilles tendon strain while walking. With 5 weeks to go, one should really be following a schedule of 8 10,12,10,8 miles the next few weekends shouldn't one? I don't think that's realistic for me now. I seem pretty prone to 'overuse' injuries. I've done 21,22,24 miles the last few weeks, just 8 this week so far as I raced twice last week. Anyway what are my prospects? Will most people there have followed a schedule like that? Or could I just run to complete the distance and enjoy the day out, if I could do a few 7 or 8 or 9 miles maybe in training? Think the race entry might have been a mistake and not sure what to do now. Thanks, S

I don't quite understand the idea that you have overuse injuries...21, 22 and 24 mile weeks wouldn't be considered high mileage. Maybe it's running form or unsuitable runners?

skyblue46

quick feet wrote: »

Abandoned/Aborted session
Would you pull the plug on a session where you struggled to hit the required paces or re-adjust the paces and continued on? I aborted today mainly in disgust but now I've calmed down I'm kinda kicking myself..maybe with a longer recovery and slower pace I could of salvaged more from the session..
Fwiw, no sickness just really poor sleep and carp diet lately..

Where were the paces for the session coming from? Were they realistic?

quick feet

skyblue46 wrote: »

Where were the paces for the session coming from? Were they realistic?

Planned 10k pace, S..
Was able to hit it over 5mile last week..
As regards carp diet... it's more lack of appatite

skyblue46

quick feet wrote: »

Planned 10k pace, S..
Was able to hit it over 5mile last week..
As regards carp diet... it's more lack of appatite

Ah right. So it's paces you are well able for. What was the session?

As for the diet...crap is rubbish, carp is a large freshwater fish!

Enduro

quick feet wrote: »

Abandoned/Aborted session
Would you pull the plug on a session where you struggled to hit the required paces or re-adjust the paces and continued on? I aborted today mainly in disgust but now I've calmed down I'm kinda kicking myself..maybe with a longer recovery and slower pace I could of salvaged more from the session..
Fwiw, no sickness just really poor sleep and carp diet lately..

I never know the combination of time and distance for any of my training runs. This is deliberate. I never have a nice training run turned into a negative experience by analysis (during or after) as a result.

I do my training on RPE. An easy run is run at a pace that feels easy. A speed session is run at a pace that that feels fast. The watch tells me what the time of day is if I'm curious.

Some days I'll have scheduled a hard run, but just don't feel up to it so will change to an easy run. Very very occasionally having set out the session will feel so crap that its just going to be unproductive, so I'll bin it and go home, take the rest. I look on this as positive, not a negative as a result of missing some plan (even if the plan was perfect, which is extremely unlikely).

I've read a few articles recently that point to RPE being the best metric for training, not absolute pace, as it happens.

ewc78

Enduro wrote: »

I never know the combination of time and distance for any of my training runs. This is deliberate. I never have a nice training run turned into a negative experience by analysis (during or after) as a result.

I do my training on RPE. An easy run is run at a pace that feels easy. A speed session is run at a pace that that feels fast. The watch tells me what the time of day is if I'm curious.

Some days I'll have scheduled a hard run, but just don't feel up to it so will change to an easy run. Very very occasionally having set out the session will feel so crap that its just going to be unproductive, so I'll bin it and go home, take the rest. I look on this as positive, not a negative as a result of missing some plan (even if the plan was perfect, which is extremely unlikely).

I've read a few articles recently that point to RPE being the best metric for training, not absolute pace, as it happens.

Interesting, and coincidentally this was actually something I was thinking about on my run yesterday before I even saw your post.
I've never been a fan of the theory of when you think you're going too slow go even slower for your long slow runs. Ive often wondered If I'm feeling good on a certain day and not pushing it then should I just let the pace be whatever it is and not worry about whatever the recommend pace or HR zone is for that particular slow run.There are times I feel I could push it a little bit more and still only be a 2 on the RPE scale.
I'd usually run my slow runs at 10min/miles which usually gets me mid zone 2 as per the HR zones.
Yesterday though I was on Zone 3 for much of it, even hitting zone 4 yet I didn't feel like I was. If I was to rate myself on the RPE scale I would have said I was no more than a 2. Now it was fairly warm yesterday when I ran and let's just assume the HR monitor was correct btw.
Sometimes I do feel a bit of a prisoner to my watch and what pace I'm running or HR zone I'm in.I like the idea of listening to my body and being honest with how I feel with regards the RPE scale, so some days a slow run may be 9min mile(just for an example) and others days 10min + it's not something to get worried or hung up about once you are being honest with yourself. Is that basically what your saying or have I got it arseways?

Enduro

ewc78 wrote: »

Sometimes I do feel a bit of a prisoner to my watch and what pace I'm running or HR zone I'm in.I like the idea of listening to my body and being honest with how I feel with regards the RPE scale, so some days a slow run may be 9min mile(just for an example) and others days 10min + it's not something to get worried or hung up about once you are being honest with yourself. Is that basically what your saying or have I got it arseways?

Yeah, that's about it... especially not turning a positive into a negative by over-analysing data.

This is the article that I read recently on the subject. Definitely an interesting read, with some good points about external conditions such as heat etc.

ariana`

Easy pace! I found myself looking up a variety of online calculators/pace charts and there seems to be a huge variation in the pace prescribed as easy.

This is based on a 5k time of 23 mins:

10:26-10:49
8:29-9:30
9:55-10:55
9:25-10:00
9:24
9:14-10:14

Why is there such a big variation between them? I understand most of these calculators accompany particular plans but is there that much difference between plans/training approach to merit the variation seen here - some of these ranges don't even overlap

TheJak01

Enduro wrote: »

I never know the combination of time and distance for any of my training runs. This is deliberate. I never have a nice training run turned into a negative experience by analysis (during or after) as a result.

I do my training on RPE. An easy run is run at a pace that feels easy. A speed session is run at a pace that that feels fast. The watch tells me what the time of day is if I'm curious.

Some days I'll have scheduled a hard run, but just don't feel up to it so will change to an easy run. Very very occasionally having set out the session will feel so crap that its just going to be unproductive, so I'll bin it and go home, take the rest. I look on this as positive, not a negative as a result of missing some plan (even if the plan was perfect, which is extremely unlikely).

I've read a few articles recently that point to RPE being the best metric for training, not absolute pace, as it happens.

Absolute this. I started training like this in the gym and then thought it would be silly not to bring it into running. Given a variety of factors I might hit 5kg less than last week on a lift, but if that's all that's in the tank that day then I have still pushed myself to the maximum and my body has a similar training effect. Same time, if I've gone in and am feeling brilliant then I'll add in an extra rep or go slightly heavier than I had planned, because being overly strict on everything is also suboptimal for progress.

Applying the same to running, if you're doing a fast session, run at the speed that feels fast that day. It might be 20s/km slower than you were expecting, but chances are that some point down the line you'll be on flying form and running at your target pace is going to hold you back. As long as your plan is pretty well defined, those adjustments in pace are going to balance themselves out over the course of a number of weeks or months.

Obviously, it's not something that should be recommended to a beginner, or they'll likely run too quickly or burn out with distance. But for somebody that has a good base and is relatively in touch with themselves as a runner, it's a great way to train. I have a 5km loop from my house that I like to do at a moderately quick pace (for me) every Tuesday. Some days that comes in at 5:15/km, others at 4:50. The main thing for me is that the trend over the months is coming in quicker - I had a 5:30 the other week where I wasn't feeling up to it though. Sure I was miffed when I saw the pace, but the run still had its benefit and the above approach meant I didn't beat myself up about it.

End of the day, use your running watch and your paces/heart rates as a means of keeping yourself honest. Getting annoyed that you didn't hit your pace and ending your session is only going to make you worse, not better. Maybe you feel like crap and a day off will do you good, but overanalysing things won't help you progress.

Swashbuckler

ariana` wrote:

Why is there such a big variation between them? I understand most of these calculators accompany particular plans but is there that much difference between plans/training approach to merit the variation seen here - some of these ranges don't even overlap

Taking the calculators aside, it doesn't really matter. It's what feels easy on any given day. Some Mondays my easy pace could be 7.50/mile after having Sunday as a rest day. Today it was closer to 8.20/mile after a hard session yesterday. If there's one thing you shouldn't worry about its easy pace.

rizzee

Any recommendations for a decent set of Bluetooth earphones? (not airpods or the likes, one with wire around the neck anyway) My watch has the ability to stream music to headset so must start making play lists for long runs and load it with tunes. I have really good Bluetooth headphones but they will be too bulky for long runs.

Alternatively a small mp3 player with maybe a clip to attach to clothes and earphones?

Back to running :

7km Tuesday, 8 km yesterday and heading on a 5km this evening. Really enjoying the slow running (6:00-6:15/km the last 2 evenings) and feeling really good after it with no pain or out of breath. Will get it even slower as the distance increases!

Getting the marathon shoes tomorrow, will be shopping around. Dunshaughlin 10km next Saturday so I'll get to break them in properly!

MonkstownHoop

rizzee wrote: »

Any recommendations for a decent set of Bluetooth earphones? (not airpods or the likes, one with wire around the neck anyway) My watch has the ability to stream music to headset so must start making play lists for long runs and load it with tunes. I have really good Bluetooth headphones but they will be too bulky for long runs.

Alternatively a small mp3 player with maybe a clip to attach to clothes and earphones?

Back to running :

7km Tuesday, 8 km yesterday and heading on a 5km this evening. Really enjoying the slow running (6:00-6:15/km the last 2 evenings) and feeling really good after it with no pain or out of breath. Will get it even slower as the distance increases!

Getting the marathon shoes tomorrow, will be shopping around. Dunshaughlin 10km next Saturday so I'll get to break them in properly!

I got a decent pair of Bluetooth sport earphones in Dunnes for €25, only use them in the gym as I don't run with music but they should do the job

Kellygirl

rizzee wrote: »

Any recommendations for a decent set of Bluetooth earphones? (not airpods or the likes, one with wire around the neck anyway) My watch has the ability to stream music to headset so must start making play lists for long runs and load it with tunes. I have really good Bluetooth headphones but they will be too bulky for long runs.

Alternatively a small mp3 player with maybe a clip to attach to clothes and earphones?

Back to running :

7km Tuesday, 8 km yesterday and heading on a 5km this evening. Really enjoying the slow running (6:00-6:15/km the last 2 evenings) and feeling really good after it with no pain or out of breath. Will get it even slower as the distance increases!

Getting the marathon shoes tomorrow, will be shopping around. Dunshaughlin 10km next Saturday so I'll get to break them in properly!

I use Taotronics - you can get them on Amazon. I find them great and not expensive at all.