Random Running Questions

Enduro

vanderlyle wrote: »

Thanks Enduro for the really useful insights. What are the best ways to train your fat burning engine? Apart from long slow runs?

And how can I tell just how good a fat-burner I am? Short of running the next nearest marathon and seeing at what point do I hit a wall?

My recomendation would to leave as a large a gap as you reasonably can between eating and doing any training. And then to purposefully do your LSRs on empty. And no eating (or sugary drinks) whilst training either. The longer the LSRs, the more gain you're likely to make IMHO.

The other big thing is to try to switch to a more HFLC (high fat low carb) diet (eliinate sugar and processed foods as much as possible), and most importantly to time your carb intake so that you mainly eat carbs either during or shortly after training.

That's just a very brief top level overview. It all takes time (like any training programme does).

ECOLII

Personally I would just issue a word of warning regarding the different between optimal performance approach and optimal long term health approach.

This is more a general thing as opposed to just the previous few comments but Personally I don't tend to be a fan of the low carb idea in isolation for diets of the average person.

Fat adaptation can be fine for performance in short term but to the best of my knowledge no longitudinal studies have be conducted about the long term effects of such an approach on the liver (and indeed glucose secretion from the liver)

I would imagine that the recent trends could very well see and increase in type II diabetes in former athletes/gym enthusiasts/Paleo followers within the next 15-20 years

Ososlo

Anyone know what time were the pacers in the limerick half last year? 1:45 or 1:50?
Thanks

Krusty_Clown

Ososlo wrote: »

Anyone know what time were the pacers in the limerick half last year? 1:45 or 1:50?
Thanks

Looking at the pacing forum:
HM - Sub 2.15hrs - 2.00hrs -1.50 - 1.40 - 1.30

Ososlo

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Looking at the pacing forum:
HM - Sub 2.15hrs - 2.00hrs -1.50 - 1.40 - 1.30

Super many thanks

HelenAnne

RuMan wrote: »

Your pre race approach seems to have worked for me up to half so intend to follow pre marathon.
What do you take during marathons/ ultras ? I'm leaning toward going with what Enduro has suggested and just racing with water. I'm not really keen on gels and have probably become fairly fat adapted (by accident !) at this stage. Marathon is not until April.

I did my marathon training in 2013 on just water and the occasional jelly sweet for the longer long runs, and I felt fine, kept up with all my gel-taking running pals and THOUGHT I'd be ok in the marathon without gels (I was always afraid to try them in case I felt sick). In the marathon I think I did hit the wall -- I started to get slight feelings of dizziness by 18 miles, I was feeling hungry as well as tired by 20, and just ran out of steam.

I think maybe my mistake was not taking pace into account. I think I needed more fuel to run at the faster pace? (My long runs were all run at slower than marathon pace.) So maybe if you're planning on racing without gels it would be a good idea to try a chunk of marathon-paces miles in a long run without gels to get you used to it?

(I'm sure someone else will know if this is good advice or not.)

RayCun

yeah, as you work harder you will burn more glycogen. 20 miles at marathon pace takes much more energy than 20 miles at long run pace

Netwerk Errer

RayCun wrote: »

yeah, as you work harder you will burn more glycogen. 20 miles at marathon pace takes much more energy than 20 miles at long run pace

The overall amount of energy will remain almost identical for a 20 mile run even if you run it at 5 min/mile pace or 10 min/mile pace. The only difference will be glycogen to fat ratio.

Using the ACSM formula for running

VO2 = (0.2v)+ (0.9v+g)+3.5 v = velocity in meters/min and G+grade.

For this example I am going to put grade at 0.

Running at 200m/min would take you 50 min to run a 10K. Running at 225m/min will mean about a 44:30 10K.

VO2 for the 50 min 10k yields 2175 ml of O2 per kg, VO2 for the 44:30 yields a 2156 ml of O2 per kg

1 L of O2 = 5kcals. The difference is 19 ml of O2 per kg. 0.038kcal difference over 10k.

RayCun

I will bow to your superior science skills

but since it does mean burning more glycogen, topping-up is a good idea

Netwerk Errer

RayCun wrote: »

I will bow to your superior science skills

but since it does mean burning more glycogen, topping-up is a good idea

Yep.

barryoneill50

Ososlo wrote: »

Anyone know what time were the pacers in the limerick half last year? 1:45 or 1:50?
Thanks

Sure won't ya be well ahead of them for god sake:D

Ceepo

Netwerk Errer wrote: »

The overall amount of energy will remain almost identical for a 20 mile run even if you run it at 5 min/mile pace or 10 min/mile pace. The only difference will be glycogen to fat ratio.

Using the ACSM formula for running

VO2 = (0.2v)+ (0.9v+g)+3.5 v = velocity in meters/min and G+grade.

For this example I am going to put grade at 0.

Running at 200m/min would take you 50 min to run a 10K. Running at 225m/min will mean about a 44:30 10K.

VO2 for the 50 min 10k yields 2175 ml of O2 per kg, VO2 for the 44:30 yields a 2156 ml of O2 per kg

1 L of O2 = 5kcals. The difference is 19 ml of O2 per kg. 0.038kcal difference over 10k.

Also now to your scientific skills.

Would this increase pro rata with the increase of speed. Ie 40 min 10k, 35 min 10k etc.
ie more glycogen burn for faster speed

Netwerk Errer

Ceepo wrote: »

Also now to your scientific skills.

Would this increase pro rata with the increase of speed. Ie 40 min 10k, 35 min 10k etc.
ie more glycogen burn for faster speed

Yes, it would in terms of calorie usage but even at 30 minute 10k, the difference is negligible, you would actually burn just over 0.1kcal less than at 50 minute 10k. The formula is not a measure of glycogen use though, it's a measure of energy use.

I don't know how to predict glycogen use per unit of energy would be affected with the same paces over a given distance but we know that the faster you go, the more reliant our bodies become on glycogen. This doesn't change the fact though that overall energy use barely changes for an individual at any pace over a given distance which was the point I was making in reply to Ray.

A unit of energy is still a unit of energy whether you are using 50% glycogen or 100% glycogen.

Bulmers74

Netwerk Errer wrote: »

The overall amount of energy will remain almost identical for a 20 mile run even if you run it at 5 min/mile pace or 10 min/mile pace. The only difference will be glycogen to fat ratio.

Using the ACSM formula for running

VO2 = (0.2v)+ (0.9v+g)+3.5 v = velocity in meters/min and G+grade.

For this example I am going to put grade at 0.

Running at 200m/min would take you 50 min to run a 10K. Running at 225m/min will mean about a 44:30 10K.

VO2 for the 50 min 10k yields 2175 ml of O2 per kg, VO2 for the 44:30 yields a 2156 ml of O2 per kg

1 L of O2 = 5kcals. The difference is 19 ml of O2 per kg. 0.038kcal difference over 10k.

My brain hurts

Dubgal72

Bulmers74 wrote: »

My brain hurts

+100000000000000000

Itziger

Folks, a question with no answer, but that's never stopped me before!!

Last Sunday I did the same Trail race (13k) that I did in 2014 and I'm trying to compare times and where I am. Thing is, 2014 was a mud bath and this year was almost the opposite, semi-frozen.

So, 2015 time was 4 mins 25 seconds faster than previous year. I was delighted to be honest. Really enjoyed both runs - it's becoming my favourite race possibly because you get almost all the climbing over with by km 2.5. What I'm wondering is, would most of the time difference be down to the conditions? I think it is myself although I improved from position 19 to 14 this year. Both years I wore non-trail shoes although 2014 would have needed to be 15cm spikes to make any difference.

JohnDozer

Not really important but just wondering, how long can elapse before a run with a large pause is considered separate runs? Let's say running 3 miles to meet a group for a 14 mile LSR, but wait 30 mins for the group. That's hardly considered a 17 miler because the gap is too much, or is it?

Itziger

JohnDozer wrote: »

Not really important but just wondering, how long can elapse before a run with a large pause is considered separate runs? Let's say running 3 miles to meet a group for a 14 mile LSR, but wait 30 mins for the group. That's hardly considered a 17 miler because the gap is too much, or is it?

If you ran around in a smallish circle while waiting for em you'd have a 20 miler done!

JohnDozer

Itziger wrote: »

If you ran around in a smallish circle while waiting for em you'd have a 20 miler done!

Sometimes the blindingly obvious isn't all that apparent! :-)

menoscemo

JohnDozer wrote: »

Not really important but just wondering, how long can elapse before a run with a large pause is considered separate runs? Let's say running 3 miles to meet a group for a 14 mile LSR, but wait 30 mins for the group. That's hardly considered a 17 miler because the gap is too much, or is it?

That's a 17 miler, in fact it's harder than a standard 17 miler with no waits IMO...

donnacha

Any recommendations for exercises to strengthen lower back etc for hilly marathon training? Midway into my connemara program and the miles and hills are starting to cause a few aches and pains. Also not sure if I could be doing any specific foam rolling in that general area.

IvoryTower

can anyone recommend a training log based around 5k races?

Clearlier

IvoryTower wrote: »

can anyone recommend a training log based around 5k races?

Krusty's log last summer, Krusty's log currently.

robinph

Itziger wrote: »

Folks, a question with no answer, but that's never stopped me before!!

Last Sunday I did the same Trail race (13k) that I did in 2014 and I'm trying to compare times and where I am. Thing is, 2014 was a mud bath and this year was almost the opposite, semi-frozen.

So, 2015 time was 4 mins 25 seconds faster than previous year. I was delighted to be honest. Really enjoyed both runs - it's becoming my favourite race possibly because you get almost all the climbing over with by km 2.5. What I'm wondering is, would most of the time difference be down to the conditions? I think it is myself although I improved from position 19 to 14 this year. Both years I wore non-trail shoes although 2014 would have needed to be 15cm spikes to make any difference.

I'd consider position to be a better indicator than time for that kind of race...but you also have to consider that if it is hurricane conditions then less people will turn up on the day, and also at the pointy'ish end where you are you could also have moved up or down a bunch of places due to there being another race on nearby that weekend that other speedy guys went and did instead. If the change in position was from 150-100 then that is a big improvement, not sure if going from 15th-10th is equivalent though due to the lower sample size.

Personally though I'd just ignore all of that and be going w00t!11!!!1! 14th place.

davedanon

Clearlier wrote: »

Krusty's log last summer, Krusty's log currently.

I really don't want to be thinking about crusty logs...

Halloween Jack

I have a quick foam rolling question, I've had great success rolling my calves, to the extent i don't get pain in my shins while running anymore, the first few times i rolled them the pain was intense but dissipated fairly quickly (2-3 days).

Ive noticed my quads have been tight and have attmepted rolling them but the pain is pretty unbearable, i managed normally a couple of times before giving up. A physio i saw before told me they would take longer to loosen up, but I'm a bit of a wuss and never followed through to the extent that the regularity of rolling got rid of the pain. Has anybody been in a similar situation and if so, how long before the quads/itb loosen up?

I realise its a bit of a how long is a piece of string type question, but a general indicator would be nice so i know how long i have to endure;) Many thanks....

JohnDozer

What is a brick run?

RayCun

JohnDozer wrote: »

What is a brick run?

one for the Dark Side

Ososlo

JohnDozer wrote: »

What is a brick run?

Something you or 99% of us here won't ever need to worry about

JohnDozer

Aha... No need to worry is right! Could have just googled that, only occurred to me after. Apologies for the laziness