Random Running Questions

Krusty_Clown

JohnDozer wrote: »

Any recommendations for a good session 12 days before a 10 mile race in the middle of marathon training? Some basic research shows a 10 mile run with 5/6 at race pace the most beneficial. Would this be the consensus?

Sounds like a great session. One that I have found beneficial (but as part of training progression) is 7-8 x 1 mile at tempo pace with 30 seconds rest. Tempo pace will be pretty close to race pace, making it quite race specific, but as mentioned, I've only done this session as part of marathon training progression, where you gradually build-up your time at tempo pace, so this session would be tough if you haven't had similar tempo-pace exposure. But... Your session sounds like a good one.

dintbo

Didn't want to resurrect an old thread so thought I'd ask here. Is the boards strava club open to anyone or is there a procsss?

Krusty_Clown

dintbo wrote: »

Didn't want to resurrect an old thread so thought I'd ask here. Is the boards strava club open to anyone or is there a procsss?

Anyone (who can run a sub 5 minute mile*).

Just kidding*

JohnDozer

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Sounds like a great session. One that I have found beneficial (but as part of training progression) is 7-8 x 1 mile at tempo pace with 30 seconds rest. Tempo pace will be pretty close to race pace, making it quite race specific, but as mentioned, I've only done this session as part of marathon training progression, where you gradually build-up your time at tempo pace, so this session would be tough if you haven't had similar tempo-pace exposure. But... Your session sounds like a good one.

Cheers. Yes, having had a look at what you're proposing, I think I like the look of my own suggestion better. That particular tempo session looks a bit beyond me. I'm still in the school of thought that thinks 3 minutes is very short for recovery! I have been foregoing proper tempo work in favour of steady runs, dropping the odd tempo session in when I can, but not enough to have any confidence about that kind of session. I had done a 3 * 2 miles at 10k pace, off 3 mins recovery 2 weeks ago, and thought there might be something similar I could adapt to 10 mile distance. Probably one for the future, just not right now...

dintbo

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Anyone (who can run a sub 5 minute mile*).

Just kidding*

Cheers! I can manage a 5 min km if that's any good!

NetwerkErrer

JohnDozer wrote: »

Cheers. Yes, having had a look at what you're proposing, I think I like the look of my own suggestion better. That particular tempo session looks a bit beyond me. I'm still in the school of thought that thinks 3 minutes is very short for recovery! I have been foregoing proper tempo work in favour of steady runs, dropping the odd tempo session in when I can, but not enough to have any confidence about that kind of session. I had done a 3 * 2 miles at 10k pace, off 3 mins recovery 2 weeks ago, and thought there might be something similar I could adapt to 10 mile distance. Probably one for the future, just not right now...

There is. 3 minutes recovery might seem like a short time when it comes to 3x2 mile @10k pace but it's an age when it comes to cruise intervals because you don't need to clear the mountain of lactate accumulated at 10k pace. From following your log, I wouldn't recommend you go out and run 6 miles straight at 10m pace, it's overkill and doesn't fit in with your current level of fitness. Even 5 miles would be pushing it because you haven't done many efforts near that intensity.

These cruise interval workouts would be far more beneficial and easier for where you are now heading into a 10 miler.

5x1m @10m pace w/60s recovery

4x2k @ 10m pace w/90s recovery

I would recommend those workouts as perfect for your current ability and for someone who has not done much longer 35-40minute tempo runs. I feel you would get more benefit from those listed than a 5 mile run @10m pace right now. You will be in more control and not half as strained.

JohnDozer

Nice one. Thank you. Spot on as usual. I'll have crack at the 4 * 2k version and see how that goes. Hope the garmin don't explode when I input km's...

ger664

JohnDozer wrote: »

Any recommendations for a good session 12 days before a 10 mile race in the middle of marathon training? Some basic research shows a 10 mile run with 5/6 at race pace the most beneficial. Would this be the consensus?

Should you really be deviating from marathon training plan in the first place ?

Assuming that the 10 Mile race is part of that plan and not the ultimate goal.

pistol_75

I did the Trim 10 mile race as part of Marathon training. 10 days before the race i did the session below.

3 miles w/u

6x1 miles w/.5 mile steady recovery

2 miles c/d

This was a tough session because the recoveries weren't really recoveries as such.

The miles were done around 7:15-7:20 pace and the recoveries around 8:30-8:40.

While it was a tough session it is also a long session which compliments marathon training.

JohnDozer

ger664 wrote: »

Should you really be deviating from marathon training plan in the first place ?

Assuming that the 10 Mile race is part of that plan and not the ultimate goal.

You're probably right. I had entered a run series including the 10k yesterday and the 10 mile in 2 weeks as early as last November, and only decided to do the Limerick Marathon in late January. The mish mash plan I put together then included the races as best I could. It might not be the best idea, and the timing of the races is all wrong, but I do need to race about once a month during marathon training anyway, just for my sanity. Ive gotten much better at getting the long runs done, while working around the races, so less damage this time around. I'm still making mistakes, I know, but I think the only way I'll figure out these things are wrong is to mess it up myself. In saying that, it's been quite some time since I entered a race I didn't PB so confidence is high, which always helps? The short answer to your question is - no, I haven't seen many marathon plans with a 10 mile race 3 weeks out....

PS Are you a volunteer at parkrun Ennis? Ran it yesterday with my sister! Will be back to run it on my own I think, very nice course...

JohnDozer

pistol_75 wrote: »

I did the Trim 10 mile race as part of Marathon training. 10 days before the race i did the session below.

3 miles w/u

6x1 miles w/.5 mile steady recovery

2 miles c/d

This was a tough session because the recoveries weren't really recoveries as such.

The miles were done around 7:15-7:20 pace and the recoveries around 8:30-8:40.

While it was a tough session it is also a long session which compliments marathon training.

Ahm, that does look tough alright. I think I'll be cutting and pasting it for future use, rather than using it now. 14 miles total, with 6 at 10 mile pace, ouch! No pain, no gain I guess...

ger664

JohnDozer wrote: »

PS Are you a volunteer at parkrun Ennis? Ran it yesterday with my sister! Will be back to run it on my own I think, very nice course...

Yes and nice to see someone likes the course its quite tough. We have only had 2 runners under 20 Minutes so far.

I take it the 10 mile in question is Kilnaboy :eek:

JohnDozer

It sure is! Half the appeal is I ran it last year and stand to knock a massive chunk off that time, I had a good day there and quite liked the course, challenging but fair. I must admit, when I saw us all heading off yesterday, I thought by the look of things I could challenge for a placing and was sorely tempted to take off... But didn't! Thankfully. Need to work on controlling the urges :-)

davedanon

Did my last 'long' long run yesterday, 22 miles @ 8.19, and was quite happy with progress. Then someone asked me how things were going, and said: "Do you feel that you're peaking?"

I found that quite hard to answer definitively, so I hummed and hawed a bit. But it got me thinking. Should I be peaking, or rather, should I FEEL that I am? I know training is going reasonably well, I've had few interruptions since the start of the year, and I've hit all my targets. If next week's 18 miler with 14@MP goes well I'll be pretty confident going over to London. But generally, I don't feel like I'm peaking in the weeks leading up to a marathon. The training load is too heavy, and there's no taper for anything bar the marathon itself, so I never go into a lead-up race really fresh and rested. So what do others think? Do people feel like they could run through a brick wall a few weeks before their marathon, or, like me, do they just feel the weight of the training in every run, and trust that the peak effort will be there when needed on race day?

NetwerkErrer

davedanon wrote: »

Did my last 'long' long run yesterday, 22 miles @ 8.19, and was quite happy with progress. Then someone asked me how things were going, and said: "Do you feel that you're peaking?"

I found that quite hard to answer definitively, so I hummed and hawed a bit. But it got me thinking. Should I be peaking, or rather, should I FEEL that I am? I know training is going reasonably well, I've had few interruptions since the start of the year, and I've hit all my targets. If next week's 18 miler with 14@MP goes well I'll be pretty confident going over to London. But generally, I don't feel like I'm peaking in the weeks leading up to a marathon. The training load is too heavy, and there's no taper for anything bar the marathon itself, so I never go into a lead-up race really fresh and rested. So what do others think? Do people feel like they could run through a brick wall a few weeks before their marathon, or, like me, do they just feel the weight of the training in every run, and trust that the peak effort will be there when needed on race day?

You will always feel like crap during marathon training. The taper is where your fitness is gained and you peak. You actually lose fitness while doing a workout or marathon training first and then gain fitness during recovery. It's called the S.A.I.D principle or specific adaptions to imposed demand.

The training lowers fitness levels because it is always just above your body's current level of fitness which causes a minor overtraining(like being tired the day after a workout or towards the end of a marathon cycle) before supercompensation(recovery/rest) takes hold and adapts to the stress you placed on your body thus gaining fitness.

Always remember that the easy days and the taper is where you actually gain fitness and the hard days are where you lose fitness and that's why it is so important to take to have a good mix of hard days and easy days. You want stress but you need recovery. If you don't, that natural minor overtraining effect will turn into full blown overtraining.

The reason some people will peak too early is because they have done too many hard efforts for their ability level and haven't had adequate recovery to keep their fitness going up. You shouldn't feel like death now but you should be pretty tired.

davedanon

NetwerkErrer wrote: »

You will always feel like crap during marathon training. The taper is where your fitness is gained and you peak. You actually lose fitness while doing a workout or marathon training first and then gain fitness during recovery. It's called the S.A.I.D principle or specific adaptions to imposed demand.

The training lowers fitness levels because it is always just above your body's current level of fitness which causes a minor overtraining(like being tired the day after a workout or towards the end of a marathon cycle) before supercompensation(recovery/rest) takes hold and adapts to the stress you placed on your body thus gaining fitness.

Always remember that the easy days and the taper is where you actually gain fitness and the hard days are where you lose fitness and that's why it is so important to take to have a good mix of hard days and easy days. You want stress but you need recovery. If you don't, that natural minor overtraining effect will turn into full blown overtraining.

The reason some people will peak too early is because they have done too many hard efforts for their ability level and haven't had adequate recovery to keep their fitness going up. You shouldn't feel like death now but you should be pretty tired.

Thanks, that's interesting. Makes sense too. I actually feel ok. I haven't had one of those days, where the legs just feel like lead and you have to stop, on this training cycle yet, and there's usually at least one of those in most marathon training regimes, I find. I remember a couple of years back, we were doing a long run out towards Rathcoole, and one of the lads said that he wished the marathon was that day, he felt so good. This guy was about 40, and he was a former youth sprinter-turned amateur footballer who had come back to running and decided to have a crack at a marathon. I think he ran sub-3:15 that first time; but he broke 3 the following year. I reckon he probably peaked prematurely that first time, I remember we did an awful lot of long, overly-hard runs.

Tar.Aldarion

Newb runner, just started really. Did couch to 5k at a jogging pace, grand. Moved on and ran 8 - 8.5k for a week then have done two 10ks this week (very slow, jogging 67 mins). I'm not out of breath or anything in these but I am going slowly as different parts hurt after/during runs. Shins, calves and recently ankles so jogging helps with that. I rest a few days between each run.

What is the best thing to do? Should I keep jogging and my legs will get used to it some time or try and start adding in speed work some how now as they will need to get used to that too? (faster I run worse the pain, jogging is mostly ok painwise with ankles hurting a little for a couple days after a run)

menoscemo

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

Newb runner, just started really. Did couch to 5k at a jogging pace, grand. Moved on and ran 8 - 8.5k for a week then have done two 10ks this week (very slow, jogging 67 mins). I'm not out of breath or anything in these but I am going slowly as different parts hurt after/during runs. Shins, calves and recently ankles so jogging helps with that. I rest a few days between each run.

What is the best thing to do? Should I keep jogging and my legs will get used to it some time or try and start adding in speed work some how now as they will need to get used to that too? (faster I run worse the pain, jogging is mostly ok painwise with ankles hurting a little for a couple days after a run)

Mix up the short and long runs, no need to run your longest run everytime just because you can. If running 3 times per week, consider 2 short runs and 1 longer one. Again don't race the short ones too fast just because you can. Progress will come from consistency and maybe adding on a KM to your long run every 2 weeks.

davedanon

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

Newb runner, just started really. Did couch to 5k at a jogging pace, grand. Moved on and ran 8 - 8.5k for a week then have done two 10ks this week (very slow, jogging 67 mins). I'm not out of breath or anything in these but I am going slowly as different parts hurt after/during runs. Shins, calves and recently ankles so jogging helps with that. I rest a few days between each run.

What is the best thing to do? Should I keep jogging and my legs will get used to it some time or try and start adding in speed work some how now as they will need to get used to that too? (faster I run worse the pain, jogging is mostly ok painwise with ankles hurting a little for a couple days after a run)

The pain you report seems a little unusual. Any issues around that? Age, general condition, athletic history etc etc?

Tar.Aldarion

Lets see, never really ran apart from sport at a younger age, I have flat feet and has osgood-schlatters growing up due to playing too much sport etc. Mostly I'd say it is because I haven't done a tap of exercise in a decade before this and my legs dont like supporting 80kg running yet.

Sacksian

Don't too much too soon, or with too much vigour and you should be fine. You're probably right though, I think weight is a big factor in picking up joint problems when you're getting into running.

annapr

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

Lets see, never really ran apart from sport at a younger age, I have flat feet and has osgood-schlatters growing up due to playing too much sport etc. Mostly I'd say it is because I haven't done a tap of exercise in a decade before this and my legs dont like supporting 80kg running yet.

Sounds like that's your issue... when I first started running 5k, I was convinced that I had a physical disability that meant I was unable to do it because I was in so much pain and could hardly walk for a day after it...

You're testing your muscles in new ways... build it up slowly and it will get better. Overdoing it too early could either 1) lead to an injury or 2) give you so much pain that you'll give up!

dublin runner

Probably asked a few times already but does anyone know anything about the track (concrete?) in Eamonn Ceannt Park?

Desperately looking for a track near Rathgar in Dublin for when I can't make it to the club etc. Looks locked but I did see people there last week.

RayCun

dublin runner wrote: »

Probably asked a few times already but does anyone know anything about the track (concrete?) in Eamonn Ceannt Park?

Desperately looking for a track near Rathgar in Dublin for when I can't make it to the club etc. Looks locked but I did see people there last week.

its a velodrome, Dublin Striders also use it I think, kept locked when not in use

dublin runner

RayCun wrote: »

its a velodrome, Dublin Striders also use it I think, kept locked when not in use

Cheers. Thought that might be the case. Pity!

Ososlo

I've started using my lighter shoes, Brooks st5s on all my runs, recovery to sessions as I just prefer the feel of them. I rotate two pairs. I've no injury issues or niggles and have been wearing them all the time for about a month now.
Does anyone know if this is a good idea or bad or doesn't matter one way or the other? I read it might be good for building ankle strength?
Basically is it a case of the lighter the shoe you can get away with the better?
Thanks

dublin runner

Ososlo wrote: »

I've started using my lighter shoes, Brooks st5s on all my runs, recovery to sessions as I just prefer the feel of them. I rotate two pairs. I've no injury issues or niggles and have been wearing them all the time for about a month now.
Does anyone know if this is a good idea or bad or doesn't matter one way or the other? I read it might be good for building ankle strength?
Basically is it a case of the lighter the shoe you can get away with the better?
Thanks

I personally use light shoes for basic training and racers for sessions and races. I think the lighter the better. The runner that most comfortable and doesn't injure is the one for you. If they suit you, wear them! No point carrying unnecessary weight on the feet for no reason!

A month in a decent period of time to adjust. It's important not to make the jump too quickly.

Ososlo

dublin runner wrote: »

I personally use light shoes for basic training and racers for sessions and races. I think the lighter the better. The runner that most comfortable and doesn't injure is the one for you. If they suit you, wear them! No point carrying unnecessary weight on the feet for no reason!

A month in a decent period of time to adjust. It's important not to make the jump too quickly.

yes that makes sense thanks. The stability Mizunos I usually wore for easy stuff feel so clumpy when I put them on now I can't bear them.

davedanon

Ososlo wrote: »

yes that makes sense thanks. The stability Mizunos I usually wore for easy stuff feel so clumpy when I put them on now I can't bear them.

I made a transition last year from Asics 21xx to lighter, low-drop shoes, starting off with a pair of Saucony A6s which got me a pb in Derry. They're out and out racers though, and wouldn't last long as an everyday shoe, so I got Kinvara 4s and a pair of Mizuno Hitogamis. They were both great, but the Hitos wore out much quicker, so the Kinvaras are my workhorse now. anyway, I had been training in the A6s for a bit before Derry, and enjoying the feel of them. For some reason though, I thought it better one day to 'save' them, and went out in the old Asics. I've never been one for getting too worked up over gear, but My God, the difference. I felt like I was running in treacle, so much so that after the run I put the A6s on and went back out. Instant transformation! All of a sudden I felt like I was prancing along, up on my toes. Afterwards I realised I hadnt been running in 'current' Asics, but a pair of knackered-out old ones, but even so. Now I'm a bit more careful when it comes to shoes. don't hold with all that gait-analysis malarkey still though.

NetwerkErrer

Ososlo wrote: »

I've started using my lighter shoes, Brooks st5s on all my runs, recovery to sessions as I just prefer the feel of them. I rotate two pairs. I've no injury issues or niggles and have been wearing them all the time for about a month now.
Does anyone know if this is a good idea or bad or doesn't matter one way or the other? I read it might be good for building ankle strength?
Basically is it a case of the lighter the shoe you can get away with the better?
Thanks

I probably don't have the greatest knowledge on this because I only wore a traditional trainer for 4 months before ditching them completely for racers. I always felt like I was carrying around 2 bricks on my feet with 0 response and feel in training shoes. But I never ran training runs in a full on racing flat because of the stiffness.

I always went with a lightweight middle of the road racing flat like the Asics Hyperspeed, New balance 1400 and now the Adidas adios boost 2. They are still lightweight but have that little bit of extra cushioning that makes them bearable for easy and long runs for me. Full on flats just feel like hard work to me on easy runs, everything is rock solid. Great for racing and speedwork but not something I can constantly put training miles on.

Just on the ankle and foot strength thing O. Running on grass is excellent for building strength in those areas.