Random Running Questions

Dubgal72

Bungy Girl wrote: »

Is that's the Cool Running 10K plan ? 5M fartlek would include the warm up and cool down. They give a good explanation of how to do the session here. It's fun! And apparently, according to a recent article in the Guardian, you can tell a real runner if you mention fartlek and they don't snigger

That sounds more doable I'm not quite a real runner then yet...Depending on lack of sleep, I find the corner of my mouth twitches but I do hang around with a two year old whose favourite word at the moment is poo

Hannibal Smith

Bungy Girl wrote: »

Is that's the Cool Running 10K plan ? 5M fartlek would include the warm up and cool down. They give a good explanation of how to do the session here. It's fun! And apparently, according to a recent article in the Guardian, you can tell a real runner if you mention fartlek and they don't snigger

Ah!!! It includes warm up and cool down...doh! That sounds better

Seems as though i can take the speed a bit easier than i thought too.

Thanks BG

Dubgal72

Hannibal Smith wrote: »

Morning DG, thanks for the quick response.

No, Ive never done fartlek before. Ive heard the word being thrown about on here, but never had to look into it until now.

I was a bit concerned like you say that 5m of bursts of speed was a bit much for me for now. Ive never done anything like that before, but didnt want to be a wuss either Its the cool runnings half marathon plan. The reason i picked the intermediate one is because the long runs suit me better, but perhaps the speed work is a bit too advanced. Certainly this one seems to be.

A 30 min one would suit me way better I think.

I'd say you'll enjoy fartlek. For your first session, keep it shorter. If there are HM guidelines like for the 10k one, follow them. If not, for your first session of fartlek, it shouldn't matter how structured or unstructured it is, you just want to get a feel for it.

Fartlek means 'speed play' so literally, go out and have fun: push till the next lamp post, ease back and recover, push to the next two lamp posts, ease back and recover, push on to the next three, recover. Then work down: 3, 2, 1. Don't worry about pace for these, go by effort. The shorter bursts are pacier, dial it back for the longer efforts. The pace also depends on what recovery you're giving yourself (it's all continuous running btw). Don't kill yourself on the first session, ok

Good luck and have fun

Hannibal Smith

Dubgal72 wrote: »

I'd say you'll enjoy fartlek. For your first session, keep it shorter. If there are HM guidelines like for the 10k one, follow them. If not, for your first session of fartlek, it shouldn't matter how structured or unstructured it is, you just want to get a feel for it.

Fartlek means 'speed play' so literally, go out and have fun: push till the next lamp post, ease back and recover, push to the next two lamp posts, ease back and recover, push on to the next three, recover. Then work down: 3, 2, 1. Don't worry about pace for these, go by effort. The shorter bursts are pacier, dial it back for the longer efforts. The pace also depends on what recovery you're giving yourself (it's all continuous running btw). Don't kill yourself on the first session, ok

Good luck and have fun

Perfect, i can do that!

Thank you DG and BG.

annapr

Hannibal Smith wrote: »

Perfect, i can do that!

Thank you DG and BG.

Hey HS, nice to meet you at beer run the other night... just to add to the Fartlek advice (as someone who has done all of about 2 fartlek runs ever)... don't think you have to do each interval all out. The best thing about it is that you can alternate hard/medium paces... and take as much recovery as you want. You can also vary the distances... e.g., all out for 100m, HMP for a couple of minutes, or whatever works for you.

I really enjoyed my first one... because it was so varied, and I ended up probably pushing myself more than I should have because it was so much fun. Who woulda thunk?!

libelula

I did a 5k race yesterday, which means I should run easy/recovery for three days, yus?
If I do that, then it means dropping one of my speed/hillwork sessions. I'd rather drop the hills I think, but what if I were to make my LSR (it'll only be 12k) a hilly one and keep the effort low? Or is that just daft and should I scrap the hill session for the week?

Thanks

Itziger

libelula wrote: »

I did a 5k race yesterday, which means I should run easy/recovery for three days, yus?
If I do that, then it means dropping one of my speed/hillwork sessions. I'd rather drop the hills I think, but what if I were to make my LSR (it'll only be 12k) a hilly one and keep the effort low? Or is that just daft and should I scrap the hill session for the week?

Thanks

I don't really know how experienced or fast you are but you'll see people doing 5k races on here all the time and doing hard/normal/long sessions a day or so afterwards. Unless you really buried yourself in the race and have been affected by it I'd say train away as you were planning. When were you supposed to do the first tough session?

libelula

Itziger wrote: »

I don't really know how experienced or fast you are but you'll see people doing 5k races on here all the time and doing hard/normal/long sessions a day or so afterwards. Unless you really buried yourself in the race and have been affected by it I'd say train away as you were planning. When were you supposed to do the first tough session?

I did it in 26:05, been running a few years. My legs are tired today but nothing more than a usual hard session tbh.
I'd normally do a 'steady' run this eve and a speed session tomorrow, so if I make the 'steady' a recovery, and carry on as normal from there depending how I feel tomorrow?

Myles Splitz

libelula wrote: »

I did it in 26:05, been running a few years. My legs are tired today but nothing more than a usual hard session tbh.
I'd normally do a 'steady' run this eve and a speed session tomorrow, so if I make the 'steady' a recovery, and carry on as normal from there depending how I feel tomorrow?

Scrap the session tomorrow.

A race is the ultimate race specific session that you can do and get the right training stimulus from, however, unless you recover properly you are selling these benefits short. No harder than easy for atleast 3 days if you have raced it (even if not all out your Rate of Percieved effort will still be off due to race day adrenaline)

M.J.M.C

Wife is due at the start of Oct - our first baby
Not sure if I should do the marathon this year with the lack of sleep leading up to it. Anyone had a similar experience?
Some days I want to sign up, some days I think i'm crazy
Have done it the last two years.

kit3

M.J.M.C wrote: »

Wife is due at the start of Oct - our first baby
Not sure if I should do the marathon this year with the lack of sleep leading up to it. Anyone had a similar experience?
Some days I want to sign up, some days I think i'm crazy
Have done it the last two years.

If I were you I'd target an earlier marathon (maybe end of August - Longford ?) and clear the decks for when the baby arrives. Nothing can prepare you for the impact of a first baby - the lack of sleep is only a small part. Get the marathon out of the way & enjoy your new arrival - congrats & best of luck

Clearlier

M.J.M.C wrote: »

Wife is due at the start of Oct - our first baby
Not sure if I should do the marathon this year with the lack of sleep leading up to it. Anyone had a similar experience?
Some days I want to sign up, some days I think i'm crazy
Have done it the last two years.

I did my first marathon (Dublin) after my wife having given birth in early August. My training up to the birth had been more or less textbook. My training after that was all over the place. Babies are very demanding of your time and energy. You have to be ready to fit your training in whenever you can get it and not to push too hard. My wife wasn't happy either with the tunnel vision that I developed coming up to the race. I didn't think that the mental preparations I was making would be noticed but they most definitely were!

If you can do an earlier marathon you should. I'd expect to spend the first few months after the birth of a baby just trying to maintain fitness and build a routine that allows you to run.

M.J.M.C

Cheers guys, that's that answered so

demfad

M.J.M.C wrote: »

Wife is due at the start of Oct - our first baby
Not sure if I should do the marathon this year with the lack of sleep leading up to it. Anyone had a similar experience?
Some days I want to sign up, some days I think i'm crazy
Have done it the last two years.

As has been said. Don't do one after, do one before if at all.
I'd also recommend having a plan to keep a little fitness around the birth and the first couple of months after e.g jogging for messages, doing frequent small runs. First race back after why not train for something short as it takes less training time and you'll probably benefit from the speed work anyway.

HelenAnne

Clearlier wrote: »

Vaseline, bodyglide, taping are the 'traditional methods. If you're not already wear a technical top that you keep as dry as possible.

Don't use Vaseline!! I'm a chafe-free zone (thanks to being a woman and wearing a sports bra), but some unnamed men of my acquaintance have wrecked loads of running tops with Vaseline. No one wants big greasy circles on their t-shirts! I've tried everything to get the Vaseline out of running tops -- soaking, stain remover, washing up liquid -- to no avail. Bodyglide seems fine, it just washes off.

HelenAnne

This post over on TFGRs log made me think of a question:

davedanon wrote: »

P&D say 'easy' pace is between 10/15% slower than marathon pace. So for me for instance, my marathon pace prior to London was 7.30 per mile, so my easy pace was anywhere between 8.15 and 8.55

so I moved it over here so as not to derail her log.

Question: because so many boardsies are marathoners, long run pace, easy run pace, race pace etc are usually linked to marathons.

If you're not marathon training, but just training in general and racing distances from 2 miles to half marathon (ie distances that you'll be running over-distance long runs for), should the long runs just be slower than half marathon / ten mile race pace? (I ask because my one, slow, marathon was nearly 9 min miles while my 10-mile race pace is 7.15 ish. So if I'm not doing a marathon I probably don't need to slow my LSRs down to 10 min mile pace, I wouldn't think?)

I definitely think I did my LSRs too fast for the marathon and then maybe didn't have the 'time on my feet' endurance, but I presume that doesn't apply to race distances where you'll be running both further and longer than the race in training?

Clearlier

HelenAnne wrote: »

This post over on TFGRs log made me think of a question:



so I moved it over here so as not to derail her log.

Question: because so many boardsies are marathoners, long run pace, easy run pace, race pace etc are usually linked to marathons.

If you're not marathon training, but just training in general and racing distances from 2 miles to half marathon (ie distances that you'll be running over-distance long runs for), should the long runs just be slower than half marathon / ten mile race pace? (I ask because my one, slow, marathon was nearly 9 min miles while my 10-mile race pace is 7.15 ish. So if I'm not doing a marathon I probably don't need to slow my LSRs down to 10 min mile pace, I wouldn't think?)

I definitely think I did my LSRs too fast for the marathon and then maybe didn't have the 'time on my feet' endurance, but I presume that doesn't apply to race distances where you'll be running both further and longer than the race in training?

Hi HelenAnne,

You'll definitely benefit from time on your feet runs.

Think of all of the different types of runs that you can do, easy, LT, MP, steady, strides, short hills, sprints, hill sprints, long hills, intervals, reps, fast reps and so on. The nature of these runs doesn't change from distance to distance. They all provide a certain training stimulus.

What you change for the different racing distance is the mix and the timing/order of those runs so you might do less of one and more of another.

You mentioned LSR specifically. As with almost all of the different types of runs this has differing interpretations. The 'S' in particular is understood by some to stand for 'steady' and for others to stand for 'slow'. Typically a beginner runs them too fast, an intermediate runs them slowly and an experienced runner is closer to steady.

You'll benefit from doing a regular LSR for all of your racing distances from 2 miles to half marathon, it doesn't have to be every week though if you feel that there are greater weaknesses in your fitness to be addressed. Every second week is absolutely fine.

Myles Splitz

HelenAnne wrote: »

This post over on TFGRs log made me think of a question:



so I moved it over here so as not to derail her log.

Question: because so many boardsies are marathoners, long run pace, easy run pace, race pace etc are usually linked to marathons.

If you're not marathon training, but just training in general and racing distances from 2 miles to half marathon (ie distances that you'll be running over-distance long runs for), should the long runs just be slower than half marathon / ten mile race pace? (I ask because my one, slow, marathon was nearly 9 min miles while my 10-mile race pace is 7.15 ish. So if I'm not doing a marathon I probably don't need to slow my LSRs down to 10 min mile pace, I wouldn't think?)

I definitely think I did my LSRs too fast for the marathon and then maybe didn't have the 'time on my feet' endurance, but I presume that doesn't apply to race distances where you'll be running both further and longer than the race in training?

The purpose of a long run is the same be it a 1500m/5000m runner or a marathoner. (building Capillaries and mitochondrial development)

This can be achieved at roughly 60-70% HR so I would say that the yes paces shouldn't differ.

The difference is how the long run fits into the rest of the week. With shorter distance training the long run is not the primary focus and as such the focus should be on recovery for the main sessions, (your Vo2 max style sessions and RE style sessions) for this reason I would say a 90 min run at easy pace is plenty for getting the benefits required.

You can however turn a long run into a tempo style session every few weeks (50 min @ roughly 8.30-8.45 minute pace)

Hannibal Smith

annapr wrote: »

Hey HS, nice to meet you at beer run the other night... just to add to the Fartlek advice (as someone who has done all of about 2 fartlek runs ever)... don't think you have to do each interval all out. The best thing about it is that you can alternate hard/medium paces... and take as much recovery as you want. You can also vary the distances... e.g., all out for 100m, HMP for a couple of minutes, or whatever works for you.

I really enjoyed my first one... because it was so varied, and I ended up probably pushing myself more than I should have because it was so much fun. Who woulda thunk?!

Im starting to like the sound of this. Im just going to go out...no pressure and have fun. Am i right in thinking that you hit a speed and maintain that speed till you get to your landmark, or is it a continuous increase until you get there. Im overthinking this as per usual i think.

Lovely to meet you too, sorry I didnt get to chat longer, but there were bottles flying in every direction and wanted them cleaned up asap so i could get to the pub Im raging i didnt recognise a few people, but i was wary of the 'dont use your boards handle' rule

HelenAnne

Clearlier wrote: »

You'll benefit from doing a regular LSR for all of your racing distances from 2 miles to half marathon, it doesn't have to be every week though if you feel that there are greater weaknesses in your fitness to be addressed. Every second week is absolutely fine.

Thank you! I already do a LSR (probably more steady than slow) every week -- maybe 10-ish miles if I have a five mile coming up, and longer as the distances go up -- say, for the race series, I'll start with 10-12 for the 5 mile and 10k and then build up to 17 or so by half marathon time).

I do them at what I consider relatively easy effort -- not pushing the pace, chatting to people. I'd do them much slower than 10-mile race pace, for example (maybe 8.40 pace? Or slower).

I'm sure there are many weaknesses in my fitness to be addressed . I like the long runs, though, and am happy to do them -- my question was really 'Am I going slow enough'. I certainly am if the pace is based on ten-milers or half-marathons, or 10k races, but it's still faster than the pace I ran a marathon.

A follow on question: will a weekly 2-mile race take the place of a speed session? I don't want to get injured by trying to do both.

Myles Splitz

HelenAnne wrote: »

A follow on question: will a weekly 2-mile race take the place of a speed session? I don't want to get injured by trying to do both.

Will work as a decent Vo2 max style session.

Depending on your mileage (if you are running 40-50 miles a week) what you can do is 2 mile race, 15 min recovery and 4-6 x 1 min efforts w/ 2 min rec at mile pace to ensure you get the volume however I would only advise this for people with a significant aerobic base otherwise the race will provide enough stimulus.

Clearlier

HelenAnne wrote: »

Thank you! I already do a LSR (probably more steady than slow) every week -- maybe 10-ish miles if I have a five mile coming up, and longer as the distances go up -- say, for the race series, I'll start with 10-12 for the 5 mile and 10k and then build up to 17 or so by half marathon time).

I do them at what I consider relatively easy effort -- not pushing the pace, chatting to people. I'd do them much slower than 10-mile race pace, for example (maybe 8.40 pace? Or slower).

I'm sure there are many weaknesses in my fitness to be addressed . I like the long runs, though, and am happy to do them -- my question was really 'Am I going slow enough'. I certainly am if the pace is based on ten-milers or half-marathons, or 10k races, but it's still faster than the pace I ran a marathon.

A follow on question: will a weekly 2-mile race take the place of a speed session? I don't want to get injured by trying to do both.

Yes to the race replacing a speed session although you might want to consider adding in additional speed work after the race.

You need to base your LSR on your current level of fitness. It should be at the same pace as if you were training for a marathon. If at all possible though I'd ignore the actual pace and focus on effort levels which should be easy (but not sloppy!).

HelenAnne

Myles Splitz wrote: »

Will work as a decent Vo2 max style session.

Depending on your mileage (if you are running 40-50 miles a week) what you can do is 2 mile race, 15 min recovery and 4-6 x 1 min efforts w/ 2 min rec at mile pace to ensure you get the volume however I would only advise this for people with a significant aerobic base otherwise the race will provide enough stimulus.

Thanks very much!

For now, I might just do the race plus warm up and cool down, as am only running 35-38 miles a week. I'm finding that lower weekly mileage is working for me this year, and I haven't been injured at all. That's why I was afraid to do speed and a race every week (we have a 2-mile race a week for the next 10 weeks or so) and risk getting injured.

As I build up my mileage a bit towards autumn, I might add the extra bits you suggest.

Thanks very much.

HelenAnne

Clearlier wrote: »

If at all possible though I'd ignore the actual pace and focus on effort levels which should be easy (but not sloppy!).

Thank you! That's great to hear. I usually don't look at pace on long runs much until afterwards, so I'm glad easy effort is an ok guide.

Thanks!

menoscemo

HelenAnne wrote: »

If you're not marathon training, but just training in general and racing distances from 2 miles to half marathon (ie distances that you'll be running over-distance long runs for), should the long runs just be slower than half marathon / ten mile race pace? (I ask because my one, slow, marathon was nearly 9 min miles while my 10-mile race pace is 7.15 ish. So if I'm not doing a marathon I probably don't need to slow my LSRs down to 10 min mile pace, I wouldn't think?)

You can still have a marathon pace if you are not training for marathons though.

According to Vdot Calculators, your Marathon pace would be about 7:40/mile (based on 10 mile time) IF you were fully trained for a marathon.

So by doing long runs at 8:40 pace you are doing them 1 minute/mile slower than theoretical MP which is surely fine in anyone's book.

It's probably wrong to base MP on one single Marathon that probably didn't go well some years ago and better to base it on a recent result I would assume?

annapr

Clearlier wrote: »

Yes to the race replacing a speed session although you might want to consider adding in additional speed work after the race.

You need to base your LSR on your current level of fitness. It should be at the same pace as if you were training for a marathon. If at all possible though I'd ignore the actual pace and focus on effort levels which should be easy (but not sloppy!).

FWIW, the 'book' ... faster road racing by P&somebody recommends easy pace to be 17-30% slower than HMP... As an alternative to basing it on MP.

annapr

Hannibal Smith wrote: »

Im starting to like the sound of this. Im just going to go out...no pressure and have fun. Am i right in thinking that you hit a speed and maintain that speed till you get to your landmark, or is it a continuous increase until you get there. Im overthinking this as per usual i think.

Lovely to meet you too, sorry I didnt get to chat longer, but there were bottles flying in every direction and wanted them cleaned up asap so i could get to the pub Im raging i didnt recognise a few people, but i was wary of the 'dont use your boards handle' rule

I didn't think about it that much to be honest and I didn't maintain the fastest paces for very long, that's for sure. But yes, you try to maintain to your landmark of choice.

next time, we need to break the rule and just say... who are you on boards?! although there were a few people there who only exist in the real world :cool:

tipping

HelenAnne wrote: »

This post over on TFGRs log made me think of a question:



so I moved it over here so as not to derail her log.

Question: because so many boardsies are marathoners, long run pace, easy run pace, race pace etc are usually linked to marathons.

If you're not marathon training, but just training in general and racing distances from 2 miles to half marathon (ie distances that you'll be running over-distance long runs for), should the long runs just be slower than half marathon / ten mile race pace? (I ask because my one, slow, marathon was nearly 9 min miles while my 10-mile race pace is 7.15 ish. So if I'm not doing a marathon I probably don't need to slow my LSRs down to 10 min mile pace, I wouldn't think?)

I definitely think I did my LSRs too fast for the marathon and then maybe didn't have the 'time on my feet' endurance, but I presume that doesn't apply to race distances where you'll be running both further and longer than the race in training?

Was thinking exactly the same thing over the last few days. Running somewhere between 6.20 and 6.30/m for 5kish distances recently and about 8.30/m for 12 mile lsr. It would be too fast I reckon for MP lsrs but as I'm looking at the shorter stuff and it felt pretty easy I though it was ok. Ran it by the coach in the club who said that it's pretty much bang on and to hold the 30ish miles per week and current paces for a few more weeks and he'll have a look again.

So if time on feet is important should I keep upping the lsrs distance wise or is that 12ish mile (1hr 40 minutes of so) range plenty when the focus is on 5-10k race distances?

Myles Splitz

tipping wrote: »

Was thinking exactly the same thing over the last few days. Running somewhere between 6.20 and 6.30/m for 5kish distances recently and about 8.30/m for 12 mile lsr. It would be too fast I reckon for MP lsrs but as I'm looking at the shorter stuff and it felt pretty easy I though it was ok. Ran it by the coach in the club who said that it's pretty much bang on and to hold the 30ish miles per week and current paces for a few more weeks and he'll have a look again.

So if time on feet is important should I keep upping the lsrs distance wise or is that 12ish mile (1hr 40 minutes of so) range plenty when the focus is on 5-10k race distances?

8.30-8.40 would be in the right ranges for your easy pace based off calculators (personally I would say this is at the top end but generally my own views are a little on the conservative side)

I think the issue people have here is that what they can handle in terms of time on there feet biomechanically rather the cardio output. Simply put your heart probably is able to work at correct levels at this pace it's the musculoskeletal system which is lacking and this is got from the increase of volume in marathon training.

1hr40 is plenty for 5k training as the focus is on endurance and mitochondrial development and capillary building and the optimum levels for this is about 1.30-2hours. As I said before while the long run is very important for these shorter distances it is not the primary focus.

Personally if you are looking to increase volume of training it should be on endurance runs during the week as you long run is a little on the long side in proportion to your overall training volume.

tipping

Myles Splitz wrote: »

8.30-8.40 would be in the right ranges for your easy pace based off calculators (personally I would say this is at the top end but generally my own views are a little on the conservative side)

I think the issue people have here is that what they can handle in terms of time on there feet biomechanically rather the cardio output. Simply put your heart probably is able to work at correct levels at this pace it's the musculoskeletal system which is lacking and this is got from the increase of volume in marathon training.

1hr40 is plenty for 5k training as the focus is on endurance and mitochondrial development and capillary building and the optimum levels for this is about 1.30-2hours. As I said before while the long run is very important for these shorter distances it is not the primary focus.

Personally if you are looking to increase volume of training it should be on endurance runs during the week as you long run is a little on the long side in proportion to your overall training volume.

Yep agree with all of the above. I reckon I'll hold the lsr at about where it is and maybe add another session into my week soon-ish. Mileage increase would probably come from going from 4 to 5 days running. The coach was saying that we might introduce a tempo run in a few weeks time as the 2nd session