Random Running Questions

ger664

For those enquiring about a fartlek. I have a Hilly/undulating trail route (Second loop of Lees road Parkrun) and maintain the pace as constant as possible.

PDCAT

Question:- Tempo pace

I completed a 4 mile Tempo run today (6.55 - 7.00 minute per mile pace).
This was ran at my 10k race pace.
I found this fairly tough in fairness.

I was reading on various websites last night with regard to Tempo pace.
Some stated to run at 10k pace.
Others said it should be 10k pace + 10/20 seconds.

Going on this, i should have ran at somewhere between 7.05 - 7.20 pace.

7.05 is closer to my 10 mile race pace and pretty similiar to my LT run's included in P&D marathon plans.

7.15 - 7.20 is slightly slower than my half marathon pace -would feel slightly slower than what i'd imagine a Tempo run to feel.

Just wondering, What should your Tempo pace be?

ger664

Normal Tempo pace is pace you can run for an hour.

I generally do long Tempos 20 minute+ @ 10 mile pace and shorter ones 20 min > @ 10K or a little of it.

PDCAT

ger664 wrote: »

Normal Tempo pace is pace you can run for an hour.

I generally do long Tempos 20 minute+ @ 10 mile pace and shorter ones 20 min > @ 10K or a little of it.

Thanks Ger. That makes sense.

For me that would mean, <20minutes at 6.55 -7.00.
>20 minutes at 7.05

menoscemo

PDCAT wrote: »

Question:- Tempo pace

I completed a 4 mile Tempo run today (6.55 - 7.00 minute per mile pace).
This was ran at my 10k race pace.
I found this fairly tough in fairness.

I was reading on various websites last night with regard to Tempo pace.
Some stated to run at 10k pace.
Others said it should be 10k pace + 10/20 seconds.

Going on this, i should have ran at somewhere between 7.05 - 7.20 pace.

7.05 is closer to my 10 mile race pace and pretty similiar to my LT run's included in P&D marathon plans.

7.15 - 7.20 is slightly slower than my half marathon pace -would feel slightly slower than what i'd imagine a Tempo run to feel.

Just wondering, What should your Tempo pace be?

There are lots of different varieties of 'tempo'. It could be anything from 10k pace to Marathon pace depending on the definition. You're plan should define it in more detail I think?

Anyhow. 4 miles @ 10k pace is way too much of a session, that's 2/3rd of a race. A peak 10k session would be something like 3 x 2 miles with decent recoveries, but you would build up to that starting with 800m/ 1 mile repeats.

PDCAT

menoscemo wrote: »

There are lots of different varieties of 'tempo'. It could be anything from 10k pace to Marathon pace depending on the definition. You're plan should define it in more detail I think?

Anyhow. 4 miles @ 10k pace is way too much of a session, that's 2/3rd of a race. A peak 10k session would be something like 3 x 2 miles with decent recoveries, but you would build up to that starting with 800m/ 1 mile repeats.

Thanks Meno. I was thinking it was too hard of a session, that's why i asked the question.

Will have to adjust the plan i think....

libelula

Tomorrow I'm starting progressive 5k specific sessions I got off Runners World-
First one is 10 x 1min with 2min recovery.

Would that be 2 mins jog recovery or 2 mins stationary does anyone know?

Ososlo

libelula wrote: »

Tomorrow I'm starting progressive 5k specific sessions I got off Runners World-
First one is 10 x 1min with 2min recovery.

Would that be 2 mins jog recovery or 2 mins stationary does anyone know?

I've done lots of similar 5k interval sessions and have always been told to do a slow jog between reps. Don't worry how slowly, just get your breath back and recover between reps whilst moving forward.

libelula

Ososlo wrote: »

I've done lots of similar 5k interval sessions and have always been told to do a slow jog between reps. Don't worry how slowly, just get your breath back and recover between reps whilst moving forward.

Good schtuff, that's the answer I was hoping for because I'll be tied for time in the morning
Thanks!

Ososlo

libelula wrote: »

Good schtuff, that's the answer I was hoping for because I'll be tied for time in the morning
Thanks!

Best of luck with it. Nice one to start with as you've a decent recovery

adrian522

Doing a long run the day after a race, Are there any rules for how much is too much?

My plan has an 18 Mile run on Sunday, but I'll be racing Dunshaughlin on Saturday, Is this run something I should reduce dramatically or just see how I feel as it goes on?

As I've already done an 18 Miler (that wasn't on the plan) I don't feel under any great pressure to hit this number on Sunday.

Any thoughts?

BeepBeep67

adrian522 wrote: »

Doing a long run the day after a race, Are there any rules for how much is too much?

My plan has an 18 Mile run on Sunday, but I'll be racing Dunshaughlin on Saturday, Is this run something I should reduce dramatically or just see how I feel as it goes on?

As I've already done an 18 Miler (that wasn't on the plan) I don't feel under any great pressure to hit this number on Sunday.

Any thoughts?

What's the more important session, the race or the long run?
A run of >2hrs would be regarded as a quality session and 2 quality sessions b2b could add injury / fatigue risk.

You could play it by ear and see how you feel Sunday.
Or you could consider extending your warm up a little and getting in a total of 15-18 miles on Saturday evening with an extended warm down 3 + 6.2 + 5.8+ and kill 2 birds....

adrian522

Thanks, I guess I'm not sure which is the more important session but I entered the race with the intention of giving it my best shot so I guess I'd prioritise that over the long run. Marathon is still 14 weeks away after this week.

The plan I'm following has plenty of B2B quality days anyway, so I guess I'm just going to play it by ear on Sunday.

A longer warm up and cool down is an option but I'm not sure I'll have time for that on Saturday evening, but I'll see how it goes.

Myles Splitz

adrian522 wrote: »

Doing a long run the day after a race, Are there any rules for how much is too much?

My plan has an 18 Mile run on Sunday, but I'll be racing Dunshaughlin on Saturday, Is this run something I should reduce dramatically or just see how I feel as it goes on?

As I've already done an 18 Miler (that wasn't on the plan) I don't feel under any great pressure to hit this number on Sunday.

Any thoughts?

Any chance you can push it back a day and just run easy day after race?

Other than that I would limit it to a 2 hour run max personally.

Beyond 90 min severely stress the immune system which can be overkill depending on the effort of the race.

Consistency throughout your plan will make the difference not one session.

adrian522

Myles Splitz wrote: »

Any chance you can push it back a day and just run easy day after race?

Other than that I would limit it to a 2 hour run max personally.

Beyond 90 min severely stress the immune system which can be overkill depending on the effort of the race.

Consistency throughout your plan will make the difference not one session.

I could do that yes. I have a rest day on Monday so I could do the long run then, though it would mean a near 3 hour run after work and then a session the next day, which I dont think is any better.

I'm more thinking in terms of running it more slowly than usual and cutting it down to something more manageable like 12-15 miles.

I agree its not going to make much difference in the general scheme of things though the plan does have some long runs scheduled for the day after tune up races later in the plan. This is P&D 18 week plan (55-70) by the way.

ger664

P&D has a couple of these type of session later in the plan. They are quite hard, you could try a loop so that you can bailout if its going sideways. I think 18 miles after a hard 10K will be a bit too much at this stage. Race the race hard give it 24 hours then maybe do 10-12 if you think you are up to it,

Running mad

I'm going to start incorporating some sort of hill training into my runs. I have two good hills for training near my house. One is about 400 metres long not very steep but a gradual climb. The other is 50 metres very steep. Which would be best for training. I did my first half marathon in Cork so for the summer I will be going various races from 5km to 10 miles. Not following any program since the half.

Daisies

Hi guys. Anyone know of somewhere close to Ranelagh with a hill for hill sprints?

tipping

Missing club training this week. Anyone want to suggest a can't mess it up session (for 5k target race). I was thinking fartlek as I don't have any set distances to work off here.

Notwork Error

Running mad wrote: »

I'm going to start incorporating some sort of hill training into my runs. I have two good hills for training near my house. One is about 400 metres long not very steep but a gradual climb. The other is 50 metres very steep. Which would be best for training. I did my first half marathon in Cork so for the summer I will be going various races from 5km to 10 miles. Not following any program since the half.

Both would be good! No need to play favourites with a hill.:)

On the short hill, you could do sprints or bounding. For sprints, Start off with low volume of 4-5 repeats at about 90% of all out with 2-3 mins recovery and build it up to 8-10 reps as the weeks pass by.

Bounding is simply what it says on the tin. Almost like skipping up the hill. These will really help with coordination and getting a solid pushoff.

For the longer hill, something like 4-5 x hill with 3-4 minutes recovery would be a good starting point and again, build it up as the weeks pass by to around 8 reps. Again, I would base this more on effort than pace. The effort should be honest but you should have the feeling you could knock out another rep or two without the pace falling off if you needed after the last rep.

Hope this helps!

Notwork Error

tipping wrote: »

Missing club training this week. Anyone want to suggest a can't mess it up session (for 5k target race). I was thinking fartlek as I don't have any set distances to work off here.

When's the race?

vanderlyle

Daisies wrote: »

Hi guys. Anyone know of somewhere close to Ranelagh with a hill for hill sprints?

Here's an old favourite. Used to cycle up this hill every day after college for two years, but rarely ever ran it. Let me know how it goes

https://goo.gl/lSTGTm

tipping

Notwork Error wrote: »

When's the race?

3 weeks or so.

Notwork Error

tipping wrote: »

3 weeks or so.

I think 5x4 minutes at 5k pace would be a good fit looking at your log(should work out at about a km per rep). I'm presuming your coach had built you up to that 6x800 session so it would be a nice build in my opinion. Keep the recovery time the same as those 800's and you should be good to go.

That's what I'd do anyway. A fartlek could work but I don't run them enough to tell you what works or doesn't in that area. Someone else might have a suggestion on that.

tipping

Notwork Error wrote: »

I think 5x4 minutes at 5k pace would be a good fit looking at your log(should work out at about a km per rep). I'm presuming your coach had built you up to that 6x800 session so it would be a nice build in my opinion. Keep the recovery time the same as those 800's and you should be good to go.

Sounds like a nice one alright. I'll give it a go tomorrow.

spaceylou

Daisies wrote: »

Hi guys. Anyone know of somewhere close to Ranelagh with a hill for hill sprints?

Depends on exactly what you are looking for but heading over towards Harold's Cross/Kimmage there are some short (but steep) hills on grass in Eammon Ceannt Park.

Closer to Ranelagh if you head towards Clonskeagh but turn up Milltown Road just after the Milltown Institute there is a nice long hill up that road.

Firedance

I asked this http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=95965787#post95965787 training question over on my log, am posting here too to open it up for a bit more feedback.

demfad

Firedance wrote: »

I asked this http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=95965787#post95965787 training question over on my log, am posting here too to open it up for a bit more feedback.

Firedance. Had a look at your plan and it looks good. IMO you need to make gains on the endurance side of 5k/10k pace initially. The marathon type progressive club sessions will do this, as will the parkruns. You have some more specific 5k work near the end of the schedule which is good.

Id consider the following:

1. To get speed in the legs to both balance and help your other sessions, you could consider aerobic strides:
Starting at 2 x 5 x 35s fast and relaxed (70s rec or jog back, 3-5 mins jog between sets) building to 3 x 6 x 35s. That session might fit on non parkrun saturdays. It will get speed in the legs for all sessions/races while keeping things mainly aerobic.

2. You can manipulate the parkrun to make it more endurance based for 10k prep: eg on one or two occasion you could run 5-6 miles before the parkrun. pre-fatiguing the legs like that will help 10k endurance (and 5k too).
Also, Id recommend running the parkruns initially as progressions. i.e start the first 1-2k @ a slower effort eg 10k-10mile race effort and slowly progress to finish fast. You'll get most of the benefits of a full on race but not the recovery hangover/time needed.

3. I would consider doing one or two of the long weekend runs faster than easy again for endurance. A comfortable steady pace but maybe preogressing to finish fast. You may have to drop a parkrun on these weekends or run one deliberately easier.

4. Consistancy is most important. If you miss a session, dont try and catch up just run your next session as planned. The buildup of consistant good training is what facilitates a breakthrough.

Youll get a lot of strenght from the endurance work and this will initially bring your times down. The aerobic strides will start tapping into your speed and another result is that the pace of the other sessions should not be the main limiting factor in those sessions which will help.

Firedance

demfad wrote: »

Firedance. Had a look at your plan and it looks good. IMO you need to make gains on the endurance side of 5k/10k pace initially. The marathon type progressive club sessions will do this, as will the parkruns. You have some more specific 5k work near the end of the schedule which is good.

Id consider the following:

1. To get speed in the legs to both balance and help your other sessions, you could consider aerobic strides:
Starting at 2 x 5 x 35s fast and relaxed (70s rec or jog back, 3-5 mins jog between sets) building to 3 x 6 x 35s. That session might fit on non parkrun saturdays. It will get speed in the legs for all sessions/races while keeping things mainly aerobic.

2. You can manipulate the parkrun to make it more endurance based for 10k prep: eg on one or two occasion you could run 5-6 miles before the parkrun. pre-fatiguing the legs like that will help 10k endurance (and 5k too).
Also, Id recommend running the parkruns initially as progressions. i.e start the first 1-2k @ a slower effort eg 10k-10mile race effort and slowly progress to finish fast. You'll get most of the benefits of a full on race but not the recovery hangover/time needed.

3. I would consider doing one or two of the long weekend runs faster than easy again for endurance. A comfortable steady pace but maybe preogressing to finish fast. You may have to drop a parkrun on these weekends or run one deliberately easier.

4. Consistancy is most important. If you miss a session, dont try and catch up just run your next session as planned. The buildup of consistant good training is what facilitates a breakthrough.

Youll get a lot of strenght from the endurance work and this will initially bring your times down. The aerobic strides will start tapping into your speed and another result is that the pace of the other sessions should not be the main limiting factor in those sessions which will help.

thanks for that demfad, I copied your post onto my log and will take another look at the plan bearing that in mind, much appreciated.

demfad

Firedance wrote: »

thanks for that demfad, I copied your post onto my log and will take another look at the plan bearing that in mind, much appreciated.

No problem. One last thing (or two). Run the easy runs easy, by feel. Dont kill yourself in the sessions either. They should be controlled and allow you to build week in week out. If your schedule is like 10 steps to your goal, you want to be making the right size steps to allow you best climb the whole stairs. Not a great metaphor but youll get the picture I guess. The more controlled and sustainable it is, the fitter you will get. It sounds like it doesn't make sense but thats my experience anyway.