Random Running Questions

Louise40

3 sessions a week including 2 track sessions is a lot of sessions. I'd imagine that you'd benefit significantly from dropping that to one and doing more easy running - add in strides a couple of times a week. long but will be worth your time if you want to understand how to train.

Louise40

I ve found the easy miles is what has really set me back. My long runs have gone back over a minute a mile from not doing speed. In the past I really improved from one speed session and a tempo run a week. I just don't have the fitness at the moment to do a tempo run!!

tipping

Louise40 wrote: »

I ve found the easy miles is what has really set me back. My long runs have gone back over a minute a mile from not doing speed. In the past I really improved from one speed session and a tempo run a week. I just don't have the fitness at the moment to do a tempo run!!

Why don't you post a bit more detail on your run lengths and paces that you are doing at the minute?
What is your current mileage and target paces for easy/lsr/tempo etc? What race times have you set recently?
Then do the same thing for when you felt better, training schedule and race times.

Clearlier

Louise40 wrote: »

I ve found the easy miles is what has really set me back. My long runs have gone back over a minute a mile from not doing speed. In the past I really improved from one speed session and a tempo run a week. I just don't have the fitness at the moment to do a tempo run!!

Perhaps you are the exception that makes the rule and certainly your half and 10k pb's match up really well for someone who does low mileage with lots of sessions but it's unlikely. Are your track sessions mostly aerobic or short intervals pushing hard? i.e. what kind of running are you doing on the track?

Hard running helps you to achieve what you're currently capable of doing. Easy miles - lots of them - will change what you're capable of doing. It takes time and patience though.

You asked about time frames in your original post - 8 weeks to see an improvement is about right - I usually see it between the 6th and 7th week but no two people are the same. 12 weeks to get back to where you were sounds a touch optimistic but not ridiculous given that it's not that long since you were at the level that you want to get back to.

BTW - you don't need to go fast on your long runs - what kind of pace are you running them at? (I'd expect something in the region of 9:30 minutes per mile based on your PB's).

Notwork Error

Louise40 wrote: »

I ve found the easy miles is what has really set me back. My long runs have gone back over a minute a mile from not doing speed. In the past I really improved from one speed session and a tempo run a week. I just don't have the fitness at the moment to do a tempo run!!

That seems extremely strange as speed sessions have a small effect on easy and long run fitness. By actually doing only easy miles from January to April, your long run fitness should be better as I am assuming that you never ran much mileage before that. Not having done speedwork for 4 months should make absolutely no difference to your long run pace, It would only really make a difference to actual race paces and speedwork sessions so I find this completely bizarre. They are two completely different energy systems and while speedwork will slightly help you on the long run fitness, easy miles won't kill your long run speed, they will help it and they will eventually help your speedwork and race times.

3 sessions is way too much in a week, it's over 50% of your total weekly mileage. A person who is running 25-30mpw should at max be running only one session a week as they won't have the mileage background to back it up or handle that much intensity. A lot of coaches will tell you not to bother with speedwork at all if you are running that mileage as the gains will be far bigger from working on increasing your easy mileage before even thinking of adding a speed session. There's a perception that speedwork is the be all and end all of long distance running, that couldn't be farther from the truth, easy and long mileage is the real secret and speedwork is only the icing on the cake. That opinion might not be popular but I'm being honest, cut at least two of those speed sessions out completely as they will do more harm than good.

Sorry, I can't help you on figuring out why your long runs are slowing so much but I never heard of that happening from just easy running. Maybe you are stressed, nutrition or are have blood/health issues would be the only thing I could think of that are causing this to happen. I would hope at least that you will take Clearliers and my advice on the speed workout and cut it down a lot, I can say with 99% surity that a lack of speedwork is not causing your long runs to slow. And by running 3 sessions a week, It will only get slower.

Louise40

Thanks a million for your replies. Pre Xmas I was running about 35 mpw. It was a long run of 12-14 miles, 5 miles easy Sunday, gym Monday, track Tuesday 5 miles easy Wednesday, 6 miles thur (4 miles tempo). Due to personal issues I ended up cutting my mileage to about 20/25 miles pw from January. My long run is now 8 miles and it takes me about 1:16 whereas before Xmas it would have taken me 1:08. I figured the 3 speed was too much. I couldn't do Sundays session. I ran 4 miles easy instead. Last wk at track on Tuesday we did 4x6 min 1 min rec. my pace for the 6 mins was 815-830. I feel I m really struggling. The easy miles are so slow and feel an effort even at 950 pace. My fitness really seems to have suffered!

Jotunheim

Louise40 wrote: »

Started a program in early May and am currently in week 6.

I know you've laid out a week of the programme, but it might help throw some light on the matter if you actually say what the programme is and where you go it. There are programmes and there are programmes and you may be on one which offers you some short term gains but not actually be designed to take you where you want to go.
It might also help if you say what you're aiming for. If it's just the half you've mentioned, you've got 12-16 weeks depending on exactly when the race is. That's loads of time and you're far from panic stations. If you have a goal beyond that or you have a target time in mind, then it's back to the question above, the programme needs to be aimed at the needs, not just constructing a good training week for now without a long-term goal.

Notwork Error wrote: »

That seems extremely strange as speed sessions have a small effect on easy and long run fitness. By actually doing only easy miles from January to April, your long run fitness should be better as I am assuming that you never ran much mileage before that. Not having done speedwork for 4 months should make absolutely no difference to your long run pace, It would only really make a difference to actual race paces and speedwork sessions so I find this completely bizarre. They are two completely different energy systems and while speedwork will slightly help you on the long run fitness, easy miles won't kill your long run speed, they will help it and they will eventually help your speedwork and race times

I don't know why you'd find it strange. Her longest mentioned run is a half and I'm sure most runners at that distance or below get benefit from strength or speedwork, possibly even all runners to some degree or other. I went from 1.30+ in the half to 1.16 by dropping mileage and upping the pace. I know for sure I'm not the only one who dropped minutes by going up a gear in training. You can't race fast if you don't train fast.

Notwork Error

Jotunheim wrote: »

I know you've laid out a week of the programme, but it might help throw some light on the matter if you actually say what the programme is and where you go it. There are programmes and there are programmes and you may be on one which offers you some short term gains but not actually be designed to take you where you want to go.
It might also help if you say what you're aiming for. If it's just the half you've mentioned, you've got 12-16 weeks depending on exactly when the race is. That's loads of time and you're far from panic stations. If you have a goal beyond that or you have a target time in mind, then it's back to the question above, the programme needs to be aimed at the needs, not just constructing a good training week for now without a long-term goal.



I don't know why you'd find it strange. Her longest mentioned run is a half and I'm sure most runners at that distance or below get benefit from strength or speedwork, possibly even all runners to some degree or other. I went from 1.30+ in the half to 1.16 by dropping mileage and upping the pace. I know for sure I'm not the only one who dropped minutes by going up a gear in training. You can't race fast if you don't train fast.

I find it strange because it's her long run pace that's falling off from easy miles and not her race pace. By dropping miles, you had already built a stronger base so that wouldn't suprise me. I didn't say speedwork wouldn't help her strength or endurance, I said that at 25 mpw, she would be better off increasing mileage and her aerobic base than running 3 workouts a week. If you are still running the same mileage as before but easy, she shouldn't be losing endurance, would she?

When you base build, do you lose endurance? Not in my experience, you lose sharpness alright but not something that would affect the long run.

Jotunheim

Notwork Error wrote: »

I find it strange because it's her long run pace that's falling off from easy miles and not her race pace..

Wherever the pace is being expressed, training or racing, whatever the session, it's still the same pace that's being expressed and the evidence is there in Louise's experience.

Notwork Error wrote: »

By dropping miles, you had already built a stronger base so that wouldn't suprise me. ..

Actually, I hadn't much of a base at all at that stage of my running, but running long wasn't helping, so I trained faster and down came the time. The same approach is helping me at ultra distances, though obvuiously with scaled up mileage all over.

Notwork Error wrote: »

I didn't say speedwork wouldn't help her strength or endurance,...

Actually, you did.

Notwork Error wrote: »

Not having done speedwork for 4 months should make absolutely no difference to your long run pace,...

You may have expressed it as a negative, but it is what you said. Perhaps you need to lay out what you're saying more clearly, because your first answer suggested that lack of speedwork would make no difference, the corollary being that performing it wouldn't make any difference either.

Notwork Error wrote: »

If you are still running the same mileage as before but easy, she shouldn't be losing endurance, would she?

She didn't say that, she said she's found her pace to have suffered, specifically an extra minute per mile on an 8 mile run, which just happens to be her longest run right now but not necessarily the longest run she is capable of.

Notwork Error

Wherever the pace is being expressed, training or racing, whatever the session, it's still the same pace that's being expressed and the evidence is there in Louise's experience.

You do realise that race pace and long runs use different energy systems right? And that sub-maximal aerobic efforts are the main contributor to endurance on easy and long runs, she has being training in the aerobic zone the for the 4 months so you wouldn't consider it strange that her aerobic runs suffered because of training in the right way to increase it?

Actually, I hadn't much of a base at all at that stage of my running, but running long wasn't helping, so I trained faster and down came the time. The same approach is helping me at ultra distances, though obvuiously with scaled up mileage all over.

You still had a higher mileage base than what you started your new regime. I'm not going to start debating with you over the merits of the high volume v high intensity approach but you can't seriously tell me that running over 50% of weekly training as speedwork is a good idea.


Actually, you did.

Refer to the bolded word and context, more benefit from aerobic running when already low mileage.


You may have expressed it as a negative, but it is what you said. Perhaps you need to lay out what you're saying more clearly, because your first answer suggested that lack of speedwork would make no difference, the corollary being that performing it wouldn't make any difference either.

No, I didn't express it as a negative. I said it wasn't the be all and end end all of the distance running. Icing is hardly a negative metaphor and I never once said it would be of no benefit, you drew that conclusion yourself.



She didn't say that, she said she's found her pace to have suffered, specifically an extra minute per mile on an 8 mile run, which just happens to be her longest run right now but not necessarily the longest run she is capable of.

And does it make a difference, has that 8 mile run got nothing to do with aerobic endurance?

tipping

Louise40 wrote: »

Thanks a million for your replies. Pre Xmas I was running about 35 mpw. It was a long run of 12-14 miles, 5 miles easy Sunday, gym Monday, track Tuesday 5 miles easy Wednesday, 6 miles thur (4 miles tempo). Due to personal issues I ended up cutting my mileage to about 20/25 miles pw from January. My long run is now 8 miles and it takes me about 1:16 whereas before Xmas it would have taken me 1:08. I figured the 3 speed was too much. I couldn't do Sundays session. I ran 4 miles easy instead. Last wk at track on Tuesday we did 4x6 min 1 min rec. my pace for the 6 mins was 815-830. I feel I m really struggling. The easy miles are so slow and feel an effort even at 950 pace. My fitness really seems to have suffered!

If your easy miles are feeling an effort at a much slower pace than what you used to run then surely there's something wrong.

Have you considered a trip to the doc for a general check-up?
Has anything changed for you, how do you feel in general great/fatigued etc?
Has anything else changed, diet, sleep etc??
When you were just doing the easy runs only from January how did you feel at the time, were the easy miles still hard?
Do you like the new program you started and have you followed something similar before with good results? Maybe your new program is too much?
Finally when you couldn't do Sundays session why not (tired/injured etc?)

menoscemo

Louise40 wrote: »

Thanks a million for your replies. Pre Xmas I was running about 35 mpw. It was a long run of 12-14 miles, 5 miles easy Sunday, gym Monday, track Tuesday 5 miles easy Wednesday, 6 miles thur (4 miles tempo). Due to personal issues I ended up cutting my mileage to about 20/25 miles pw from January. My long run is now 8 miles and it takes me about 1:16 whereas before Xmas it would have taken me 1:08. I figured the 3 speed was too much. I couldn't do Sundays session. I ran 4 miles easy instead. Last wk at track on Tuesday we did 4x6 min 1 min rec. my pace for the 6 mins was 815-830. I feel I m really struggling. The easy miles are so slow and feel an effort even at 950 pace. My fitness really seems to have suffered!

So you have gone from running 35 mpw with 2 speed sessions to 20-25 with no speed sessions?

If so it's pretty normal that you pace suffers surely?

Sacksian

@louise40

Honestly, it sounds to me like you're just a little bit tired from ramping back up the intensity. I wouldn't worry about it. Don't force the pace on your long run and you'll find that it'll pick up as you get fitter.

I've done similar low mileage training and I've found that if I only do two sessions + long run a week, then the long run invariably gets quicker (it's a bit of a session) but if I'm doing three sessions + long run, then the long run becomes a longer recovery run, although that does improve over time.

Sacksian

Also, if you're doing 3 sessions a week, I've found (and I've been told similarly) it works when you make one your primary and dial back the others 1% or 2%.

Jotunheim

Notwork Error wrote: »

<post with alternate bolded bits>

I won't drag Louise's question any further off topic by answering you comprehensively. To be honest, it would be impossible to answer you properly at all when you say things like "Icing is hardly a negative metaphor and I never once said it would be of no benefit, you drew that conclusion yourself.", which has nothing to do with anything that was said in any post.

Notwork Error

Sacksian wrote: »

Also, if you're doing 3 sessions a week, I've found (and I've been told similarly) it works when you make one your primary and dial back the others 1% or 2%.

But Sacksian, she's training for long distance. Do you not think three long distance based workouts is too much to begin with even if two are dialled back.

And I'm under the impression that this slowdown came before the intensity was raised, I could be wrong but that's the impression I got. I can see your point with the long run if this started to happen when she raised the intensity.

Didn't spot that she had cutback the mileage for 4 months until Meno posted, that's going to make a difference alright but a minute per mile slowdown is something I'd expect from someone who didn't run at all for months.

Notwork Error

Jotunheim wrote: »

I won't drag Louise's question any further off topic by answering you comprehensively. To be honest, it would be impossible to answer you properly at all when you say things like "Icing is hardly a negative metaphor and I never once said it would be of no benefit, you drew that conclusion yourself.", which has nothing to do with anything that was said in any post.

You never argued a valid counterpoint in the first place. I can only deal with what's put in front of me and that was nothing.

Sacksian

Notwork Error wrote: »

But Sacksian, she's training for long distance. Do you not think three long distance based workouts is too much to begin with even if two are dialled back.

And I'm under the impression that this slowdown came before the intensity was raised, I could be wrong but that's the impression I got. I can see your point with the long run if this started to happen when she raised the intensity.

Didn't spot that she had cutback the mileage for 4 months until Meno posted, that's going to make a difference alright but a minute per mile slowdown is something I'd expect from someone who didn't run at all for months.

I was working on the basis that she was talking about 10k-HM training. Her three sessions could be intervals, tempo and hills (which is the staple training for a lot of clubs). I can see how someone could run a 10k-HM pretty well off those and a long run, even if you'd probably run an even better 5k! But I wouldn't discourage it, if it's enjoyable and has produced the results she's had to date.

Re: Long run pace - At times, I've run long runs closer to 90s a mile slower with three sessions than I did with two sessions. If you let your body dictate how fast an easy long run will be, I find it works out itself what's right.

All I'm saying is that it's not necessarily worrying that her long runs are slower (if I've understood her training correctly) and that there's nothing that crazy about her training at first glance. Just don't overdo the intensity.

Clearlier

Louise40 wrote: »

Thanks a million for your replies. Pre Xmas I was running about 35 mpw. It was a long run of 12-14 miles, 5 miles easy Sunday, gym Monday, track Tuesday 5 miles easy Wednesday, 6 miles thur (4 miles tempo). Due to personal issues I ended up cutting my mileage to about 20/25 miles pw from January. My long run is now 8 miles and it takes me about 1:16 whereas before Xmas it would have taken me 1:08. I figured the 3 speed was too much. I couldn't do Sundays session. I ran 4 miles easy instead. Last wk at track on Tuesday we did 4x6 min 1 min rec. my pace for the 6 mins was 815-830. I feel I m really struggling. The easy miles are so slow and feel an effort even at 950 pace. My fitness really seems to have suffered!

Ok, as meno said you dropped mileage and intensity for perfectly good reasons. That you managed to maintain 25mpw is great but it will inevitably lead to a loss of fitness as your overall training load was significantly reduced.

Your long run pre-Christmas was done at about marathon pace - a great session but on top of 3 other sessions per week it was likely IMO only a matter of time before your burned out.

You need to forget about where you were and start from where you are. Start measuring yourself against your training a few weeks ago rather than your training 6 or 7 months ago.

You will start to see an improvement in your fitness after the 7 or 8 weeks, the gains after that will come relatively slowly after that but they will come.

I'd say that the 9:50 long run pace isn't a million miles off where it should be. I ran plenty of miles at about that pace in a base phase which eventually lead to a 3:24 marathon so don't be worried about the speed.

Are you enjoying running at the moment?

Louise40

Thanks again for your replies and advice.
To clarify pre Xmas I ran 5 days one long run, 2 days easy, one day track session, one day tempo. I improved v quickly doing that and knocked 19 mins off my hm doing that and averaging about 35 mpw. Post Xmas due to personal issues I was unable to commit to my running but ran about 20-25 mpw all easy. I noticed by early April that I was huffing and puffing on my long run. Now I m just trying to get back to where I was. I aiming to do the half in October. I did it in 2014 in 1:46. I loved my running pre Xmas. I felt so fit now it's a struggle. I m huffing and puffing on my 8 mile run. I d love to get back to somewhere near where I was. Hopefully by 12 wks I ll b on the way there!!

Clearlier

Louise40 wrote: »

Thanks again for your replies and advice.
To clarify pre Xmas I ran 5 days one long run, 2 days easy, one day track session, one day tempo. I improved v quickly doing that and knocked 19 mins off my hm doing that and averaging about 35 mpw. Post Xmas due to personal issues I was unable to commit to my running but ran about 20-25 mpw all easy. I noticed by early April that I was huffing and puffing on my long run. Now I m just trying to get back to where I was. I aiming to do the half in October. I did it in 2014 in 1:46. I loved my running pre Xmas. I felt so fit now it's a struggle. I m huffing and puffing on my 8 mile run. I d love to get back to somewhere near where I was. Hopefully by 12 wks I ll b on the way there!!

That sounds much more reasonable! I was a bit worried about someone being advised to do 3 sessions plus a long run each week.

Getting fitter isn't rocket science, you increase your training load, you rest, your body adapts - rinse and repeat. You will get there but you do need patience and you really should start thinking in terms of new pb's I.e. post personal issues pb's. I have my overall pb's, my adult pb's and my pb's since my most recent long term injury. It just helps me to focus on the here and now.

vanderlyle

This is the phoenix park event list:

http://www.phoenixpark.ie/media/Events%202015.pdf

Scheduled for Sat 25th July 2015 is "Paced Miles", with Frank Greally down as the organiser. Anybody know anything about that?

ILikeBananas

I'm planning on running in a 5km race next week. It starts at 8pm. Normally I eat my dinner around 6pm. I assume that that's a terrible idea but what should I do instead so as to not be affected by low energy levels? Should I eat a dinner afterwards or just skip a meal that night?

RonanP77

I'm sure you'll get better advice than this but I'd say have dinner at work at lunch time then something small when you get home.

You like bananas, stick one of them on a peanut butter sandwich.

adrian522

Just eat a slightly larger lunch to tide you over until after the race then have dinner afterwards. I wouldn't eat a big meal prior to the race.

FIFA2004

Looking for a bit of advice! I'm a 25 year old, bit over weight. Finished the couch to 5k programme last week, was running 3.7k at the end in the 30 mins. Have done a few 4.5k and one five k run, but the 5k took me 45 mins, I could do it no bother but really slow!
Was wondering if anyone had any suggestions for improving my speed and distance? Should I keep running 5k at a comfortable pace until the time gets better or go back to interval running or start running longer distances over longer times?
I'm completely new to this so any advice would really be appreciated!

RonanP77

FIFA2004 wrote:

Looking for a bit of advice! I'm a 25 year old, bit over weight. Finished the couch to 5k programme last week, was running 3.7k at the end in the 30 mins. Have done a few 4.5k and one five k run, but the 5k took me 45 mins, I could do it no bother but really slow! Was wondering if anyone had any suggestions for improving my speed and distance? Should I keep running 5k at a comfortable pace until the time gets better or go back to interval running or start running longer distances over longer times? I'm completely new to this so any advice would really be appreciated!

Keep all of your runs at a very easy pace for now, wait until you're perfectly comfortable at 5k, then start making one run a week a little longer, only increasing it by about 500m a week. Don't worry about pace for now, as you get fitter and lose more weight you'll get faster. When you've been doing that for a while pop back and someone will advise you on the next step.

Consider starting a training log so people can watch your progress and give you regular advice.

libelula

+1 on starting a training log. They're invaluable for good solid advice and motivation.

Nodelbmiw

I'm a new poster but have been reading for a while, hope it's ok to post here.

I'm not running that long but Have run a few 10k races in the past year, each one slightly quicker and my fastest I'm May (50 mins). However due to lots on with work & feeling a bit drained I found it hard to run past 3k in the last few weeks

Started up again last week when I got my holidays and feeling much more energetic than I have been. I have run 5k each morning and hoping to keep this up if I can until I go away travelling next week. Is this ok to run 5k each morning- should I be aiming to speed up as week goes on or keep same steady pace?

Hoping to really get back in to it properly in August when I return.

skittles8710

Attention Cork Folk:
If you have the name of a good physio who knows a bit about running injuries etc can you pm me with name/details. I'd really appreciate any suggestions. *

Posted here on the sound advice of Dubgal72