Random Running Questions

runnerholic

Dubgal72 wrote: »

Solo warm up or group warm up pre-race?

I had been doing my pre-race warm up solo and had my routine down pat, including getting into 'the zone'. Lately it's been panning out that I warm up with clubmates. I love the whole team camaraderie and really benefit from training with my clubmates...Just not convinced on the race warm up thing, there has been a bit too much compromise of my routine. Any thoughts on pros and cons of this?

You say you have your pre-race routine down pat DG so I say stick to what is proving successful and don't allow others compromise what works best for you.

HibernianRunner

Hi, just reading Irishrunner magazine, it has an article on VO2 testing by health matters. Anyone here tried this? Would it be worth doing?

Bez Bing

When starting a new training cycle should you train at paces based off your most recent race result or the goal race pace you are training towards or somewhere in between and work up to the goal paces?

vanderlyle

Bez Bing wrote: »

When starting a new training cycle should you train at paces based off your most recent race result or the goal race pace you are training towards or somewhere in between and work up to the goal paces?

I've definitely made the mistake of trying to run at a pace beyond my fitness. For me anyway since the marathon, whatever speed I had has vanished. I know what time I'd like to run say a 5K in, but realistically I'm a long way off my PB. This paragraph from an article on 5K training puts it quite well.

http://www.runnersworld.com/race-training/solving-the-5k-puzzle?nopaging=1

If our goal is a 20:00 5K, we want to run repetitions at 20:00 5K pace right now. We want to skip ahead to the glorious conclusion of our training program. Only one problem: We aren't in shape to run goal pace yet.

Remember, we don't run repetitions to practice running faster. We run repetitions to improve the physiological systems that will allow us to run faster in the future. To accomplish this goal, we train 5K "effort" rather than 5K "pace." As our fitness improves, our pace will improve. But our perceived effort will remain the same, allowing us to become well-versed in the effort level we'll use in the race itself.

ncmc

Are early morning, pre food runs better for training than evening post food runs? I’m not a great morning runner tbh, I find myself quite slow and sluggish, but is it better training for your body - i.e. teaching it to run on empty so to speak - than a faster evening run. I don’t mean tempo runs btw, just mean regular easy or recovery runs.

ultrapercy

ncmc wrote: »

Are early morning, pre food runs better for training than evening post food runs? I’m not a great morning runner tbh, I find myself quite slow and sluggish, but is it better training for your body - i.e. teaching it to run on empty so to speak - than a faster evening run. I don’t mean tempo runs btw, just mean regular easy or recovery runs.

Ya it's a good training method for distance, marathon particularl, training the body to use fat as fuel. Everyone feels sluggish when they start training in the morning but your body will adapt. I wouldn't do all training this way tho and introduce it gradually.

chickey2

ncmc wrote: »

Are early morning, pre food runs better for training than evening post food runs? I’m not a great morning runner tbh, I find myself quite slow and sluggish, but is it better training for your body - i.e. teaching it to run on empty so to speak - than a faster evening run. I don’t mean tempo runs btw, just mean regular easy or recovery runs.

I used to eat before a morning run but since my hours changed and I had to be in earlier I didn't have time. Now I don't have anything and am fine. In fact I prefer it. The longest run I've done first thing was 18 km and I did feel a bit dizzy after that.

Firedance

does anyone run in the Phoenix Park in the evenings since the clocks changed? I'm just wondering if Chesterfield Ave would be safe to run up between 4/7pm?

28064212

Firedance wrote: »

does anyone run in the Phoenix Park in the evenings since the clocks changed? I'm just wondering if Chesterfield Ave would be safe to run up between 4/7pm?

IMO, no. You've 3 options:

• Run on the road - not practical, too much traffic, road not wide enough
• Run on the cycling track - same, too much traffic, too dangerous
• Run on the path - this is set much too far back from the lights, it's extremely difficult to see where you're going, and the surface is very uneven with all the tree roots lifting the tarmac. Might be an option if you have a head-lamp though

Once it gets dark, the PP isn't a great option for running in. North Road is the only one that's even close to well-lit enough. You'd be better off running on the outer perimeter e.g. Blackhorse Avenue or Chapelizod Road

Ososlo

28064212 wrote: »

IMO, no. You've 3 options:

• Run on the road - not practical, too much traffic, road not wide enough
• Run on the cycling track - same, too much traffic, too dangerous
• Run on the path - this is set much too far back from the lights, it's extremely difficult to see where you're going, and the surface is very uneven with all the tree roots lifting the tarmac. Might be an option if you have a head-lamp though

Once it gets dark, the PP isn't a great option for running in. North Road is the only one that's even close to well-lit enough. You'd be better off running on the outer perimeter e.g. Blackhorse Avenue or Chapelizod Road

I'd agree with all of that. As female I wouldn't run on lower path as it's too quiet and dark.
I think you'd be okay up to five. After that it's just not safe on your own.

Firedance

28064212 wrote: »

IMO, no. You've 3 options:

• Run on the road - not practical, too much traffic, road not wide enough
• Run on the cycling track - same, too much traffic, too dangerous
• Run on the path - this is set much too far back from the lights, it's extremely difficult to see where you're going, and the surface is very uneven with all the tree roots lifting the tarmac. Might be an option if you have a head-lamp though

Once it gets dark, the PP isn't a great option for running in. North Road is the only one that's even close to well-lit enough. You'd be better off running on the outer perimeter e.g. Blackhorse Avenue or Chapelizod Road

Ososlo wrote: »

I'd agree with all of that. As female I wouldn't run on lower path as it's too quiet and dark.
I think you'd be okay up to five. After that it's just not safe on your own.

Thanks both, I kind of thought that but was hoping Chesterfield Ave would be ok. Have found an alternative route around the park so will do that instead.

hot buttered scones

I think I've f'd up my recovery from Dublin by doing too much too soon (again). I'll try to be brief here. I ran Cork in June, took about a week off, and went back to training again. First long run (15 miles) was less than 2 weeks after Cork. Felt very tired during my highest mileage weeks of training for Dublin but put this down as being expected due to increased training volume. Got sick (not very - just some upper respiratory issues, no infection) 2 weeks out from Dublin, and picked up an ankle niggle the week of Dublin. First run after Dublin was an easy 10k on the Sunday. Ran 5k easy on the Monday, then 16 miles (got carried away) on Tuesday. Not surprisingly the ankle niggle flared up so I took 3 days off then ran an easy 5k, easy 10k with some pick ups, day off and yesterday did 4 miles easy with a few short hills. Work wise I did an extra night shift a week since Dublin. Basically I just feel exhausted, disinterested and weak tbh. Is this overtraining or just general tiredness from not having taking time to recover? How do I get my recovery back on track? Should I just stop running until I start to feel a bit better (I think I know the answer to this though)? Sorry for the moany post, but I'm just in bad form generally and feeling a bit daft for having getting myself into this position in the first place.

Clearlier

hot buttered scones wrote: »

I think I've f'd up my recovery from Dublin by doing too much too soon (again). I'll try to be brief here. I ran Cork in June, took about a week off, and went back to training again. First long run (15 miles) was less than 2 weeks after Cork. Felt very tired during my highest mileage weeks of training for Dublin but put this down as being expected due to increased training volume. Got sick (not very - just some upper respiratory issues, no infection) 2 weeks out from Dublin, and picked up an ankle niggle the week of Dublin. First run after Dublin was an easy 10k on the Sunday. Ran 5k easy on the Monday, then 16 miles (got carried away) on Tuesday. Not surprisingly the ankle niggle flared up so I took 3 days off then ran an easy 5k, easy 10k with some pick ups, day off and yesterday did 4 miles easy with a few short hills. Work wise I did an extra night shift a week since Dublin. Basically I just feel exhausted, disinterested and weak tbh. Is this overtraining or just general tiredness from not having taking time to recover? How do I get my recovery back on track? Should I just stop running until I start to feel a bit better (I think I know the answer to this though)? Sorry for the moany post, but I'm just in bad form generally and feeling a bit daft for having getting myself into this position in the first place.

Could be a few things but it's pretty obvious that you need to back right off. It's often forgotten that you if you don't recover from training you don't get fitter from it either.

I'd suggest a week or two off if you're feeling grumpy. If you want/need to get out then just 20 mins at a time until you start feeling the mojo coming back then ease gradually back into it.

pgmcpq

One of my RL running friends has pointed me to HADD training. This seems like a good fit for "what ails me".
http://www.angio.net/personal/run/hadd.pdf
I know there are a few around here who have used it, but I have not found simple "how to" convert this to plan.

This is one interpretation compiled from a thread on letsrun. Accurate ?

Questions:

1. Where is this is the time for the HR based tests described (the 1.5 miles @ 120bmp, 130bmp etc, etc)
2. What kind of milage is needed to really benefit from this ?
3. Hills ! Heading into a hilly marathon how to combine hills with HR. I am thinking that you just keep the HR average stable and the fact that the route is hilly is irrelevant ?
4. Is there a phase 2? I have seen some mention of it and hints that it contains some faster stuff but nothing specific.


So the "plan" seems to look like:

Mon: 1 x 60-75 or 2x40 easy
Tue: short warmup + 10 mile sub tempo
Wed: 1 x 60-75 or 2x40 easy
Thu: 1 x 60-75 or 2x40 easy
Fri: short warmup + 10 mi sub tempo
Sat: 1 x 60-75 or 2x40 easy
Sun: 2-3 hrs easy

sub-tempos: 4-5 weeks each at 80-83%, 82-85%, 85-88%, and 87-90% of max heart rate, until heart rate is stable throughout the entire run.

The remaining runs are at 70% of max HR.

For slow twitch runners, Hadd recommended running a 10 x 100 fast (at 800 pace) with 100 jog before the 10 mile tempos.

Every 2-3 weeks, substitute a 10 mile tempo for a 12 x 200 fast (3k-5k pace) with a 200 float recovery at 15-20 seconds slower than the fast 200.

Every 4-6 weeks, take a "down" week and cut everything back 33-50%

Clearlier

pgmcpq wrote: »

One of my RL running friends has pointed me to HADD training. This seems like a good fit for "what ails me".
http://www.angio.net/personal/run/hadd.pdf
I know there are a few around here who have used it, but I have not found simple "how to" convert this to plan.

This is one interpretation compiled from a thread on letsrun. Accurate ?

Questions:

1. Where is this is the time for the HR based tests described (the 1.5 miles @ 120bmp, 130bmp etc, etc)
2. What kind of milage is needed to really benefit from this ?
3. Hills ! Heading into a hilly marathon how to combine hills with HR. I am thinking that you just keep the HR average stable and the fact that the route is hilly is irrelevant ?
4. Is there a phase 2? I have seen some mention of it and hints that it contains some faster stuff but nothing specific.


So the "plan" seems to look like:

Mon: 1 x 60-75 or 2x40 easy
Tue: short warmup + 10 mile sub tempo
Wed: 1 x 60-75 or 2x40 easy
Thu: 1 x 60-75 or 2x40 easy
Fri: short warmup + 10 mi sub tempo
Sat: 1 x 60-75 or 2x40 easy
Sun: 2-3 hrs easy

sub-tempos: 4-5 weeks each at 80-83%, 82-85%, 85-88%, and 87-90% of max heart rate, until heart rate is stable throughout the entire run.

The remaining runs are at 70% of max HR.

For slow twitch runners, Hadd recommended running a 10 x 100 fast (at 800 pace) with 100 jog before the 10 mile tempos.

Every 2-3 weeks, substitute a 10 mile tempo for a 12 x 200 fast (3k-5k pace) with a 200 float recovery at 15-20 seconds slower than the fast 200.

Every 4-6 weeks, take a "down" week and cut everything back 33-50%

IIRC Hadd was a Scottish running coach who lived in Malta until he died a few years ago. He posted prolifically on letsrun under a variety of aliases invariably with excellent advice.

The pdf that you came across is a great story about how to bring someone to the point where they are ready for race specific training and is a good interpretation of how to translate Lydiard style base training into heart rate style training.

I particularly like that the interpretation that you picked up has moved on from the absolute numbers that Hadd used and into %'s which is a much more accurate way of doing things.

Take the principles of what you have but adjust the time/mileage to fit in with what you're currently able for and look for progression to a certain point.

You might currently be running 30-40 mpw. Use these principles to get to 50-60mpw but then stick there for a little while until you get the heart rate steady then do a specific phase possibly with transitional stages and target a race/season. For the following cycle you can use the same base building principles but adjust your training time/mileage upwards.

To answer your questions specifically:

1. Where is this is the time for the HR based tests described (the 1.5 miles @ 120bmp, 130bmp etc, etc)

I think that he mentions every 6 weeks in the pdf. If he doesn't I think that every 6 weeks is often enough.

2. What kind of milage is needed to really benefit from this ?

A bit more than you have been doing, a bit less than you think you could do. The aim is to increase your training load without breaking you.

3. Hills ! Heading into a hilly marathon how to combine hills with HR. I am thinking that you just keep the HR average stable and the fact that the route is hilly is irrelevant ?

Yes, the number of people who surge up hills is astonishing, even effort will serve you better in training and in races. You should include hilly runs in your specific phase if your target is a hilly race but they're worth including in the base phase too if you can IMO.

4. Is there a phase 2? I have seen some mention of it and hints that it contains some faster stuff but nothing specific.

I'm not aware of any particular phase 2 that he wrote about. If he was following the traditional Lydiard model then there would be a couple of following stages whose specific details I can't actually remember at the moment but the idea is to maintain or slightly drop mileage but starting with neuromuscular co-ordination type activities introduce some harder running getting more and more specific to the race (the speed and distance would vary depending on the target race e.g. much shorter reps for an 800m runner than a 10k runner). For the final section you could look at something like Daniels' running formula for ideas about the specific phase. Off the top of my head the last 6 - 8 weeks should cover it.

Feel free to ask more questions. I'm pretty sure that Myles Splitz, Meno and Network Error are fairly familiar with the principles involved and I imagine that many others are too.

Myles Splitz

Clearlier wrote: »

4. Is there a phase 2? I have seen some mention of it and hints that it contains some faster stuff but nothing specific.

I'm not aware of any particular phase 2 that he wrote about. If he was following the traditional Lydiard model then there would be a couple of following stages whose specific details I can't actually remember at the moment but the idea is to maintain or slightly drop mileage but starting with neuromuscular co-ordination type activities introduce some harder running getting more and more specific to the race (the speed and distance would vary depending on the target race e.g. much shorter reps for an 800m runner than a 10k runner). For the final section you could look at something like Daniels' running formula for ideas about the specific phase. Off the top of my head the last 6 - 8 weeks should cover it.

Feel free to ask more questions. I'm pretty sure that Myles Splitz, Meno and Network Error are fairly familiar with the principles involved and I imagine that many others are too.

Unfortunately there is no comprehensive PDF like the 1st phase of training but I think it is often overlooked that there are two parts to the training and while phase one is often followed due to the demographic of those who follow it because it is termed marathon conditioning with reference to an aerobic base.

Here are a few sample sessions from phase two from the man himself

6 x 800m at 104% of 5k pace with everything from equal time recovery (down to) 1:15-1:30 recovery.
5-6 x 1k at 5k pace with 200m jog recovery in 90 secs
3 x 3k at 95-96% of 5k pace with 800m jog recovery
2 x 5k at 93-94% of 5k pace with 800m jog recovery
8k at 92% of 5k pace
16-20k at 88-90% of 5k pace

It must be noted that Hadd often talked about it taking up to 2-3 years before a runner might be able to attempt Phase two.

Funny enough that Lydiard is mentioned above as if you take the two phases and line them up against Lydiard there are striking similarities in the approaches.

There is actually a great discussion buried on LR regarding the methodologies

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?board=1&id=2388392&thread=2375989

runnerholic

I usually do stretching exercises, which I hate doing, for about 20 minutes after a training run. Thing is with the winter weather coming I tend to get cold very quickly after I stop running and start stretching. I can see myself not doing the required amount of stretching after runs when the weather is bad. I tell myself its more important to get in and showered and not catch a cold or other illness by being out in the cold stretching. What do you guys do in this situation?

Myles Splitz

runnerholic wrote: »

I usually do stretching exercises, which I hate doing, for about 20 minutes after a training run. Thing is with the winter weather coming I tend to get cold very quickly after I stop running and start stretching. I can see myself not doing the required amount of stretching after runs when the weather is bad. I tell myself its more important to get in and showered and not catch a cold or other illness by being out in the cold stretching. What do you guys do in this situation?

Can you shower, a bit of light foam rolling to stimulate blood flow and then into the stretching in the comfort of the living room with a bit of TV?

Always find that a 30 minute show can help distract when doing the supplementary stuff which is necessary (either that or http://www.flotrack.org/coverage/252500/video?sort=newest if the motivation is lacking)

Greenmachine

I am wondering about returning to running after a break. I only started running in March of this year but really got a feel for it. I gradually built up distance and weekly mile to the point where my LSR were about half marathon and my weekly mileage was about 35-40 at is't peak. the last two months or so have been difficult getting back into particularly since getting a sinus infection I was never satisfied I was fully clear of it.
Even now I have a dose of bronchitis.

Obviously I can start running again just now idea, how quickly I am likely to lose my fitness and don't want to bump the miles to fast again, but don't want to right back to the beginning of a C25K plan again. Ideally I would like to get myself race ready for a half marathon around April next year at this point with a 10k along the way.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057405488&page=1

Battery Kinzie

I'm doing the Clontarf half marathon this weekend. It's an out and back race along the coast, and the wind will most likely be a tailwind on the way out and a headwind on the way back. If I'm aiming to run about 5:40 min/km splits, how much faster should I be running with the wind on my back compared to a headwind? Obviously it depends on the strength of the wind (will most likely be a decent wind, 5-10m/s), but I'm afraid of one of two things happening. One is that I run too fast with the wind on the way out and struggle coming back in with it in my face, the other is that I don't take advantage of the wind enough on the way out, and leave myself with too much to do coming back in against the wind.

ger664

Battery Kinzie wrote: »

I'm doing the Clontarf half marathon this weekend. It's an out and back race along the coast, and the wind will most likely be a tailwind on the way out and a headwind on the way back. If I'm aiming to run about 5:40 min/km splits, how much faster should I be running with the wind on my back compared to a headwind? Obviously it depends on the strength of the wind (will most likely be a decent wind, 5-10m/s), but I'm afraid of one of two things happening. One is that I run too fast with the wind on the way out and struggle coming back in with it in my face, the other is that I don't take advantage of the wind enough on the way out, and leave myself with too much to do coming back in against the wind.

Thats just sub 2 pace. Normally pacers at this event so tuck in with them and let them worry about the pace out and back

HelenAnne

I know ideally they should be all bang on the same speed, but what's an acceptable time variation between 400m repeats. I'm never sure how wrong I'm getting them!

Itziger

Am I reading this right? "8k at 92% of 5k pace.16-20k at 88-90% of 5k pace"

Isn't the last bit rather hard??? It's from a post above, re HADD training and some of the Phase 2 sessions. Maybe I'm reading it wrong, or I train too soft!

ger664

Itziger wrote: »

Am I reading this right? "8k at 92% of 5k pace.16-20k at 88-90% of 5k pace"

Isn't the last bit rather hard??? It's from a post above, re HADD training and some of the Phase 2 sessions. Maybe I'm reading it wrong, or I train too soft!

Those paces would be pretty close to HMP and MP.

dna_leri

HelenAnne wrote: »

I know ideally they should be all bang on the same speed, but what's an acceptable time variation between 400m repeats. I'm never sure how wrong I'm getting them!

As always with this kind of question "it depends".

It depends on what you are trying to do. Say you are trying to do something like 12x400m at 5K pace. If your 5K pace is 20 mins, then you are doing your 400s in 1:36. On a given day, you might only be in 21 min shape, due to weather, stress, fitness, lack of recovery, etc. On that day your pace could be 1:40 - no big deal. However if you dropped down to 1:45, then you are at 22 mins 5K pace, which is probably closer to actual 10 mile pace and starting to get away from the intent of the session. At that point you need to decide, am I better to drop the whole session and pick it up on a better day or persevere and grind it out.

If on the other hand you were trying to do 4x400 at mile pace, trying to hit 1:30 per lap for 6 min miles, then you would want to keep it within a tighter window - say +/- 2s.

I always try to approach an interval session with a target range for each of the reps, that way you do not beat yourself up if you get the pacing a little wrong but you also know when it's better to can the session.

Itziger

ger664 wrote: »

Those paces would be pretty close to HMP and MP.

Ok, I've just done a bit of arithmetic. My (very rarely raced) 5k pace is 3.34mins/km. So I take 10% of that, 21.4 seconds = 3.55, which as you say, is more or less HM pace.

Does that mean I should be doing 18/20k at HM pace, in training? That must be wrong.

I'd love to hear if that 10% rule applies to others. Add 10% on to your 5k pace and see if you get HM pace. I hadn't really thought about it too much before tbh.

Myles Splitz

Itziger wrote: »

Ok, I've just done a bit of arithmetic. My (very rarely raced) 5k pace is 3.34mins/km. So I take 10% of that, 21.4 seconds = 3.55, which as you say, is more or less HM pace.

Does that mean I should be doing 18/20k at HM pace, in training? That must be wrong.

I'd love to hear if that 10% rule applies to others. Add 10% on to your 5k pace and see if you get HM pace. I hadn't really thought about it too much before tbh.

These sessions are why the phase one is important. the athletes using these sessions will have highly developed aerobically to eliminated huge discrepancies in the longer distances but to take your 5km as an example the figures would be between 3.55-4.00 per km however if you look at race calculators this would probably put your HM pace closer to 3.50/51 (low 1.21s HM) so this would work out at roughly 18 km-20km pace at closer to 1.24 pace.

Its a very tough session no doubt but in the context of the overall training approach it is doable.

TFBubendorfer

Itziger wrote: »

Am I reading this right? "8k at 92% of 5k pace.16-20k at 88-90% of 5k pace"

ger664 wrote: »

Those paces would be pretty close to HMP and MP.

Itziger wrote: »

Does that mean I should be doing 18/20k at HM pace, in training? That must be wrong.

No. The HMP session would be over 8k and the MP session over 18/20k.

HelenAnne

dna_leri wrote: »

As always with this kind of question "it depends".

It depends on what you are trying to do. Say you are trying to do something like 12x400m at 5K pace. If your 5K pace is 20 mins, then you are doing your 400s in 1:36. On a given day, you might only be in 21 min shape, due to weather, stress, fitness, lack of recovery, etc. On that day your pace could be 1:40 - no big deal. However if you dropped down to 1:45, then you are at 22 mins 5K pace, which is probably closer to actual 10 mile pace and starting to get away from the intent of the session. At that point you need to decide, am I better to drop the whole session and pick it up on a better day or persevere and grind it out.

If on the other hand you were trying to do 4x400 at mile pace, trying to hit 1:30 per lap for 6 min miles, then you would want to keep it within a tighter window - say +/- 2s.

I always try to approach an interval session with a target range for each of the reps, that way you do not beat yourself up if you get the pacing a little wrong but you also know when it's better to can the session.

Thanks! We aren't really ever told what pace to do them at in terms of distance, like 5k pace. It's more that we know how many we'll be doing, so the aim is to do them at a pace we can hold for whatever number we're doing. Last night, in that wind, it was 8x400. I was aiming to do all 8 at the same pace, but I think I was a bit all over the place. They were mainly 88-91 secs, but 2 were 93 secs. I can sort of blame the gusting wind, but also I just felt wrecked during one in particular. Next time I'll try to keep them within 2 secs of each other. Thanks!

PS: re canning the session, especially on tough nights like last night, the coach tends to pull people out and get them to skip a rep if their times are really suffering.

Notwork Error

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

No. The HMP session would be over 8k and the MP session over 18/20k.

I had this posted already earlier but deleted ironically enough because KM's and miles confused me and I thought I might be leading people astray. Aarggh!

The long session is not MP though. It's would be aerobic threshold in developed runners(about 2 hour pace) which is faster than MP for everyone. As Myles said above, we have to take into account that someone who was attempting 16-20k @88-90% of 5k pace would have built a strong background of endurance in phase 1. It is not a session a lot of people would be able to just jump into without that background of aerobic strength and it could take a runner months or even years to build up to handling the workout at that pace.

As we build our endurance, the gap between our 5k pace and MP narrows which would make the workout more physiologically manageable because the intensity would drop down to aerobic threshold. The workout would be closer to HMP in aerobically underdeveloped runners and closer to MP but still faster in the aerobically developed athletes thus making it more manageable from a recovery and benefit point of view.

The speed of a runner should also be taken into consideration when deciding the distance of the workout.