Islam & Stoning

theKillerBite

So I had the unfortunate experience of coming across a video of a woman being stoned after been tried in a Islamic court for a ridiculous offence. Anyways it was digusting and barbaric, huge rocks thrown at her head etc.

What is the general concensous amoung muslims in Ireland. Is it taught in the mosques during prayers??


The Great Prophet stoning women:

Book 017, Number 4205:

He (that Ansari) came to Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) and said the woman of Ghamid has given birth to a child. He (the Holy Prophet) said: In that case we shall not stone her and so leave her infant with none to suckle him. One of the Ansar got up and said: Allah's Apostle, let the responsibility of his suckling be upon me. She was then stoned to death.

http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/hadith/muslim/017-smt.php

Book 017, Number 4206:

He (the Holy Prophet) entrusted the child to one of the Muslims and then pronounced punishment. And she was put in a ditch up to her chest and he commanded people and they stoned her.

http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/hadith/muslim/017-smt.php

Tom Dunne

Have you come across similar passages in the Bible?

jay-me

Tom Dunne wrote: »

Have you come across similar passages in the Bible?

Clearly, but this question is for Muslims in the Islam forum not Christians in the Christianity forum..

Tom Dunne

jay-me wrote: »

Clearly, but this question is for Muslims in the Islam forum not Christians in the Christianity forum..

Yes, but the implication is that it is a Muslim holy-book only thing.

jay-me

Tom Dunne wrote: »

Yes, but the implication is that it is a Muslim holy-book only thing.

Eh-no.. The implication is that it is largely a Muslim only thing and the reason for it would be rigid adherence to the Muslim holy-book.

Tom Dunne

jay-me wrote: »

Eh-no.. The implication is that it is largely a Muslim only thing and the reason for it would be rigid adherence to the Muslim holy-book.

But is it that they are justifying int because it is in the holy book? Or is it in the holy book because it was done before the Prophet Mohammed's time and was considered socially acceptable at that time?

theKillerBite

Tom Dunne wrote: »

Have you come across similar passages in the Bible?

Just looked it up and it's a pretty compelling difference between Jesus and Mohammed.

John 7:53-8:11

Then they all went home, 8 1 but Jesus went to the Mount of Olives.

2 At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. 3 The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4 and said to Jesus, “Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5 In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?” 6 They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.

But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7 When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.” 8 Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.

9 At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10 Jesus straightened up and asked her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?”

11 “No one, sir,” she said.

“Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.”

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%207:53-8:11

confusedquark

theKillerBite wrote: »

So I had the unfortunate experience of coming across a video of a woman being stoned after been tried in a Islamic court for a ridiculous offence. Anyways it was digusting and barbaric, huge rocks thrown at her head etc.

What is the general concensous amoung muslims in Ireland. Is it taught in the mosques during prayers??

I can't really comment on what the general consensus of Muslims in Ireland is regarding stoning because I don't think I've ever had that conversation with anyone here. In the same way that most Christians don't go around discussing biblical verses or punishments in their day-to-day encounters, it's not something which ever comes up.

It certainly isn't something which is taught in mosques - I don't know what you think actually goes on, but Friday prayers (the one time in the week where the Imam gives a talk) are mostly about relevant everyday matters, e.g. that we should treat our parents well, be good to our neighbours, be honest people, strive to better ourselves spiritually, avoid sins, be thankful for what we have etc. etc. Similar to what I'd imagine Sunday mass is like...

If I could clarify one thing - "holy book" was mentioned a couple of times above, but the verses quoted by the OP above are not from the Quran (which is the holy book of Islam), but instead from the Hadith. That distinction is important for the reasons mentioned here.

Furthermore, the word "stoning" does not appear a single time in the Quran (as far as I'm aware), and the punishment for fornication/adultery (something which is most often cited as the reason for stoning) is referred to in the Quran -
"The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment." (Quran 24:2).

A couple of translations I came across mention that verse above relates to unmarried women or unmarried men only, so am guessing people who do advocate stoning do so on the basis of that for married people who commit adultery, in conjunction with the Hadiths above. I will add that the latter can only be proved, as per Sharia, if 4 reliable people bear witness of the event or by confession by the adulterer/adulteress four times, so on a practical level, it's not something which is easy to prove - and I wonder how many cases where stoning has been prescribed actually did meet the full criteria.

I've got a very limited knowledge of the bible, but here are some verses I've come across which also seem to be consistent with capital punishment for adultery.

old_aussie

Tom Dunne wrote: »

Have you come across similar passages in the Bible?

It's not about changing the topic to "similar things happen in other religions"

It's about getting the opinions of muslims in Ireland re the stoning to death of a woman who has just given birth

Funny how muslims don't answer the question but attemp to draw the topic away.

So do you have an opinion or just a worn out retort

Tom Dunne

old_aussie wrote: »

Funny how muslims don't answer the question but attemp to draw the topic away.

Are you really resorting to gross generalisations about 1 billion people across numerous continents and countries? And for the record, I am not Muslim.

old_aussie wrote: »

So do you have an opinion or just a worn out retort

I could ask you the same thing.

///3power

As was stated above; God in the Qur'an does not mention stoning. The punishment is flogging for a man or woman guilty of adultery.

To accuse someone of adultery there must also be at least four witnesses to have seen the adultery take place (so unless it's some kind of weird party your at, having four witnesses is nearly impossible).

If you accuse someone of adultery without the minimum of four witnesses, you shall instead be flogged.

Lastly, even if you have the four witnesses, if the accused swears by Allah (Glorified and Exalted be He) that s/he is innocent four times, then they walk free!

It just goes to show you the level of faith people have through Islam, when they would actually die knowing they could "get away with it" (in this life) by simply swearing they're innocent.

There's a narration (a hadith) of something that happened the final prophet (peace be upon him) in his life. A woman became pregnant by a man who wasn't her husband. The husband promptly divorced her. The woman, seeking to cleanse herself from her sins, went to the prophet and asked to be punished to redeem herself. So he explained that the normal punishment in those lands, enacted by the prophets before him was death by stoning. However she insisted. He thought she must be very distressed and delusional, so he sent her away. She came back a few days later and once again asked for punishment. This time the prophet told her to first have the baby, as the baby was innocent of any crime. Months pass, the woman returns to the prophet holding her newborn baby. Once again seeking purification from her sin. The prophet again tried to reason with her, but she insisted. So he sent her away to give suck to the baby until the baby was 18 months old. Maybe he was hoping she would become attached to her baby and not come back.

On the very day that 18 months passed, she returned.

There was no other options. No way out left.

She was stoned.

During the stoning, the prophet noticed one of the men smiling and seemingly enjoying the show. He screamed at the man and became very upset and said something to the effect of "by Allah, that woman had more faith that all of you put together and Allah is well pleased with her".


As for my own opinion (and the opinion of Muslims). Muslims say "we hear and we obey". It's not for us to decide what's what. That's for God and his inspired messengers. We simply worship, serve and obey as best we can.

Personally i don't like the idea. However, there's wisdom behind it. For all other types of execution, there's an executioner with blood on his hands (which is why he used to wear a black hood, to hide). When a community decides that a person should be killed for a crime, if they are stoned it's the entire community who delivers the punishment with no individual taking responsibility ja get me? I still don't like the idea but it makes sense. If i lived in a community where it happened and i was expected to throw a stone, i'd only lightly throw a pebble :P

Thankfully, the thoughts of such a punishment are a great deterrent for anyone considering adultery and so families and family values in Islamic countries are very strong. Cheating is one of the most hurtful things you can do to someone who u have invested total trust in. The divorce rate in the US of A is currently 53%. That means when a sweet young couple are walking down the aisle, there's a higher probability of them parting ways, than of growing old together in a loving family. It's sad. But hey, when a society decides there should be no punishment for the crime of fornication, this is what happens.

uck51js9zml2yt

///3power wrote: »

As was stated above; God in the Qur'an does not mention stoning. The punishment is flogging for a man or woman guilty of adultery.

To accuse someone of adultery there must also be at least four witnesses to have seen the adultery take place (so unless it's some kind of weird party your at, having four witnesses is nearly impossible).

If you accuse someone of adultery without the minimum of four witnesses, you shall instead be flogged.

Lastly, even if you have the four witnesses, if the accused swears by Allah (Glorified and Exalted be He) that s/he is innocent four times, then they walk free!

It just goes to show you the level of faith people have through Islam, when they would actually die knowing they could "get away with it" (in this life) by simply swearing they're innocent.

There's a narration (a hadith) of something that happened the final prophet (peace be upon him) in his life. A woman became pregnant by a man who wasn't her husband. The husband promptly divorced her. The woman, seeking to cleanse herself from her sins, went to the prophet and asked to be punished to redeem herself. So he explained that the normal punishment in those lands, enacted by the prophets before him was death by stoning. However she insisted. He thought she must be very distressed and delusional, so he sent her away. She came back a few days later and once again asked for punishment. This time the prophet told her to first have the baby, as the baby was innocent of any crime. Months pass, the woman returns to the prophet holding her newborn baby. Once again seeking purification from her sin. The prophet again tried to reason with her, but she insisted. So he sent her away to give suck to the baby until the baby was 18 months old. Maybe he was hoping she would become attached to her baby and not come back.

On the very day that 18 months passed, she returned.

There was no other options. No way out left.

She was stoned.

During the stoning, the prophet noticed one of the men smiling and seemingly enjoying the show. He screamed at the man and became very upset and said something to the effect of "by Allah, that woman had more faith that all of you put together and Allah is well pleased with her".


As for my own opinion (and the opinion of Muslims). Muslims say "we hear and we obey". It's not for us to decide what's what. That's for God and his inspired messengers. We simply worship, serve and obey as best we can.

Personally i don't like the idea. However, there's wisdom behind it. For all other types of execution, there's an executioner with blood on his hands (which is why he used to wear a black hood, to hide). When a community decides that a person should be killed for a crime, if they are stoned it's the entire community who delivers the punishment with no individual taking responsibility ja get me? I still don't like the idea but it makes sense. If i lived in a community where it happened and i was expected to throw a stone, i'd only lightly throw a pebble :P

Thankfully, the thoughts of such a punishment are a great deterrent for anyone considering adultery and so families and family values in Islamic countries are very strong. Cheating is one of the most hurtful things you can do to someone who u have invested total trust in. The divorce rate in the US of A is currently 53%. That means when a sweet young couple are walking down the aisle, there's a higher probability of them parting ways, than of growing old together in a loving family. It's sad. But hey, when a society decides there should be no punishment for the crime of fornication, this is what happens.

So how do you explain a woman being sentenced to flogging and stoning for being married and she's not even Muslim.?

It's interesting you've not condemned stoning. Tells me the kind of religion Islam is. Of course it always seems to be the woman whose stoned never the man.

///3power

Brooks Stocky Stone wrote: »

So how do you explain a woman being sentenced to flogging and stoning for being married and she's not even Muslim.?

This is not Islam. This is misguidance and it's definitely wrong.

Brooks Stocky Stone wrote: »

It's interesting you've not condemned stoning. Tells me the kind of religion Islam is. Of course it always seems to be the woman whose stoned never the man.

Who am i to condemn what our Creator has ordained?

Stoning was made a punishment in the religions before Islam. I believe in those religions too (except for the obvious corruptions and lies).

I don't like the idea of someone being killed that way, but i understand why it was that way and i understand the wisdom behind it.

Stoning is much the same as a firing squad. No one person has all the blood and guilt on their hands.

It does always seem to be women, maybe that's because the media will only tell you about the women?

uck51js9zml2yt

What's the wisdom?

Interesting how in one breath you say it's a misinterpretation and on the other it's ok.

///3power

Did u not read my post that you quoted?


In the one breath i was referring to two separate things.

Mark Hamill

///3power wrote: »

Stoning was made a punishment in the religions before Islam. I believe in those religions too (except for the obvious corruptions and lies).

How do you know that stoning isn't a corruption and lie?

///3power wrote: »

I don't like the idea of someone being killed that way, but i understand why it was that way and i understand the wisdom behind it.

Explain why it was that way and the wisdom behind it.

///3power

read

Mark Hamill

///3power wrote: »

read

?