Irish Water Discussion {MERGE}

Froggy7

Hello all, we are a small group of independent residents who are currently protesting against the installation of the water meters, all for various reasons that we won’t go into for the moment. Here are our questions, which we are also sending to Irish Water, Deputies in the Dail and the Gardai Siochana. It would be great if any of you with a bit of legal knowledge could help us with some answers, where possible:


1. What article of law defines us, residents, as being in a legally binding contract with Irish Water?
2. What does constitute an unlawful obstruction of work in the conduct of our protests? In what measure are we within our right to demonstrate/protest in front of our homes?
3. Is Irish Water planning on charging us for the installation of the smart meters? If so, how much? Does this include the price of the meter itself? If not, how much is Irish Water planning to charge for the smart-meter itself?
4. What is Irish Water’s policy as regards people who have stopped or delayed the installation of smart meters? Is Irish Water looking at imposing fines or financial penalties on these and if so, how much and on what grounds?
5. Is it illegal to remove the smart meter from our homes ourselves?
6. Is it our right to request the removal of the smart-meter if we genuinely believe that it constitutes a health threat to the people in our homes?
7. Can Irish Water officially guarantee the safety of the smart-meters? If not, has there been provision made for an alternative metering system?


Please state article number and wording in all answers relative to law.

Thank you very much for your help!

Pro Hoc Vice

Froggy7 wrote: »

Hello all, we are a small group of independent residents who are currently protesting against the installation of the water meters, all for various reasons that we won’t go into for the moment. Here are our questions, which we are also sending to Irish Water, Deputies in the Dail and the Gardai Siochana. It would be great if any of you with a bit of legal knowledge could help us with some answers, where possible:


1. What article of law defines us, residents, as being in a legally binding contract with Irish Water?
2. What does constitute an unlawful obstruction of work in the conduct of our protests? In what measure are we within our right to demonstrate/protest in front of our homes?
3. Is Irish Water planning on charging us for the installation of the smart meters? If so, how much? Does this include the price of the meter itself? If not, how much is Irish Water planning to charge for the smart-meter itself?
4. What is Irish Water’s policy as regards people who have stopped or delayed the installation of smart meters? Is Irish Water looking at imposing fines or financial penalties on these and if so, how much and on what grounds?
5. Is it illegal to remove the smart meter from our homes ourselves?
6. Is it our right to request the removal of the smart-meter if we genuinely believe that it constitutes a health threat to the people in our homes?
7. Can Irish Water officially guarantee the safety of the smart-meters? If not, has there been provision made for an alternative metering system?


Please state article number and wording in all answers relative to law.

Thank you very much for your help!

Engage a professional who would gladly tell ye all you want to know. Also a expert on water meters would be able to provide any information on them. The giving of advice is not allowed on site. As your questions are so fact specific any answer would have to be advice.

Wile E. Coyote

On point 6 and 7, what makes you think the meters aren't safe or that they pose a risk to you or your family?

bumper234

On point 5 i believe the meters will not be on your property but on the public pavement so removing them could be criminal damage or even theft.

Little CuChulainn

Froggy7 wrote: »

1. What article of law defines us, residents, as being in a legally binding contract with Irish Water?

This sounds like nonsense. Why would the law define you as being in a contract?

Froggy7 wrote: »

2. What does constitute an unlawful obstruction of work in the conduct of our protests? In what measure are we within our right to demonstrate/protest in front of our homes?

Obstructing the flow of traffic, vehicular or pedestrian, in a public place is an offence. There are some other laws that may apply depending on the nature of the protest.

Froggy7 wrote: »

3. Is Irish Water planning on charging us for the installation of the smart meters? If so, how much? Does this include the price of the meter itself? If not, how much is Irish Water planning to charge for the smart-meter itself?

I don't think there has been any official word on this.

Froggy7 wrote: »

4. What is Irish Water’s policy as regards people who have stopped or delayed the installation of smart meters? Is Irish Water looking at imposing fines or financial penalties on these and if so, how much and on what grounds?

They will be billed on the basis of estimated usage. The likely method will be to take the total usage for an area, subtract the metered usage and divide the remainder among the unmetered users. Probably using the number of householders as a weighting.

Froggy7 wrote: »

5. Is it illegal to remove the smart meter from our homes ourselves?

It won't be in your home and it is not your property. It will likely constitute criminal damage and theft.

Froggy7 wrote: »

6. Is it our right to request the removal of the smart-meter if we genuinely believe that it constitutes a health threat to the people in our homes?

On what basis?

Froggy7 wrote: »

7. Can Irish Water officially guarantee the safety of the smart-meters? If not, has there been provision made for an alternative metering system?

Again, on what basis would it be unsafe?

Froggy7 wrote: »

Please state article number and wording in all answers relative to law.

Please feel free to hire a solicitor to do your leg work.

trellheim

IANAL and cannot advise you on the legality or otherwise of any act.

With that said please read in full the Water Services Act 2007 and Water Services Act 2013.;

Bepolite

In relation to point 1. Do you propose to disconnect the mains supply and source your water from somewhere else? Do you intend to disconnect yourself from the main sewer and use septic tanks?

TeaBagMania

Wile E. Coyote wrote: »

On point 6 and 7, what makes you think the meters aren't safe or that they pose a risk to you or your family?

If lead based solder is used during manufacture or installation it could pose a risk.

the_syco

TeaBagMania wrote: »

If lead based solder is used during manufacture or installation it could pose a risk.

If you tamper with the device, you'll have to then prove that you didn't tamper with the device.

Froggy7

Wile E. Coyote wrote: »

On point 6 and 7, what makes you think the meters aren't safe or that they pose a risk to you or your family?

There's a lot of claims made about the smart-meters safety, from sources ranging from Health professionals right down to the tin-foil brigade. None of us are experts, but it's hard not to get suspicious and, for our peace of mind, if nothing else, it would be nice to get a solid guarantee directly from the people who are providing these. We live in an area were the water is not drinkable. Personally, I have lost 5 members of my family to cancer and 3 neighbours. I'm not willing to expose my family to more risk without getting some reassurance.

Froggy7

bumper234 wrote: »

On point 5 i believe the meters will not be on your property but on the public pavement so removing them could be criminal damage or even theft.

Thank you, we do not have any intention to break the law in any way. We do need clarification though if the meters are placed on our property without previous agreement.

efb

I want proof posting on boards doesn't give you cancer!!!

WE ARE ALL AT RISK!!!!

Froggy7

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

This sounds like nonsense. Why would the law define you as being in a contract?

Thanks for taking the time to reply in detail, it is our understanding that Irish Water is positionning us as customers and selling us a service/product. This, surely, would mean that the whole arrangement would fall under some sort of contract law? Again, none of us are experts, we are just trying to find out a bit more about what looks to us like a complex situation!

Obstructing the flow of traffic, vehicular or pedestrian, in a public place is an offence. There are some other laws that may apply depending on the nature of the protest.

Thanks, we have not obstructed any traffic in our protest and are just concerned that we may be breaking the law if we stand on our shores (on the footpath). Even if there's still plenty of space for people to walk on the path in front of us, does it still constitute an obstruction?

They will be billed on the basis of estimated usage. The likely method will be to take the total usage for an area, subtract the metered usage and divide the remainder among the unmetered users. Probably using the number of householders as a weighting.

We are unhappy about the lack of information given to us about this. Every other service provider in the country has very clear price info given to customers before they even go near them to install meters.

It won't be in your home and it is not your property. It will likely constitute criminal damage and theft.

Again, we have no intention on breaking the law in any way. If we remove a meter, it would have to have been installed on our property and the idea would be to return it. But none of us have the intention of doing that until we are pretty clear about the implications.

On what basis?
Again, on what basis would it be unsafe?

Please see my reply to Wile. E. Coyote.

Please feel free to hire a solicitor to do your leg work.
It might have to come to this and we will gladly be directed to relevant organisations or experts. Wouldn't it have to be a lawyer rather than a solicitor? Again, we are only a bunch of residents -labourers, single mums, free-lance facilitators- and we haven't got much knowledge or experience dealing with this type of issues! (Bottom of the food chain, wha'!?)

Froggy7

trellheim wrote: »

IANAL and cannot advise you on the legality or otherwise of any act.

With that said please read in full the Water Services Act 2007 and Water Services Act 2013.;

Thanks, that's a start! We just really don't know were to turn and are trying everywhere we can.

Froggy7

Bepolite wrote: »

In relation to point 1. Do you propose to disconnect the mains supply and source your water from somewhere else? Do you intend to disconnect yourself from the main sewer and use septic tanks?

We are not proposing anything as we actually don't have all the answers to make an informed decision. We are just looking to obtain information about our rights and reassurance about a situation that is putting us under a lot of pressure. I hope this answers your question.

godtabh

Froggy7 wrote: »

We are not proposing anything as we actually don't have all the answers to make an informed decision. We are just looking to obtain information about our rights and reassurance about a situation that is putting us under a lot of pressure. I hope this answers your question.

You don't have rights. Water metres will be installed. You will be charged for your water

Froggy7

godtabh wrote: »

You don't have rights. Water metres will be installed. You will be charged for your water

We don't have rights???

Let's be clear: we do not mind paying for water. The issues are all connected to the questions outlined in the first post. When I buy a bag of sugar in a shop, I have a right to
1- be charged the normal price for the sugar (and not twice)
2- be given the sugar in a bag that won't break all over my driveway, or my kitchen floor
3- receive the amount of sugar I paid for
4- complain about the quality of the sugar
5- get my money back and more if there's something else than sugar in the bag which makes me sick

Irish Water is selling me a product. I am therefore a customer. Their words, not mine!

Froggy7

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

Engage a professional who would gladly tell ye all you want to know. Also a expert on water meters would be able to provide any information on them. The giving of advice is not allowed on site. As your questions are so fact specific any answer would have to be advice.

Thanks, we will gladly be directed to relevant organisations or experts. Again, we are only a bunch of residents -labourers, single mums, free-lance facilitators- and we haven't got much knowledge or experience dealing with this type of issues!

Pro Hoc Vice

Froggy7 wrote: »

Thanks, we will gladly be directed to relevant organisations or experts. Again, we are only a bunch of residents -labourers, single mums, free-lance facilitators- and we haven't got much knowledge or experience dealing with this type of issues!

Many residents associations up and down the country get together on various issues and instruct a local solicitor. Any good solicitor will have knowledge of good experts on a wide range of issues. Any local solicitor who has taken on say a planning case for residents should be a first port of call.

LeinsterDub

TeaBagMania wrote: »

If lead based solder is used during manufacture or installation it could pose a risk.

I'd be more worried about the lead pipes we are still using.
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/health/grants-urged-to-remove-harmful-lead-water-pipes-218420.html

Froggy7

Froggy7 wrote: »

Thanks, we will gladly be directed to relevant organisations or experts. Again, we are only a bunch of residents -labourers, single mums, free-lance facilitators- and we haven't got much knowledge or experience dealing with this type of issues!

What is a free-lance facilitator as a matter of interest?

Froggy7

Deleted User wrote: »

What is a free-lance facilitator as a matter of interest?

In my case, it's workshop facilitator (Festivals, Visual Arts, Drama), but also in some cases Health & Safety Training, Team Building, conflict resolution, project management, etc. We are usually self-employed and call into companies, schools, organisations, etc.

Little CuChulainn

Froggy7 wrote: »

Thanks for taking the time to reply in detail, it is our understanding that Irish Water is positionning us as customers and selling us a service/product. This, surely, would mean that the whole arrangement would fall under some sort of contract law? Again, none of us are experts, we are just trying to find out a bit more about what looks to us like a complex situation!

I suppose you have to go back to the founding of ESB and Eircom. I wasn't around then but I presume that their were similar questions. The only difference is that the water network is already in place. You are not being forced into a contract. You are allowed to refuse to be supplied by Irish water and use a well as well as your own sewerage treatment facilities (within regulation). Basically you are already in a contract with the government and they are transferring the contract to Irish Water. This is perfectly legitimate and often happens in buyouts.

Froggy7 wrote: »

Thanks, we have not obstructed any traffic in our protest and are just concerned that we may be breaking the law if we stand on our shores (on the footpath). Even if there's still plenty of space for people to walk on the path in front of us, does it still constitute an obstruction?

All comes down to the circumstances really, There are other offences under the public order act that may apply. For example, if one of your group gets out of hand you may all be directed to leave under section 8 of the public order act.

Froggy7 wrote: »

We are unhappy about the lack of information given to us about this. Every other service provider in the country has very clear price info given to customers before they even go near them to install meters.

As far as I know, the prices are to be decided by a regulator and not Irish Water. This is likely because they hold the monopoly and as we've seen from Eircom, ESB and Bord Gais, when a company controls the network and is a supplier they cannot be trusted to set fair prices.

Froggy7 wrote: »

Again, we have no intention on breaking the law in any way. If we remove a meter, it would have to have been installed on our property and the idea would be to return it. But none of us have the intention of doing that until we are pretty clear about the implications.

For a similar issue look at the are of clamping. There is no case law on it at the moment. Is it illegal to clamp a car? Is it illegal to cut off a clamp? Nobody knows and nobody will until it goes to court.

Froggy7 wrote: »

Please see my reply to Wile. E. Coyote.

As I said, you can work on the basis of an estimated bill instead. But if you're going to go digging up roads and removing water meters you'd want to have more than a hunch on wether there was any danger.

Froggy7 wrote: »

It might have to come to this and we will gladly be directed to relevant organisations or experts. Wouldn't it have to be a lawyer rather than a solicitor? Again, we are only a bunch of residents -labourers, single mums, free-lance facilitators- and we haven't got much knowledge or experience dealing with this type of issues! (Bottom of the food chain, wha'!?)

There are no lawyers in Ireland. You deal with a solicitor and if necessary they retain a barrister for the court room.

Personally I think opposing the installations is pointless. A proper controlled water network is desperately needed in this country. If it's run right we should see reduced prices and increased quality as the network is improved. People would be better off diverting their energy making sure Irish Water is kept on their toes and operating in the best interests of all of us.

Froggy7

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Personally I think opposing the installations is pointless. A proper controlled water network is desperately needed in this country. If it's run right we should see reduced prices and increased quality as the network is improved. People would be better off diverting their energy making sure Irish Water is kept on their toes and operating in the best interests of all of us.

Thanks very much, I will bring your comments to the rest of the neighbours. Personally, I totally agree with your last point; when I started protesting, I knew that, ultimately, the meter would have to go in at some stage. But protesting is, IMO, a good start in keeping Irish Water on their toes, as you say! A pretty visible way of showing we're not happy with the way they are doing things so far. It's not very encouraging for the future!!

Little CuChulainn

Froggy7 wrote: »

Thanks very much, I will bring your comments to the rest of the neighbours. Personally, I totally agree with your last point; when I started protesting, I knew that, ultimately, the meter would have to go in at some stage. But protesting is, IMO, a good start in keeping Irish Water on their toes, as you say! A pretty visible way of showing we're not happy with the way they are doing things so far. It's not very encouraging for the future!!

Even if the meters don't go in you'll still get a bill. And while all the media focus is on the protests we are missing out on the stories about the ridiculous levels of consultations that are costing millions.

Froggy7

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Even if the meters don't go in you'll still get a bill. And while all the media focus is on the protests we are missing out on the stories about the ridiculous levels of consultations that are costing millions.

I find the media coverage of the protests very poor, actually. And biaised. The cost of consultations and corruption at the top is actually grievance number 1 with a majority of the protesters. Funny enough, you don't hear that reported in the media, they prefer to show angry joes, red in the face, shouting that they don't want to pay for water... really not helping!

Froggy7

A few answers from Irish Water on the phone this morning:

3. we are not being charged for the INSTALLATION of the water meters per se, only for the water usage.
4. No penalties or fines for people who stopped or delayed the installation of the meters. These will be charged an ESTIMATE bill based on the number of people in the house, size of the house, etc. If people refuse to pay that bill, then they will be charged and brought to court.

There is no clear plan from Irish Water at this stage as regards coming back to install meters where people have stopped them. They might do it at a later stage, or they might not.

bumper234

Froggy7 wrote: »

A few answers from Irish Water on the phone this morning:

3. we are not being charged for the INSTALLATION of the water meters per se, only for the water usage.
4. No penalties or fines for people who stopped or delayed the installation of the meters. These will be charged an ESTIMATE bill based on the number of people in the house, size of the house, etc. If people refuse to pay that bill, then they will be charged and brought to court.

There is no clear plan from Irish Water at this stage as regards coming back to install meters where people have stopped them. They might do it at a later stage, or they might not.

No might about it, They will estimate your bill on the upper scale and when you are sick of paying "estimated" bills you will be ringing them and asking them to install your meter.

mari2222

Hi
To contribute to the thinking around the issue, it may be useful to be aware that the provision of water is a measure introduced under Public Health/ Sanitary Services law. In 1962, local authorities were empowered to charge a "water rent"; the current water charges are a follow-on of this historic basis. To safeguard the public, local authorities/sanitary authorities could take steps to deliver clean water to houses/take away septic waste and so on.

Froggy7

Froggy7 wrote: »

A few answers from Irish Water on the phone this morning:

3. we are not being charged for the INSTALLATION of the water meters per se, only for the water usage.
4. No penalties or fines for people who stopped or delayed the installation of the meters. These will be charged an ESTIMATE bill based on the number of people in the house, size of the house, etc. If people refuse to pay that bill, then they will be charged and brought to court.

There is no clear plan from Irish Water at this stage as regards coming back to install meters where people have stopped them. They might do it at a later stage, or they might not.

As others have said they will absolutely come back when you insist upon it to reduce your water bill. They may well charge you for the pleasure too given.

TeaBagMania

LeinsterDub wrote: »

I'd be more worried about the lead pipes we are still using.
irishexaminer.com/ireland/health/grants-urged-to-remove-harmful-lead-water-pipes-218420

Yikes, grant or no grant those lead pipes would be ripped out of my house so fast it’d make your head spin.

With all the rain Ireland receives has anyone investigates a rain water catch system to subsidize state water?