Irish Water Discussion {MERGE}

Slozer · 01-10-2014 4:16pm

TheChizler wrote: »

Imagine McDonalds suddenly start charging 10c for ketchup, would you continue to take it without paying because no formal agreement was made. Would you be in the right? Ketchup is a type of food, food is necessary to live, should it be free?

Yes, I would. I like a bit of Ketchup on my fries every now and again.
Ketchup is not provided nor was it previously provided under a system whereby I pay a tax for it. Nor do Mcdonalds pipe ketchup direct to my tap.

Slozer · 01-10-2014 4:17pm

Victor wrote: »

Is this from the Shoplifters Charter?You are happy to take the goods, but not pay the legally imposed charge.

Would you go into a supermarket with you own container and take water from a water bottle and wander off, leaving the empty supermarket bottle behind? It much the same as you are proposing.

Not really since I am not already paying a tax for supermarket water.

Slozer · 01-10-2014 4:20pm

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

By refuse the service do you mean cut themselves off from the mains and sewerage system? If so then I'm sure that'd be fine.

EDIT: once they comply with regulations in regard to disposing of waste.

No. I mean by simply saying that they do not want the service. Not cutting themselves off.

Pro Hoc Vice · 01-10-2014 4:23pm

Slozer wrote: »

I worded that badly. If you use the service you are contracted to pay. But if you explicitly tell Irish water you do not want to be one of their customers how can they still charge you?

Basically what I would be asking is if you don't want the service are you legally obliged to pay for it?

My reference to the grey area should have been if you say you do not want the service can Irish water chase you for the money considering that they cannot cut supply?

If you don't want the service then do not use it so no you can not be forced to pay for a service you have not used nor did you want to use.

If the question is if I don't want to pay for the service, but do want to use the service, am I legally obliged to pay for it then the answer is yes.

Hogzy · 01-10-2014 4:24pm

Slozer wrote: »

I worded that badly. If you use the service you are contracted to pay. But if you explicitly tell Irish water you do not want to be one of their customers how can they still charge you?

They can charge you because you are using their service by turning on a tap that has 'Irish Water' coming from it. If you dont use the service then they wont charge you. I really dont get why youre struggling to understand that. Its very simple. Not using water = Not getting charged.

Basically what I would be asking is if you don't want the service are you legally obliged to pay for it?

No. Just dont use the service as explained above.

My reference to the grey area should have been if you say you do not want the service can Irish water chase you for the money considering that they cannot cut supply?

If you use the service then they can chase you for the money the same way any other service provider can. And yes they can cut off your water supply.

Paulw · 01-10-2014 4:31pm

Hogzy wrote: »

And yes they can cut off your water supply.

Not according to the Water Services Act 2013, they can not turn off your water supply.

Hogzy · 01-10-2014 4:33pm

Paulw wrote: »

Not according to the Water Services Act 2013, they can not turn off your water supply.

What article as a matter of interest?

If they cannot cut you off then I would imagine they could reduce the water pressure to a unusable level.

Little CuChulainn · 01-10-2014 4:37pm

Slozer wrote: »

No. I mean by simply saying that they do not want the service. Not cutting themselves off.

Saying you don't want to use the service while using it is redundant.

FreudianSlippers · 01-10-2014 4:43pm

Hogzy wrote: »

What article as a matter of interest?

If they cannot cut you off then I would imagine they could reduce the water pressure to a unusable level.

Section 21 of the Water Services (No. 2) Act 2013:

(7) Subject to subsection (8), Irish Water may reduce or discontinue the supply of water to a premises where a charge under this section in respect of the premises remains wholly or partly unpaid for such period of time as may be specified in the approved water charges plan or an approved agreement, as may be appropriate.

(8) Irish Water shall not, by reason of a charge in respect of a dwelling being wholly or partly unpaid, discontinue the supply of water to that dwelling either temporarily or permanently

They can reduce the supply to a home (but not discontinue) and can reduce or discontinue to a non-residential property.

jimennis7048 · 01-10-2014 5:18pm

Thanks , so if i read the section correctly the person to commit the offence must have obstructed water services autority or any other prescribed authority of powers vested in them by the act ....so find the powers vested by the act first and see if it includes the works of fitting a meter and secondly was there any notice ,direction or order issued under the act that was obstructed ...

Little CuChulainn · 01-10-2014 5:20pm

No it's (a) or (b)

jimennis7048 · 01-10-2014 6:12pm

Your very kind thank you , not aware of any notice or direction so it should fall under (a) i can't see any power the act gives that was obstructed but would hope you could have a quick look at it for me and give me your opinion it would be greatly appreciated and welcomed . kind regards

coylemj · 01-10-2014 6:22pm

jimennis7048 wrote: »

Your very kind thank you , not aware of any notice or direction so it should fall under (a) i can't see any power the act gives that was obstructed but would hope you could have a quick look at it for me and give me your opinion it would be greatly appreciated and welcomed . kind regards

You didn't try very hard did you? I found this in 30 seconds reading the same act that you quoted from - S.72 (1) ...

(b) a water services authority shall—

(i) keep every meter whether let by it for hire to a consumer or supplied free of charge, in proper order for measuring the supply of water or discharge of waste water, and in default of so doing, such consumer shall not be liable to pay rent as long as the default continues, and

(ii) have access to and be at liberty at all reasonable times to install, read, remove, examine, repair, replace or reinstall such meter.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2007/en/act/pub/0030/sec0072.html

jimennis7048 · 01-10-2014 6:49pm

Thank you , the act defines the water services authority as a County Council or City Council , and the Water Services act 2013 gives it the same definition as the 2007 act so does Irish Water or its contractors constitute a water services authority as defined by the act because if they dont then no offence could be committed ?

Bepolite · 01-10-2014 6:54pm

jimennis7048 wrote: »

Thank you , the act defines the water services authority as a County Council or City Council , and the Water Services act 2013 gives it the same definition as the 2007 act so does Irish Water or its contractors constitute a water services authority as defined by the act because if they dont then no offence could be committed ?

That's not what is says though.

water services authority ” means a County Council or a City Council as defined in the Act of 2001, and, subject to such exceptions as may be prescribed, and where the context permits, any references to a sanitary authority or local authority in any legislation, in so far as it relates to functions of that authority in relation to water services, shall be regarded as a reference to a water services authority;

Pro Hoc Vice · 01-10-2014 6:58pm

jimennis7048 wrote: »

Thank you , the act defines the water services authority as a County Council or City Council , and the Water Services act 2013 gives it the same definition as the 2007 act so does Irish Water or its contractors constitute a water services authority as defined by the act because if they dont then no offence could be committed ?

Are you sure, for example has the Act been amended by any other Act or more importantly Regulation.

Have you looked at section 4 of the 2013 Act and section 19 of the same act.

jimennis7048 · 01-10-2014 7:35pm

You are all very kind , if anybody has any opinions on the use of section 12 of the 2007 act to arrest and stop protesters and it legality and likely outcome of such cases i would be interested ,thank you

Victor · 01-10-2014 10:33pm

Slozer wrote: »

Not really since I am not already paying a tax for supermarket water.

Where do you think the supermarket gets their water? Hint: it isn't spring water.

FreudianSlippers · 02-10-2014 8:57am

jimennis7048 wrote: »

You are all very kind , if anybody has any opinions on the use of section 12 of the 2007 act to arrest and stop protesters and it legality and likely outcome of such cases i would be interested ,thank you

I have one:

1) The act makes it an offence to obstruct the installation of water meters;
2) People obstructed installation of water meters, therefore committing an offence pursuant to s12;
3) ???
4) Profit.

Seriously, what are you looking for exactly? If the law says it is illegal to possess stolen goods (and it does) and I clearly possess stolen goods contrary to the law, do you seriously think there should be an "opinion" as to whether it was correct to arrest me for possession of stolen goods?

gyppo · 02-10-2014 10:05am

Sorry for entering the party late, and I know its probably already been asked, but here goes:

Is there any obligation on a homeowner who has both a private well + a septic tank on their residence to fill out and return the Irish Water declaration form?

When I rang them, I was told I would be billed if I did not make a declaration.
I'm inclined to let them do this, as I will not be a customer, and will not have entered into any contract.

Bepolite · 02-10-2014 10:06am

gyppo wrote: »

I'm inclined to let them do this, as I will not be a customer, and will not have entered into any contract.

You've no connection to the mains supply, only the well?

gyppo · 02-10-2014 10:08am

Bepolite wrote: »

You've no connection to the mains supply, only the well?

None at all

Ogham · 02-10-2014 10:10am

gyppo wrote: »

Sorry for entering the party late, and I know its probably already been asked, but here goes:

Is there any obligation on a homeowner who has both a private well + a septic tank on their residence to fill out and return the Irish Water declaration form?

When I rang them, I was told I would be billed if I did not make a declaration.
I'm inclined to let them do this, as I will not be a customer, and will not have entered into any contract.

All you have to do is tick a box to say you have your own well and septic tank . They want nothing else off you - what's the problem . (They already have your name and address anyway)
No reply will just result in a bill and more hassle later to get it cancelled.

gyppo · 02-10-2014 10:13am

Ogham wrote: »

All you have to do is tick a box to say you have your own well and septic tank . They want nothing else off you - what's the problem . (They already have your name and address anyway)
No reply will just result in a bill and more hassle later to get it cancelled.

From my viewpoint, its an unsolicited request - why should I even entertain it?

Bepolite · 02-10-2014 10:16am

gyppo wrote: »

None at all

Ogham wrote: »

All you have to do is tick a box to say you have your own well and septic tank . They want nothing else off you - what's the problem . (They already have your name and address anyway)
No reply will just result in a bill and more hassle later to get it cancelled.

From a practical stand point the above is the best thing to do. Your other options are;

(i) Challenge it. It will make for good reading in a few years time for law students up and down the country. It will put your name in 'lights' so to speak; perhaps opening a new footnote in Irish contract law. There might even be the odd undergrad assignment praising or lambasting you. Of course if you lose that'll be expensive.

(ii) Wait for them to take you to court. Take a few days off, pop along. Maybe the above happens, more likely it'll be just be a straight pay/don't pay decision and potential expensive.

Or you could just sign the fecking form.

Peregrinus · 02-10-2014 10:16am

Because it will be easier for you to dispose of it now than to dispose of it later.

Sure, you're under no obligation to do this; you are entirely within your rights in not responding. It's just not particularly in your interests to exercise your rights in this way.

gyppo · 02-10-2014 10:26am

Thanks for the replies, and I agree, its probably easier just to play ball with IW.

However, I installed my water and waste systems at my own considerable expense, with no grant aid or support from anyone - I now resent being asked for information from a party with which I have no contract with.

gyppo · 02-10-2014 10:33am

Bepolite wrote: »

. Your other options are;

(i) Challenge it. It will make for good reading in a few years time for law students up and down the country. It will put your name in 'lights' so to speak; perhaps opening a new footnote in Irish contract law. There might even be the odd undergrad assignment praising or lambasting you. Of course if you lose that'll be expensive.

Challenge what? My intention is to ignore the declaration request

Bepolite wrote: »

(ii) Wait for them to take you to court. Take a few days off, pop along. Maybe the above happens, more likely it'll be just be a straight pay/don't pay decision and potential expensive.

Why would they take a non-customer, who has no contract with them, and who does not owe them anything to court?

Bepolite wrote: »

Or you could just sign the fecking form.

But why should I? This is still my original question - is there anything in law that means I am obligated to sign this declaration?

FreudianSlippers · 02-10-2014 10:46am

That's your prerogative I guess, but they are then going to bill you for the default assessed charge. I haven't seen the form, but it's clear you only need to fill in Section F and return the form and you will not be in any contract with them.

Hogzy · 02-10-2014 10:49am

gyppo wrote: »

But why should I? This is still my original question - is there anything in law that means I am obligated to sign this declaration?

BECAUSE ITS EASIER FOR YOU IN THE LONG RUN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dont bother signing it if you don't want to. You're well within your rights to but its going to create hassle down the line.

Like what is the problem with filling out a bloody form. Some people just love to create hassle at every juncture in life.

Irish Water Discussion {MERGE}

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