Irish Water Discussion {MERGE}

Losty Dublin

TeaBagMania wrote: »

Yikes, grant or no grant those lead pipes would be ripped out of my house so fast it’d make your head spin.

With all the rain Ireland receives has anyone investigates a rain water catch system to subsidize state water?

Some council bring centres and garden centres sell such kits. They don't sanitise water so it's not fit for a lot, certainly not for human consumption.

mruser2014

Irish water contractors damaged the front of my car with concrete splashes and stones chipped my bumper and windscreen.

I was parked in one of our parking places in our estate and they drilled a hole next to my car. Other cars were damaged in a similar nature. We have complained and are awaiting a reply.

Just shows people need to be careful with the contractors. It's disgraceful.

Five Lamps

Froggy7 wrote: »

We don't have rights???

Let's be clear: we do not mind paying for water. The issues are all connected to the questions outlined in the first post. When I buy a bag of sugar in a shop, I have a right to
1- be charged the normal price for the sugar (and not twice)
2- be given the sugar in a bag that won't break all over my driveway, or my kitchen floor
3- receive the amount of sugar I paid for
4- complain about the quality of the sugar
5- get my money back and more if there's something else than sugar in the bag which makes me sick

Irish Water is selling me a product. I am therefore a customer. Their words, not mine!

I would have thought that IW would be doing all of the above - though in the case of 2. the plumbing in your driveway and kitchen floor is your problem not theirs.

Froggy7 wrote:

Every other service provider in the country has very clear price info given to customers before they even go near them to install meters.

This is factually incorrect. No other utility service provider i.e. gas or electric installs their own meters. You have to pay for a meter to be installed by either the ESB Networks or Bord Gais Networks - neither of whom sell either electricity or gas.

IW are unique in that they are both installing the meters and supplying their service. However, it's no different to other utilities - you have to have a meter in place to avail of the service.

Bepolite

Froggy7 wrote: »

We don't have rights???

3- receive the amount of sugar I paid for

Irish Water is selling me a product. I am therefore a customer. Their words, not mine!

Interesting analogy - safety concerns aside which I belive to be fully in the tin foil hat camp - isn't metering simply giving you what you pay for?

Froggy7

Five Lamps wrote: »

I would have thought that IW would be doing all of the above - though in the case of 2. the plumbing in your driveway and kitchen floor is your problem not theirs.

Obviously. But we're all aware at this stage of the state of the plumbing before it even gets there! This was just for the purpose of the sugar metaphor.

Five Lamps wrote: »

This is factually incorrect. No other utility service provider i.e. gas or electric installs their own meters. You have to pay for a meter to be installed by either the ESB Networks or Bord Gais Networks - neither of whom sell either electricity or gas.

What do they sell then? I need a lot more info, obviously. The facts remains the same: I pay for it at the end of the day! And in the case of electricity, I have the choice to change provider and question their prices. Same for Gas: I actually choose not to be with them and heat my house in a different ways.

Five Lamps wrote: »

IW are unique in that they are both installing the meters and supplying their service. However, it's no different to other utilities - you have to have a meter in place to avail of the service.

The whole monopoly thing with Irish Water does not sit right with me. And it IS different on many levels. One example here: http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/water-customers-have-no-access-to-watchdog-270242.html
It is different also in that I NEVER had bad electricity delivered to my home. However, I have NEVER been able to drink the water from my tap, even when I filter it... and God knows I'm not fussy!

Little CuChulainn

Froggy7 wrote: »

Obviously. But we're all aware at this stage of the state of the plumbing before it even gets there! This was just for the purpose of the sugar metaphor.




What do they sell then? I need a lot more info, obviously. The facts remains the same: I pay for it at the end of the day! And in the case of electricity, I have the choice to change provider and question their prices. Same for Gas: I actually choose not to be with them and heat my house in a different ways.



The whole monopoly thing with Irish Water does not sit right with me. And it IS different on many levels. One example here: http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/water-customers-have-no-access-to-watchdog-270242.html
It is different also in that I NEVER had bad electricity delivered to my home. However, I have NEVER been able to drink the water from my tap, even when I filter it... and God knows I'm not fussy!

Do you think that people had a choice on provider when ESB was established? Do you think they had a choice when Telecom Eireann was set up? Do you think they had perfect service? The fact is that when you are setting up a new national network for something you don't have a choice.

GerardKeating

Froggy7 wrote: »

Hello all, we are a small group of independent residents who are currently protesting against the installation of the water meters, all for various reasons that we won’t go into for the moment. Here are our questions, which we are also sending to Irish Water, Deputies in the Dail and the Gardai Siochana. It would be great if any of you with a bit of legal knowledge could help us with some answers, where possible:


1. What article of law defines us, residents, as being in a legally binding contract with Irish Water?
2. What does constitute an unlawful obstruction of work in the conduct of our protests? In what measure are we within our right to demonstrate/protest in front of our homes?
3. Is Irish Water planning on charging us for the installation of the smart meters? If so, how much? Does this include the price of the meter itself? If not, how much is Irish Water planning to charge for the smart-meter itself?
4. What is Irish Water’s policy as regards people who have stopped or delayed the installation of smart meters? Is Irish Water looking at imposing fines or financial penalties on these and if so, how much and on what grounds?
5. Is it illegal to remove the smart meter from our homes ourselves?
6. Is it our right to request the removal of the smart-meter if we genuinely believe that it constitutes a health threat to the people in our homes?
7. Can Irish Water officially guarantee the safety of the smart-meters? If not, has there been provision made for an alternative metering system?


Please state article number and wording in all answers relative to law.

Thank you very much for your help!

Unless you do not currently have a water supply, you are already have a contact with Irish Water.

Froggy7

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Do you think that people had a choice on provider when ESB was established? Do you think they had a choice when Telecom Eireann was set up? Do you think they had perfect service? The fact is that when you are setting up a new national network for something you don't have a choice.

The simple answer to all your questions is I don't know. Which is why I am coming onto this forum and elsewhere asking every organisation/expert/information body I can find.

If you are, indeed, right and we have no choice, then the next question is do we have rights within that set-up? Then, if the answer is no again, we will all need to think long and hard about the consequences of allowing this to happen.

When the Germans invaded France, the government went with it and collaborated; would you then say that French people had no choice and should have embraced the new regime? However, a few of them questioned the benefits of the Nazi regime and formed the resistance. Forgive this extreme parallel, but all I'm trying to say is it's not because the government decides something is good for a country that we should all bow our heads in quiet reverence. They make mistakes. Don't they? It is not only our choice and our right to hold them accountable and ask for answers, it is our moral duty to ourselves, our children and future generations in this country. If they are all above board and looking after our interests as they claim, surely it will become apparent very quickly?

Pro Hoc Vice

Froggy7 wrote: »

The simple answer to all your questions is I don't know. Which is why I am coming onto this forum and elsewhere asking every organisation/expert/information body I can find.

If you are, indeed, right and we have no choice, then the next question is do we have rights within that set-up? Then, if the answer is no again, we will all need to think long and hard about the consequences of allowing this to happen.

When the Germans invaded France, the government went with it and collaborated; would you then say that French people had no choice and should have embraced the new regime? However, a few of them questioned the benefits of the Nazi regime and formed the resistance. Forgive this extreme parallel, but all I'm trying to say is it's not because the government decides something is good for a country that we should all bow our heads in quiet reverence. They make mistakes. Don't they? It is not only our choice and our right to hold them accountable and ask for answers, it is our moral duty to ourselves, our children and future generations in this country. If they are all above board and looking after our interests as they claim, surely it will become apparent very quickly?

Weird example but anyway. The simple matter is many homes in ireland have always paid for water. The simple matter is water that is provided free to some homes costs the whole country 1.2 billion per year. That is thanks to the Jack Lynch government of 1977. It simple we as a country pay out more than we take in every year that can not go on all homes will have to pay for water or all people will have to pay more tax it's really that simple.

In relation to the throwing around words like rights there is no right to free treated pumped water. If you want to sink a well provide a pump and get clean water work away, if you want someone to reliever ya quilify product then pay.

slimjimmc

Froggy7 wrote: »

It is different also in that I NEVER had bad electricity delivered to my home.

Strangely enough you can get 'bad' electricity, my parents' supply had gradually weakened over time thanks to a failing transformer on the ESB pole. Caused all sorts of upset to appliances. ESB eventually repaired the problem but the parents still had to pay their energy bill.

Rubberchikken

injunction won to block water meter installation.
todays mail.
temp injunction, and a court case on June 23rd.

have grown so disillusioned, so i personally admire the man but don't see what can be achieved.

Pro Hoc Vice

Rubberchikken wrote: »

injunction won to block water meter installation.
todays mail.
temp injunction, and a court case on June 23rd.

have grown so disillusioned, so i personally admire the man but don't see what can be achieved.

It's an injunction got without the other side present. The test is low, and an undertaking must be given to pay damages. If this matter is fought all the way and lost by the plaintiff he is facing a very very large cost order he may get the benigit of no cost order as the matter is one of public importance.

Losty Dublin

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

It's an injunction got without the other side present. The test is low, and an undertaking must be given to pay damages. If this matter is fought all the way and lost by the plaintiff he is facing a very very large cost order he may get the benigit of no cost order as the matter is one of public importance.

Well, what wud ya know; it's Ben's BFF, Tony Rochford.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/man-gets-injunctions-to-stop-irish-water-from-installing-meter-271284.html

I also notice that... "Yesterday, Mr Rochford was fined €60 at Trim District Court after he pleaded guilty to obstructing the road near his home on 27 May."

rameire

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Well, what wud ya know; it's Ben's BFF, Tony Rochford.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/man-gets-injunctions-to-stop-irish-water-from-installing-meter-271284.html

I also notice that... "Yesterday, Mr Rochford was fined €60 at Trim District Court after he pleaded guilty to obstructing the road near his home on 27 May."

They should screw the lot of these by cutting the water to their houses and placing a hand pump in on the path. And if they want water they need to pump it by hand into buckets.

ligertigon

Are you allowed to install your own meter? via an approved plumber of course

brian_t

ligertigon wrote: »

Are you allowed to install your own meter? via an approved plumber of course

I would assume you can install what you want as long as it is on your side of Irish Waters meter.

ligertigon

I meant instead of them installing one, you install your own, the same as theirs, let them code it etc.
But it remains your property.

No Pants

Froggy7 wrote: »

3. we are not being charged for the INSTALLATION of the water meters per se, only for the water usage.

That's a slightly disingenuous statement from them. You will be paying for the meter and the installation. It'll be included in the cost of the water. The difference being, you will now have no idea how much they're charging you for it or the rate of interest that they've stuck on top.

GerardKeating

ligertigon wrote: »

I meant instead of them installing one, you install your own, the same as theirs, let them code it etc.
But it remains your property.

To what advantage?

The ESB insist on you using their meter, same basic concept.

Losty Dublin

GerardKeating wrote: »

To what advantage?

The ESB insist on you using their meter, same basic concept.

And rightly so.

The whole point of the utility company installing their meter is that they know that it works as per their requirements; they are responsible for it's safe operation, servicing and also for ensuring that it's calibration is legit and in order. Were we allowed to put in our own meter, the utility company loses control over any of the safety elements plus you as a customer assume these mantles.

Dharnam

Hi all. Does anyone know here which way to go about to disconnect from Irish Water to your own supply? Cant seam to find anything on the internet.

rameire

you would need your own water supply, a plumber and to contact Irish water to advise them to disconnect you.

slimjimmc

rameire wrote: »

you would need your own water supply, a plumber and to contact Irish water to advise them to disconnect you.

And to be disconnected completely, your own waste treatment too if you're currently on a public sewer. I imagine it would be tricky to get planning permission for that if there's an existing public sewer going past your door.

http://www.water.ie/help-centre/questions-and-answers/who-will-not-be-a-customer-of-irish-water/?category=general-information

TeaBagMania

What’s the base fee for water\meter\sewer if you don’t use any water?

Losty Dublin

TeaBagMania wrote: »

What’s the base fee for water\meter\sewer if you don’t use any water?

Pricing has yet to be announced; you'll have to wait till the charging schemes are announced for exact prices.

racso1975

Am seeing and a lot about this. Folks saying if you don't sign the pack they are sending out and return it saying no contract entered into or agreed to then they cannot pursue for payment. I know they have a piece on the website stating they will persue in court for breach of contract. Is a contract assumed because you use water?

Bepolite

OP see this most wonderful thread - you can pretty much skip to the end.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056353782

I do think you should have the right to refuse service and have the water cut off personally, but there is a public health issue there.

Grolschevik

And just for the sake of clarity, all those 'no contract'/'no consent' Facebook posts and the letters/notices associated with them are complete bull****, with absolutely no basis, legal or otherwise.

TheChizler

I read it as that you're confirming that you already are a customer, i.e. use the public water supply, not 'would you like to become a customer?'.

Victor

racso1975 wrote: »

Am seeing and a lot about this. Folks saying if you don't sign the pack they are sending out and return it saying no contract entered into or agreed to then they cannot pursue for payment. I know they have a piece on the website stating they will persue in court for breach of contract. Is a contract assumed because you use water?

Essentially, the contract is implied by behaviour. I imagine there are also statutory matters.

Refusing to pay for water would be no different to going into a buffet (self service) restaurant, eating all around you and then refusing to pay.