Irish Water Discussion {MERGE}

Going Forward

Graham wrote: »

Didn't you also post this stunning bit of pointlessness in another thread recently?

I understand if you stomp your feet and scream while you put your completed form in the letter box the net effect is the same.

I think it's a great idea.

Inform them, pay them, job done.

They can drag you through the courts if they like.....to fill out their form.

Graham

Going Forward wrote: »

They can drag you through the courts if they like.....to fill out their form.

I await the slew of posts from people complaining they didn't receive their water allowances even though they submitted their PPS number written in pink crayon on a Tayto packet.

Going Forward

Graham wrote: »

I await the slew of posts from people complaining they didn't receive their water allowances even though they submitted their PPS number written in pink crayon on a Tayto packet.

I await the slew of posts from people complaining they didn't receive their water allowances even though they sent back the forms as requested.

Pink crayons and Tayto packs?

Not the usual tools of correspondence, but if it rocks your boat........

Rucking_Fetard

Graham wrote: »

I await the slew of posts from people complaining they didn't receive their water allowances even though they submitted their PPS number written in pink crayon on a Tayto packet.

You need to reread that, i see nothing bout crayons or tayto.

Graham

Rucking_Fetard wrote: »

You need to reread that, i see nothing bout crayons or tayto.

I must have mentally lumped it in with all of the other completely pointless suggestions. After a while they all start to smell the same.

Johnboy1951

What is the situation for those people who received no correspondence from IW?

Are they expected to take the initiative and contact IW or wait or .... ?

Rucking_Fetard

Graham wrote: »

I must have mentally lumped it in with all of the other completely pointless suggestions. After a while they all start to smell the same.

Same can be said for your response, all the water threads are beyond useless with these back and forth bickerin posts....filling the thread with sh1t, sickening my hole.

Losty Dublin

Going Forward wrote: »

I think it's a great idea.

Inform them, pay them, job done.

They can drag you through the courts if they like.....to fill out their form.

A lot of companies and bodies scam forms like these instead of relying on data entry staff manually entering in every single detail. Sending in the required information on something other than the specified form means that it will take longer to deal with, it slows things up for all concerned plus it raises the chances of your application being screwed up or returned unprocessed.

In short, it's stupid.

Rucking_Fetard

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

What is the situation for those people who received no correspondence from IW?

Are they expected to take the initiative and contact IW or wait or .... ?

Online reg, off with ya.

hullaballoo

This is legal discussion and as such, the words used in here can have a very specific meaning. If you use "duress" and "coercion", they are terms that have specific meaning to which civil and or criminal liability may attach. It's not just a case of feeling a bit pressurised to do something.

The reason why freemen and other pseudo-legal groups are prohibited from posting on this forum is basically because a little knowledge is a dangerous thing and they are blaggers, scammers and con men. They're holding themselves out as having legal knowledge - legal knowledge superior to that of lawyers, incidentally - and they are preying on people who know no better with their scams.

Of course, the clever ones hide their crazy enough, just enough, that what they're saying might be believable. Might be, if you don't know the framework within which the likes of IW works. At the other end of the scale, there are the out-and-proud lunatics who refuse to recognise the authority of any power of the State. It's far easier to dismiss that kind of crazy.

The real danger is where people en masse don't want to do something, it's very easy for these scammers to convince them they don't need to.

This is the legal equivalent of going to a homeopathist for advice on how to heal a broken leg. Take a few innocuous herbs and hold some magnets and you'll be grand sure.

Johnboy1951

Rucking_Fetard wrote: »

Online reg, off with ya.

I am told you need your PIN to do the on line reg ...... by a neighbour who did not receive anything from IW, and who apparently looked to register on line.

FreudianSlippers

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

I am told you need your PIN to do the on line reg ...... by a neighbour who did not receive anything from IW, and who apparently looked to register on line.

AFAIK you have until end Oct. So maybe not all received yet (I haven't received mine).

Robbo

Spotted this on the Reddit yesterday.

Most of the content of every Irish Water thread ever, in bingo format.

GerardKeating

Rucking_Fetard wrote: »

Online reg, off with ya.

Does one not need the "PIN" in the letter to register online ?

byrneg28

I read this on an anti-IW website

Just some of my thoughts on the Myths/Lies out there regarding Irish Water for anybody that’s interested.

If you are up to it I would suggest that you also read the Water Services Act 2007/2013 before making up your mind as to what you want to do. Knowledge is power. When all is said and done, it is your choice, regardless of what the Government or Media would have you believe. I hope this will help to dispel a lot fear people have due to lies, myths and half-truths being put out there by vested interest groups.

Myth 1 - Irish Water now control the supply of water in Ireland.

No, they don’t. The Act states that the Government have EXTENDED some of the functions of the Water Services Authorities (Councils) to the Water Metering Authority (Irish Water). It's important to note the word "extended". Notice it does not say the word “replaced”. So, unless you consent to enter into a contract with Irish Water, the Water Services Authority will still continue to supply you with YOUR water. Irish Water are a “metering” (billing) company.

Myth 2 – They will cut off my water if I don’t pay/Turn it down to a trickle.

This is a lie that was put out there by non-other than Mr Phil Hogan. The act PROHIBITS both the Water Services Authority & the Water Metering Authority, either permanently or temporarily, from turning off/down your water in respect to a dwelling. A Dwelling being a place where people live as opposed to another type of premises such as an office where people work (But they can do it if the premises is not a dwelling.) There are various phone calls posted on youtube where Irish Water confirm this to be a fact, and quote “we don’t know why Phil Hogan said that”[regarding turning down the pressure for non-payment].

Myth 3 – It's now the law, I have to sign up with Irish Water.

No, you don’t. You are under no legal obligation to enter into a Treaty with ANY private company against your will. This is the nub of the issue. There is nothing in either the 2007 or 2013 act to COMPEL a private citizen to sign up to Irish Water. Even if there was, it with would run contrary to the Constitution, Irish Consumer Law, and European Law, and would therefore be completely unenforceable (illegal).

Regardless of what laws the Government pass, you are still a free citizen with Constitutional Rights (to Property, Privacy, and Protest). They cannot pass ANY law that will limit, or remove these rights from you. They only way the could do this is by holding a referendum.

Again, your consent is required for the scam to work.
It is not like the Property Tax that was administered by the Office of the Revenue Commissioners. Irish Water are a Private Limited company and have no authority to dip into your finances without your consent.

Myth 4 – Irish Water is not a Private Company

While the shares of Irish Water are currently held by the Irish Government, Irish Water is still a private company (Registered No: 530363). Not to mention the fact that we cannot trust that Fine Gael, or any other future Government, will not sell off these shares to Private operators, as they have done in the past with Bord Gais, ESB, Eircom, and AerLingus.

“We promise not to sell it..” Just like Labours “We promise not to introduce Water Charges”.

While it is true that it is currently illegal to sell Irish Water, or any part of it, there is nothing stopping this Government, or any future one, from changing the law to MAKE IT LEGAL.
The 2013 Water Act was signed into law on Christmas Day! What does that tell you?

Myth 5 – I have to give Irish Water my PPS number

No, you don’t. Irish Water are now a listed organisation by the Department of Social Protection. This DOES NOT mean that they automatically have access to your PPS number and other details. It simply means that if you sign up to them, YOU are GIVING THEM CONSENT to access, and otherwise use as THEY see fit, your personal, financial, medical and social (PPS) information. Scary isn’t it!

If you notify Irish Water that you are not their customer, and that you have NO intention of entering into a contract, they cannot access your private information.
This is important, as you must clearly state your intent.

Myth 6 – Irish Water will take any money owed from my wages, bank, income, or social welfare

No, they can’t. In the Water Acts its states that monies can be recovered as a “Simple Contract Debt”. Meaning they would have to take you to court. First, they would have to prove that you are their customer, then, that a contract exists, and that you agreed to the price/T&C's, and that you are now simply refusing to pay. So, they will claim, you are in breach of said contract. If they cannot establish that a valid contract exists, the case will never go as far as Court! They would have no legal standing!

So, DO NOT FILL OUT THE "APPLICATION" PACK - No Consent.
No Contract. Simple...

Myth 7 – The meter is the contract

No, it is not! When they are putting in the meter, please ensure that you have a sign in your window, or inform the Installer either orally, or in writing, that you are not, and have no intention of becoming, an Irish Water customer, and to refrain from installing a meter.
If they install the meter anyway, send Irish Water a letter (preferably by registered post) telling them that you are NOT a customer of theirs, and that the meter, or any readings taken from it “will not be construed as a contract either explicit or implied”.

Also, if you wish, you may advise Irish Water that the meter will be considered abandoned property, whether its on public or private land, it is connected to your house, and that they have 21 days to remove the device or you will remove it, and destroy it, “without prejudice or liability” (this last bit means they cannot charge you for the cost of the meter if you remove it or destroy it).

Myth 8 – My landlord can force me to sign up

No, s/he can’t. A landlord (or Letting Agency for that matter) has NO business, or legal authority, to ask you for your PPS details and they certainly CANNOT sign you into a private contract with a third party without your consent. No more than I could sign any of you up to a Credit Card company, because, well, I said so! And so what if they have clauses in the lease agreement stating that they can? They cannot enter any term or condition in the lease agreement that would deprive you of your legal rights, as a citizen or as a consumer.
While the PRTB are asking landlords/letting agencies to gather PPS numbers to register tenants, it turns out that this little practice is entirely ILLEGAL!

Myth 9 – Irish Water will pay to fix problems on my property (once off)

Reports are coming in from all over Ireland to say that Irish Water are already reneging on this. People are posting online that they have to pay to get their driveways dug up to fix large leaks, because the issue is on “their property" and therefore not the responsibility of Irish Water!

People, you have the law on your side. Use it wisely!

—- I have decided not to consent to become a customer of Irish
Water, now what?

Well, that’s a fantastic question. At the time of writing, no organisation has responded to this question for me. On Irish Water’s website it states that if you do not return a completed application pack you are not their customer. So for you, it’s business as usual.
You will still get your water via your current supplier, the Water Services Authority (Council). There is a reason why the Government, and Irish Water, as well as other groups will not answer this question, it is because IT’S ALL PART OF THE SCAM.

“Sign-up, or else”
“Or else what?”
“Nothing, your were supposed to just sign up!”

Finally, I hope you can see by now that for the Great Water Scam of 2014 to work – You have to CONSENT.
Without your consent nothing can happen, so don’t give it!


Is this true/law, or is it freeman bull, just unsure what to make of it, there has to be something missing here..

Graham

byrneg28 wrote: »

Is this true/law, or is it freeman bull, just unsure what to make of it, there has to be something missing here..

Almost pure bull but I suspect you already knew that.

Read through the rest of this thread and you will find most of the 'facts' in your post have already been disproved.

As with most Freeman BS, it's almost entirely comprised of out of context snippets of facts which have been sliced, diced and reassembled jigsaw style to support their rather bizarre outlook.

byrneg28

Graham wrote: »

Almost pure bull but I suspect you already knew that.

Read through the rest of this thread and you will find most of the 'facts' in your post have already been disproved.

As with most Freeman BS, it's almost entirely comprised of out of context snippets of facts which have been sliced, diced and reassembled jigsaw style to support their rather bizarre outlook.

Thanks Graham, probably should have read through the thread first

brownej

byrneg28 wrote: »

Is this true/law, or is it freeman bull, just unsure what to make of it, there has to be something missing here..

Have a read of this it might clarify things for you
http://www.broadsheet.ie/2014/10/03/no-contract-no-consent/

That whole list of myths is full of half truths and deliberate misinterpretations.

Alot of the argument seems to be centred around the whole idea of being forced to be a customer. In this case customer is defined in the legislation. In the context of water it means something different to the general idea of customer. It's just shorthand for "the occupier of the premises in respect of which the water supply is provided".

I love the second part of myth 7.
I think I will declare that the pipes in the road and the road signs are abandoned property and dig them up.

FreudianSlippers

I had free time the other day and responded to that exact nonsense posted in the Politics forum: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=92426318#post92426318

TheChizler

There's another one going around that I love. You own everything attached to your house apparently. Should make it interesting if you're buying a house in a terrace.

byrneg28

Not sure about the thread rules but delete this post Mods if i'm crossing the line, or cease further discussion about it.

But where do these freemen come from? Maybe I'm being ignorant but everyone who's protesting in my area are protesting all day and harassing workers as you know. It's aggravating and it just seems like they are bored individuals who don't have employment with nothing else better to be doing

FreudianSlippers

byrneg28 wrote: »

Not sure about the thread rules but delete this post Mods if i'm crossing the line, or cease further discussion about it.

But where do these freemen come from? Maybe I'm being ignorant but everyone who's protesting in my area are protesting all day and harassing workers as you know. It's aggravating and it just seems like they are bored individuals who don't have employment with nothing else better to be doing

We have a whole thread on it actually. Makes for some loopy reading: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056353782

It originates (as most crazy things do) from the USA. I think there is a good RationalWiki here: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Freeman_on_the_land

Robbo

Robbo wrote: »

Spotted this on the Reddit yesterday.

Most of the content of every Irish Water thread ever, in bingo format.

Brilliant!

Carawaystick

brownej wrote: »

It's just shorthand for "the occupier of the premises in respect of which the water supply is provided".

Is occupier defined in the water service acts?
How does it deal with a home with several owners?

Gatling

How can a landlord be allowed to demand a tenants pps with the sole purpose of passing it on to iw

Pro Hoc Vice

:eek:

Carawaystick wrote: »

Is occupier defined in the water service acts?
How does it deal with a home with several owners?

Yes it does.

The 2007 Act defines Occupier as follows,

“ occupier ” includes any person entitled to occupy a premises and any other person having, for the time being, control of the premises;

No. 2 act of 2013 says,

“customer” means, in relation to the provision of water services, the occupier of the premises in respect of which the water services are provided;

Pro Hoc Vice

Gatling wrote: »

How can a landlord be allowed to demand a tenants pps with the sole purpose of passing it on to iw

He does not.

Gatling

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

He does not.

Seems to be a few landlords popping up saying there going to make tenants sign new contracts that allows them to pass any info including pps numbers to iw

Pro Hoc Vice

Gatling wrote: »

Seems to be a few landlords popping up saying there going to make tenants sign new contracts that allows them to pass any info including pps numbers to iw

http://www.water.ie/help-centre/questions-and-answers/what-should-you-do-as-a-landlord-or-as-a-tenant/

Carawaystick

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

:eek:

Yes it does.

The 2007 Act defines Occupier as follows,

“ occupier ” includes any person entitled to occupy a premises and any other person having, for the time being, control of the premises;

No. 2 act of 2013 says,

“customer” means, in relation to the provision of water services, the occupier of the premises in respect of which the water services are provided;

So customer can mean any person living in a house, including children?