Irish Water Discussion {MERGE}

Pro Hoc Vice · 03-10-2014 10:12pm

Carawaystick wrote: »

So customer can mean any person living in a house, including children?

If the children are the only people living in the house then yes, as a contract can be entered in to by a minor for essential services. But in reality it would be the adults who are customers, also as children have an allowance they should have no bill if no adults are in the house.

Five Lamps · 03-10-2014 11:05pm

Gatling wrote: »

How can a landlord be allowed to demand a tenants pps with the sole purpose of passing it on to iw

There should be no reason as it would be the tenant who needs to sign up with Irish Water like they do for other utilities.

If there is some reason for the LL to have the account in their name they it would be in the interest of the tenant to assist the LL in filling the forms so they get the benefit of the allowances.

Carawaystick · 03-10-2014 11:31pm

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

If the children are the only people living in the house then yes, as a contract can be entered in to by a minor for essential services. But in reality it would be the adults who are customers, also as children have an allowance they should have no bill if no adults are in the house.

If Occupier includes "includes any person entitled to occupy a premises"

and customer means occupier, then children are customers, and there appears to be to necessity to provide an adult ppsn.

As you point out water is an essential, there doesn't seem to be any reason for IW to prevent children entering into a contract ( apart from the credit aspect)

Pro Hoc Vice · 03-10-2014 11:35pm

Carawaystick wrote: »

If Occupier includes "includes any person entitled to occupy a premises"

and customer means occupier, then children are customers, and there appears to be to necessity to provide an adult ppsn.

As you point out water is an essential, there doesn't seem to be any reason for IW to prevent children entering into a contract ( apart from the credit aspect)

No.

Five Lamps · 03-10-2014 11:40pm

Carawaystick wrote: »

As you point out water is an essential, there doesn't seem to be any reason for IW to prevent children entering into a contract ( apart from the credit aspect)

There is. It's called common sense.

Going Forward · 03-10-2014 11:49pm

amen wrote: »

WOW. So since you have your own well I will assume you have a septic tank.

So taking a family of four the estimated cost for Irish water is €278 per year.

Taking the figures above your yearly cost is €487.50 and I haven't include the capital cost of the well.

Nor has the OP.........

Check out Grants for Wells

It's recurrent too, in that every 7 years you can apply for a grant for upgrade/repair of equipment.

dloob · 04-10-2014 12:58am

Gatling wrote: »

Seems to be a few landlords popping up saying there going to make tenants sign new contracts that allows them to pass any info including pps numbers to iw

They can't do that with pps numbers.
I have heard of some including as a condition of the lease that the tenant is responsible for paying water charges, so they are out if they don't.
That seems fair enough.

Esel · 04-10-2014 2:45am

Gatling wrote: »

Seems to be a few landlords popping up saying there going to make tenants sign new contracts that allows them to pass any info including pps numbers to iw

dloob wrote: »

They can't do that with pps numbers.
I have heard of some including as a condition of the lease that the tenant is responsible for paying water charges, so they are out if they don't.
That seems fair enough.

Any sitting tenant (sorry if that is not a legal term) who is asked for their PPS no. by their landlord might well ask for their landlord's PPS no. in return.

"I just need your PPS no. for this form."

"I'll give you my no. if you give me yours."

<pause>

"I'll see you next month so."

Graham · 04-10-2014 10:13am

Esel wrote: »

Any sitting tenant (sorry if that is not a legal term) who is asked for their PPS no. by their landlord might well ask for their landlord's PPS no. in return.

"I just need your PPS no. for this form."

"I'll give you my no. if you give me yours."

<pause>

"I'll see you next month so."

When a landlord registers a tenancy he/she is expected to supply the tenants PPS number so the chances are he/she already has the PPS number of current tenants.

Pro Hoc Vice · 04-10-2014 10:49am

Graham wrote: »

When a landlord registers a tenancy he/she is expected to supply the tenants PPS number so the chances are he/she already has the PPS number of current tenants.

He has the PPS number (private date) for the purpose of registering the tenancy, it may be a breach of data protection to use that private data for any other purpose.

Graham · 04-10-2014 10:57am

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

He has the PPS number (private date) for the purpose of registering the tenancy, it may be a breach of data protection to use that private data for any other purpose.

Absolutely, but it is going to limit the occurrences of the scenario painted by Esel.

Given that a tenancy has already been registered is there a statutory basis for IW to request the relevant details directly from the PRTB?

Five Lamps · 04-10-2014 10:59am

Esel wrote: »

Any sitting tenant (sorry if that is not a legal term) who is asked for their PPS no. by their landlord might well ask for their landlord's PPS no. in return.

"I just need your PPS no. for this form."

"I'll give you my no. if you give me yours."

<pause>

"I'll see you next month so."

Just serve them their notice so. It's a pretty straight forward.

The landlord can just return the form with the tenants name on it and leave it to them to apply for the water allowances.

Graham · 04-10-2014 12:23pm

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

He has the PPS number (private date) for the purpose of registering the tenancy, it may be a breach of data protection to use that private data for any other purpose.

You are right PHV (unless there are more recent changes I have missed):

11.3 Can my Landlord request my PPSN?

Yes, there is a statutory basis for a landlord to seek the PPSN of their tenants under the Residential Tenancies Act 2004 and section 11 of the Social Welfare (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2004. This information is required for registration with the Private Residential Tenancy Board (PRTB). However, Landlords are authorised to use the PPSN of tenants for registration with the PRTB only. No other use should be made of the PPSN and it must be kept confidential.

http://www.dataprotection.ie/docs/Use-of-PPSN/1247.htm

Five Lamps · 04-10-2014 4:29pm

Graham wrote: »

You are right PHV (unless there are more recent changes I have missed):

11.3 Can my Landlord request my PPSN?

Yes, there is a statutory basis for a landlord to seek the PPSN of their tenants under the Residential Tenancies Act 2004 and section 11 of the Social Welfare (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2004. This information is required for registration with the Private Residential Tenancy Board (PRTB). However, Landlords are authorised to use the PPSN of tenants for registration with the PRTB only. No other use should be made of the PPSN and it must be kept confidential.

http://www.dataprotection.ie/docs/Use-of-PPSN/1247.htm

LL doesn't need the PPS number. They can advise IW who the occupier is and let the tenant apply for the allowance if they want it.

04-10-2014 4:34pm

Five Lamps wrote: »

LL doesn't need the PPS number. They can advise IW who the occupier is and let the tenant apply for the allowance if they want it.

LL DOES need PPS No. However, he/she cannot divulge it to others. Tenents need to register themselves in order to get correct allowances.

Five Lamps · 04-10-2014 4:44pm

Deleted User wrote: »

LL DOES need PPS No. However, he/she cannot divulge it to others. Tenents need to register themselves in order to get correct allowances.

I mean for the purpose of opening an IW account - no PPS number is required unless you want to avail of the allowances that the Gov are offering.

Fred Swanson · 04-10-2014 5:42pm

This post has been deleted.

dragoneye · 05-10-2014 2:33am

What about the rights of the workers a lot of people seem to be talking about the rights of the protesters.. What about the iw workers who are been videoed in their place of work have they any say

Fred Swanson · 05-10-2014 2:40am

This post has been deleted.

Bepolite · 05-10-2014 4:25pm

dragoneye wrote: »

What about the rights of the workers a lot of people seem to be talking about the rights of the protesters.. What about the iw workers who are been videoed in their place of work have they any say

Must make for a very boring video. One guy working away, three more scratching their arses drinking tea. :pac:

That said any sort of harassment is reportable and arguably, depending on the situation standing their filming you could be taken as such.

actuallylike · 07-10-2014 12:15pm

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1482169232046620

More 'peaceful' protests. I think these people think that by using this term they can just do anything they like. Like if I was found murdering someone, all I'd have to say is "No, you've got it wrong. I'm actually not murdering someone". I'd get off scot free! Ah, the power of words :rolleyes:

whippet · 07-10-2014 12:36pm

'Peaceful protest' has now as much meaning in this context as 'are you on you oath'; 'no contract - no consent' and other such freeman dribblings

Paulw · 07-10-2014 1:13pm

Ok, I've a query.

http://www.water.ie/data-protection-notice/

"Irish Water will also request Personal Public Service numbers (PPS numbers) from customers. This information will only be used to verify and validate that customers are entitled to any relevant water allowances and will only be shared with the Department of Social Protection for this verification purpose."

The Data Protection Commission state that "In relation to retention of personal data, under the Data Protection Acts, an organisation can only retain data for as long as is necessary. The legislation does not set specific periods for different types of personal data so it is a matter for the organisation to compile retention periods which it can justify for personal data. Indefinite retention of personal data would not be compliant with the Data Protection Acts."

So, when you provide your PPS to Irish Water, they can ONLY use it to validate your allowance. Once this is validated, surely they must remove your PPS from their system, or else they are in breach of the Data Protection Act?

Am I reading this wrong?

Graham · 07-10-2014 1:19pm

Paulw wrote: »

So, when you provide your PPS to Irish Water, they can ONLY use it to validate your allowance. Once this is validated, surely they must remove your PPS from their system, or else they are in breach of the Data Protection Act?

Am I reading this wrong?

IW don't state how often they verify your allowances.

Paulw · 07-10-2014 1:42pm

Graham wrote: »

IW don't state how often they verify your allowances.

How often would they need to verify your allowance?

Graham · 07-10-2014 1:50pm

Paulw wrote: »

How often would they need to verify your allowance?

You would have to ask them.

It's quite possible they plan to verify periodically, it's also possible they'll never verify again. Maybe they will only verify when someone tries to claim the allowance against a new property in which case they may say they need to keep PPS numbers on record to make sure allowances aren't being claimed for the same PPS number in multiple properties.

Regardless of any of that, I would be very surprised if they hadn't already taken advice from the Data Protection Commissioner.

Paulw · 07-10-2014 1:58pm

Graham wrote: »

You would have to ask them.

I have tried to ask them and also the Data Protection Commission, and have been waiting for over a week for a response. The automated response from Irish Water says they expect to respond within 24 hours, but clearly they are not hitting their targets. :rolleyes:

Graham · 07-10-2014 2:03pm

Paulw wrote: »

I have tried to ask them and also the Data Protection Commission, and have been waiting for over a week for a response. The automated response from Irish Water says they expect to respond within 24 hours, but clearly they are not hitting their targets. :rolleyes:

Perhaps IW are concentrating their efforts in answering queries on the water service.

Would you rather IW employed an additional 100 people specifically to field this kind on enquiry?:rolleyes:

actuallylike · 07-10-2014 2:05pm

Paulw wrote: »

I have tried to ask them and also the Data Protection Commission, and have been waiting for over a week for a response. The automated response from Irish Water says they expect to respond within 24 hours, but clearly they are not hitting their targets. :rolleyes:

I'd say they have a huge unintended backlog due to them underestimating the amount of idiots in this country ringing up asking them about radiation, contracts, taxes, peaceful protests, constitutional rights, Bobby Sands and the GAA scores.

Paulw · 07-10-2014 2:16pm

Graham wrote: »

Perhaps IW are concentrating their efforts in answering queries on the water service.

Would you rather IW employed an additional 100 people specifically to field this kind on enquiry?:rolleyes:

I'd rather there was no Irish Water company set up to collect money from us. But, they already spent €60million on consultants, so I'm not surprised they don't have their information together, and from comments from TDs and ministers it's just a farce anyway.

I would assume that the majority of queries to Irish Water currently relate to the application and such, of which the PPS number is a part.

I guess they just don't know what they are doing.

Irish Water Discussion {MERGE}

Comments