Irish Water Discussion {MERGE}

Graham

Paulw wrote: »

I'd rather there was no Irish Water company set up to collect money from us. But, they already spent €60million on consultants, so I'm not surprised they don't have their information together, and from comments from TDs and ministers it's just a farce anyway.

I would assume that the majority of queries to Irish Water currently relate to the application and such, of which the PPS number is a part.

I guess they just don't know what they are doing.

I didn't suggest they didn't have the information, you did. You just appear to be upset that they don't have someone on standby 24/7 to respond to you.

I would imagine the same applies to the DPC who I have no doubt is receiving a large volume of queries from geniuses all over the country who think they've found a loophole.

Paulw

Graham wrote: »

I didn't suggest they didn't have the information, you did. You just appear to be upset that they don't have someone on standby 24/7 to respond to you.

I would imagine the same applies to the DPC who I have no doubt is receiving a large volume of queries from geniuses all over the country who think they've found a loophole.

No, I would only expect a timely response.

To me, that would be 5 working days.

The DPC automatic response says 15 working days, but they normally respond within 5. But, if a company says 24 hours, then I would hope that their response would be 2-3 days at worst, not still waiting over a week later.

I haven't been looking for any loophole, just raising a query as to the retention of data.

Graham

Paulw wrote: »

I haven't been looking for any loophole, just raising a query as to the retention of data.

Here you go:

From the PPSN Register of Users:

Irish Water

Updated: September 2014

1. Does your organisation use the PPSN at present?
Yes, it is requested as part of our customer validation process since 1 September 2014

2. If so, for what purpose?
Irish Water will use the PPSN to validate eligibility for water allowances

3. Does your organisation exchange the PPS number with any other body?
If so please name the relevant bodies and the purpose(s) of the exchange?

It is likely that the PPS Number will be shared with the Department of Social Protection for the purpose of validating PPS Numbers provided to us in respect of all water allowances. This arrangement has not been finalized at this time but we are engaging with the DSP.

4. Does your organisation have any other plans involving the use of the PPS number?
No

5. There are Eight Rules of Data Protection which govern the processing of personal data set out as follows: -
-Obtain and process the information fairly;
-Keep it only for one or more specified, explicit and lawful purposes;
-Process it only in ways compatible with the purposes for which it was given to you initially;
-Keep it safe and secure;
-Keep it accurate, complete and up-to-date;
-Ensure that it is adequate, relevant and not excessive;
-Retain it no longer than is necessary for the specified purpose or purposes;
-Give a copy of his/her personal data to an individual, on request.
Have you measures in place to ensure that the Public Service Identity data you hold /collect, whether held in electronic or written format is secure and that it is accessible and processed, only in connection with the purpose for which it has been provided?

Irish Water has implemented technical and procedural controls to protect customer data from unauthorised access, disclosure or modification and to comply with the principles of Data Protection legislation. In addition specific controls have been implemented in relation to the collection of the PPS Number to ensure it is accessible and processed, only in connection with the purpose for which it has been provided.

Specifically:

Obtain and process the information fairly;

Irish Water has obtained a limited amount of personal information under the powers granted to it in the Water Services Act 2013. The PPS Number information we require to manage water allowances will be provided directly to us by our customers and will only be processed in relation to water charges and allowances.

Keep it only for one or more specified, explicit and lawful purposes;

PPS Numbers will only be processed in relation to confirming eligibility for allowances and accurately calculating water charges.

Process it only in ways compatible with the purposes for which it was given to you initially;

PPS Numbers will only be processed in relation to confirming eligibility for allowances and accurately calculating water charges.

Keep it safe and secure;

Irish Water is working with ISO27001 and ISO9001 certified business partners to ensure PPS Numbers and other personal data of our customers is secured in line with best practice. Our staff receive information security and data protection training and sign an Acceptable Usage Policy for use of IT systems. Access to systems is granted on a strict “Need to know”, based on users roles within Irish Water. Irish Water has a formal Data Protection Policy, compliance to which is monitored by Risk Management, Information Security & Data Protection.

Keep it accurate, complete and up-to-date;

Customers will have several channels available to provide updates on their personal information. PPSN is not a field that will change for individuals, but we will have processes to remove details for children who are no longer eligible and for new additions.

Ensure that it is adequate, relevant and not excessive;

PPS Numbers are required to accurately apply tariffs and calculate charges. It will only be processed in relation to confirming eligibility for allowances and accurately calculating water charges.

Retain it no longer than is necessary for the specified purpose or purposes;

Irish Water is in the initial stages of gathering PPSN details from customers. Irish Water will remove individual PPSN details from our systems when the PPSN is no longer required to support a claim for a water allowance.

Give a copy of his/her personal data to an individual, on request;

Irish Water is part of the Ervia Group (formerly Bord Gáis Eireann) which has years of experience in managing data access requests. The Ervia data protection function is supporting Irish Water in ensuring it complies with legislation in dealing with access requests. The process for making data access requests is covered here on our website.

Paulw

Thanks. Out of curiosity, where did you find that?

Graham

Paulw wrote: »

Thanks. Out of curiosity, where did you find that?

PPSN Register of Users

http://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/PPSN-Register-of-Users---Other-Users.aspx

flutered

Graham wrote: »

Perhaps IW are concentrating their efforts in answering queries on the water service.

Would you rather IW employed an additional 100 people specifically to field this kind on enquiry?:rolleyes:

this post seems to gorget about the bonus which iw folk are enjoying.

flutered

actuallylike wrote: »

I'd say they have a huge unintended backlog due to them underestimating the amount of idiots in this country ringing up asking them about radiation, contracts, taxes, peaceful protests, constitutional rights, Bobby Sands and the GAA scores.

could it be that the fancy gym they got is getting quite a bit of use.

Going Forward

Graham wrote: »

PPSN Register of Users

http://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/PPSN-Register-of-Users---Other-Users.aspx

In the case of retention of PPSNs, the PPS data for an infant will be stored till the child reaches adulthood, to enable free allowances to continue to be offered-
spokesperson speaking to Matt Cooper, about a week ago.

I would have thought there would be some other less contentious method of checking whether allowances were still valid.

Graham

Going Forward wrote: »

I would have thought there would be some other less contentious method of checking whether allowances were still valid.

Before we start with the "won't somebody think of the children" chorus, I can't think of an alternative that would be as accurate or as cost effective.

Going Forward

Graham wrote: »

Before we start with the "won't somebody think of the children" chorus, I can't think of an alternative that would be as accurate or as cost effective.

An "expiry date" for allowances flag would be a relatively simple software solution alternative, and less contentious.

Just a thought...

rameire

Going Forward wrote: »

An "expiry date" for allowances flag would be a relatively simple software solution alternative, and less contentious.

Just a thought...

what if somebody who lives in another property who knows the pps number of that child, then uses that childs pps number for allowances.

if Irish Water keep the pps number on file, they will know its a duplicate request for the same pps.




and whats with people thinking Denis O Brien owns Irish water or has a say or share in them.
he doesnt he is 1 of the contractors that installs water meters, nothing else.

Graham

Going Forward wrote: »

An "expiry date" for allowances flag would be a relatively simple software solution alternative, and less contentious.

Just a thought...

You mean like a flag that is set when the child reaches adulthood? I thought you said they was th intention.

Out of nothing but curiosity, what is it that makes a child's ppsn particularly contentious for you?

Paulw

I've tried to read through the Water Services Act 2013 and the Water Services Act (2) 2013, but can't seem to find where it details an allowance of water, nor the requirement to validate an allowance against your PPS.

Anyone know where this is in legislation? Maybe it's not in the Water Services Act, but is somewhere else?

Going Forward

Graham wrote: »

You mean like a flag that is set when the child reaches adulthood? I thought you said they was th intention.

Out of nothing but curiosity, what is it that makes a child's ppsn particularly contentious for you?

My mistake, I was working on the assumption that they were also requesting DOB's, which they're not.
(No, not that DOB)

On the other issue, I'm not losing too much sleep over the PPS thing myself.

Victor

Paulw wrote: »

I've tried to read through the Water Services Act 2013 and the Water Services Act (2) 2013, but can't seem to find where it details an allowance of water, nor the requirement to validate an allowance against your PPS.

Anyone know where this is in legislation? Maybe it's not in the Water Services Act, but is somewhere else?

I'm not sure it would be in legislation. What might be in legislation (I haven't checked) is that the minister may be able to give high-level directions on pricing or other policies. The Budget (Finance Acts) will then specify the amount of money the government is willing to give Irish Water for a particular year. Irish Water then draft and the CER approves the tariff.

There was an announcement over the summer on Irish Water's spending plan to the end of 2016. There were then various comings and goings about allowances. Irish Water proposed a tariff and CER approved it last week.

You might check here: http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2014/statutory.html for ministerial orders. However, policy documents usually don't gain SI status.

FreudianSlippers

Yes, I think it's in the No. 2 act, but water pricing policy (or something of that ilk, I don't have the act in front of me) is controlled by the government, not UÉ

Carawaystick

Graham wrote: »

Before we start with the "won't somebody think of the children" chorus, I can't think of an alternative that would be as accurate or as cost effective.

Here's one:

I say I'm the customer at address X. 3 children live there, I and Y adults live there.

IW check with DSP that 3 children live at address X

DSP say yay or nay.

No ppsn's transferred.


Or another one
DSP pay the water allowance.

Little CuChulainn

Carawaystick wrote: »

Here's one:

I say I'm the customer at address X. 3 children live there, I and Y adults live there.

IW check with DSP that 3 children live at address X

DSP say yay or nay.

No ppsn's transferred.


Or another one
DSP pay the water allowance.

Pay what water allowance? What if the 3 children are in joint custofy and two people are claiming for them? The pps is the unique identifier used to check with the social. It doesn't give IW some power over your children.

Carawaystick

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Pay what water allowance?

You may or not have heard that there are allowances for children for their water useage. This is what I mean by Water allowance.

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

What if the 3 children are in joint custofy and two people are claiming for them? The pps is the unique identifier used to check with the social. It doesn't give IW some power over your children.

Where does the child benefit go? Is it split to the joint custodians?
As I understand it, it is only paid to one person.
The DSP will have one address for the children. This address will get the allowance for water.

Little CuChulainn

Carawaystick wrote: »

You may or not have heard that there are allowances for children for their water useage. This is what I mean by Water allowance..

I don't get what you mean by pay the allowance though. It's not a money allowance, it's a usage allowance.

Carawaystick wrote: »

Where does the child benefit go? Is it split to the joint custodians?
As I understand it, it is only paid to one person.
The DSP will have one address for the children. This address will get the allowance for water.

So you have no issue with them knowing how much you get in child benefit but have an issue with them having a pps number. Have you thought this through?

flutered

Carawaystick wrote: »

Here's one:

I say I'm the customer at address X. 3 children live there, I and Y adults live there.

IW check with DSP that 3 children live at address X

DSP say yay or nay.

No ppsn's transferred.


Or another one
DSP pay the water allowance.

but is that not too easy

flutered

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Pay what water allowance? What if the 3 children are in joint custofy and two people are claiming for them? The pps is the unique identifier used to check with the social. It doesn't give IW some power over your children.

the above arguement is twisted, it does not or will not stand to scruteny.

Ogham

Carawaystick wrote: »

Here's one:

I say I'm the customer at address X. 3 children live there, I and Y adults live there.

IW check with DSP that 3 children live at address X

DSP say yay or nay.

No ppsn's transferred.


Or another one
DSP pay the water allowance.

1) Using names and addresses is not reliable - especially outside towns. Not unique - mis spellings , etc etc

2) DSP paying an allowance that is not a fixed amount would be a problem for starters (upto 30k and upto 21k)

Main reason for keeping it away from DSP is that would increase welfare spending and create more "poverty traps" Govt didn't want that.

Basically govt are funding IW by buying about €300 million of water off them and telling them to give t as a free allowance to consumers.
It's a way of funding IW and also trying to make water affordable at the same time - but using funding that can be adjusted or tweaked at any time if / when IW become more efficient or they manage to borrow money off some anks or private investors in a couple of years time.

It's not IW fault they had to do it like that - it's govt's

Brian Lighthouse

Forgive my ignorance here, and I've been reading this form since the beginning and if it was mentioned - I apologise in advance - that would be down to bad memory.
I have heard a lot about statements along the lines of "We'll be paying for water twice when the charges come in".
Now I have asked people to explain where we are paying for it the first time and I'm unsure as no two answers are the same.
So here's my question: Where do we pay for water already?
Thanks.

Phoebas

Brian Lighthouse wrote: »

Forgive my ignorance here, and I've been reading this form since the beginning and if it was mentioned - I apologise in advance - that would be down to bad memory.
I have heard a lot about statements along the lines of "We'll be paying for water twice when the charges come in".
Now I have asked people to explain where we are paying for it the first time and I'm unsure as no two answers are the same.
So here's my question: Where do we pay for water already?
Thanks.

We previously paid for water by a mix of general taxation and government borrowings. With water charges, water will be paid for by a mix of general taxation, government borrowings and water charges.

We won't be paying twice - the ratios just change.

Brian Lighthouse

Thank you Phoebas,
That's what I thought, yet, I was getting more confused by the day, as one person made a compelling argument as to why we were going to be paying twice. Looks I got suckered in to the propaganda for an hour or two.
Thanks again.
Brian

Johnboy1951

Phoebas wrote: »

We previously paid for water by a mix of general taxation and government borrowings. With water charges, water will be paid for by a mix of general taxation, government borrowings and water charges.

We won't be paying twice - the ratios just change.

But would that not imply there should be a reduction in general taxation to balance the direct water charge? ..... cause I haven't heard of such a reduction ... or is there a quantifiable reduction in government borrowings equal to the collected water charges?

I am rather confused about this issue also, as is apparent

Little CuChulainn

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

But would that not imply there should be a reduction in general taxation to balance the direct water charge? ..... cause I haven't heard of such a reduction ... or is there a quantifiable reduction in government borrowings equal to the collected water charges?

I am rather confused about this issue also, as is apparent

The budget is not for another 8 weeks so you there won't be any tax deductions til then at the earliest.

Phoebas

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

But would that not imply there should be a reduction in general taxation to balance the direct water charge? ..... cause I haven't heard of such a reduction ... or is there a quantifiable reduction in government borrowings equal to the collected water charges?

I am rather confused about this issue also, as is apparent

During the financial collapse there has been a massive reduction in general taxation - many many billions of Euros. This pushed the ratio of water funding away from taxation and towards borrowings.

The introduction of charges will mainly effect the proportion that comes from borrowings, but we might also see some taxation decreases in the budget.

Phoebas

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

The budget is not for another 8 weeks so you there won't be any tax deductions til then at the earliest.

Next Tuesday actually.