Irish Water Discussion {MERGE}

Phoebas

Esel wrote: »

Do think that general taxes will be reduced when water charges come in?

Taxes have already been massively reduced, to the extent that we have to borrow hundreds of millions of euro every month to make up for the shortfall.

Wile E. Coyote

Esel wrote: »

Do think that general taxes will be reduced when water charges come in?

Why would general taxes be reduced when we're still borrowing billions each year? People seem to be under the impression that what we pay at the minute is enough to run the country when it couldn't be further from the truth.

Wile E. Coyote

Paulw wrote: »

Except for the fact that the Govt confirmed that people already pay for water service through their taxes. :eek:

http://directdemocracyireland.ie/coveney-makes-honest-mistake/

Would there be a legal case to take in relation to being charged twice for the same service? I don't see the Govt cutting other taxes, so that we are only paying for water once, via the water charges.

I am not refusing to pay for water, but I am refusing to pay twice.

You're not paying twice. Previously a portion of general taxation was allocated for water. Now you'll pay directly and general taxation will be allocated somewhere else.

NoQuarter

Where's the statutory basis for this? I assume there is one?

Rucking_Fetard

Same sh1te went round for the property tax.

lorenzo87

Froggy7 wrote: »

We are not proposing anything as we actually don't have all the answers to make an informed decision. We are just looking to obtain information about our rights and reassurance about a situation that is putting us under a lot of pressure. I hope this answers your question.

Pay your bills like everybody else.

ligertigon

lorenzo87 wrote: »

Pay your bills like everybody else.

I believe they require access to your property to install meter? And in many cases you own road frontage (its on your folio map).
Silence on your behalf, is taken as implying right of access by them.
Hence the site notices that many put up.

sin_26

Have a few questions.

Who payed for water till IW born? From what money? What happen with money which has been assigned for paying water before water charges if i will be obliged to pay again (twice in fact) for water distribution?
Is everyone belive that we got water FOR FREE? I mean....really?

lorenzo87

I don't see the big deal myself, the UK pay for water, why should we be any different?
We don't appreciate our natural resources in this country, never have done.
No matter what you say or do, nobody is going to get out of paying for water, one way or another.
These people that are taking out their water meters are still going to get bills sent to their house and if those bills aren't paid, you will be summonsed to court. If you want to go down that road, off you go, but I'd rather just pay the couple of hundred and be done with it.

the world wonders

NoQuarter wrote: »

Where's the statutory basis for this? I assume there is one?

Water Services Act 2013
Water Services (No. 2) Act 2013

Some relevant quotes:

“customer” means, in relation to the provision of water services, the occupier of the premises in respect of which the water services are provided;
...
21. (1) Subject to subsection (6), Irish Water shall charge each customer for the provision by it of water services.
...
(4) Where a customer fails to pay a charge under this section, it shall be recoverable by Irish Water as a simple contract debt in any court of competent jurisdiction.

So all that common law stuff about offer/acceptance/consideration is irrelevant, the law specifically creates an obligation to pay your water bill regardless.

Paulw wrote:

I am not refusing to pay for water, but I am refusing to pay twice.

I do have some sympathy for this argument, especially now that they're floating rumours about cutting tax for higher earners next budget, but it's a political argument, not a legal one.

JustAddWater

Wile E. Coyote wrote: »

You're not paying twice. Previously a portion of general taxation was allocated for water. Now you'll pay directly and general taxation will be allocated somewhere else.

I AM paying twice. If I pay my water charge and paye remains the same

The government can spend what portion of my paye they used to pay for water with, on party balloons now for all I know, but who's still paying for it? Me and you is who

sin_26

lorenzo87 wrote: »

I don't see the big deal myself, the UK pay for water, why should we be any different?
We don't appreciate our natural resources in this country, never have done.
No matter what you say or do, nobody is going to get out of paying for water, one way or another.
These people that are taking out their water meters are still going to get bills sent to their house and if those bills aren't paid, you will be summonsed to court. If you want to go down that road, off you go, but I'd rather just pay the couple of hundred and be done with it.

This not make any sense. You have been supplied in water not from today. Who pyed for your supplies before? About UK your logic is flawed. For example if in Iraq for theft is death sentence why should be any different here? We should get over it? Dreams of all govermens-obeyed citizens. Sad but true.

ligertigon

lorenzo87 wrote: »

I don't see the big deal myself, the UK pay for water, why should we be any different?
We don't appreciate our natural resources in this country, never have done.
No matter what you say or do, nobody is going to get out of paying for water, one way or another.
These people that are taking out their water meters are still going to get bills sent to their house and if those bills aren't paid, you will be summonsed to court. If you want to go down that road, off you go, but I'd rather just pay the couple of hundred and be done with it.

We should be different to the UK, thats what 1916 was all about.
we do appreciate our natural resources, chlorinated and flouridated water is not one of them.
Some people will get out of paying.

I appreciate the expense of water treatment, pumping, and sewage treatment. But it was already paid for by taxes, and now has been reinvented as another tax.
Roll over and take it, but you'll be rolling over again for the next.
I think the real problem in all of this, is water wastage...

lorenzo87

sin_26 wrote: »

This not make any sense. You have been supplied in water not from today. Who pyed for your supplies before? About UK your logic is flawed. For example if in Iraq for theft is death sentence why should be any different here? We should get over it? Dreams of all govermens-obeyed citizens. Sad but true.

All I am saying is people can give out all they like about it, the easiest option is to pay. If they didn't bring in the water charges, they would have got it some other way.

sin_26

lorenzo87 wrote: »

All I am saying is people can give out all they like about it, the easiest option is to pay. If they didn't bring in the water charges, they would have got it some other way.

I know. If i will be assaulted by thug easiest way will be to give him my hard earned money. Please God dont try to defend yourself. Hope that after my few comments you see my point. Water charges are one of EU condition for Irish goverment once they needed bailout. Anyway. Consume and obey. "Be good citizen...

lorenzo87

sin_26 wrote: »

I know. If i will be assaulted by thug easiest way will be to give him my hard earned money. Please God dont try to defend yourself. Hope that after my few comments you see my point. Water charges are one of EU condition for Irish goverment once they needed bailout. Anyway. Consume and obey. "Be good citizen...

I am speaking as a person that disobeyed the law on many a time. And boy have I learnt my lesson the hard way.

If there are any ways around this water charge, I'd love to hear it?

Carawaystick

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

Considering everyone connected to supply is a customer is not an unfair term.

UÉ want people *not* connected to the sewer or water mains to tell UÉ, instead of UÉ figuring this out themselves

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

The price has been disclosed.

The cer have not signed off on the price.

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

The other issue if they arise are contract issues and if a person feels aggrieved by service they can either bring a case or decide to not avail of the service.

Consumer Rights aren't contract issues. UÉ are a monopoly, and tina. It's not like telecoms, electricity or gas.


A further concern is the data protection issues UÉ are going to export customer data out of the EEA, where there will be no accountability for privacy.

UÉ want to make the customer responsible for the security of any email communications from UÉ. UÉ could use email encryption, to prevent almost all third party interceptions, for example.

UÉ want to use customer data for credit checking purposes, but as they have to bill in arrears, they have to supply water and wastewater services on credit anyway.

Carawaystick

Wile E. Coyote wrote: »

You're not paying twice. Previously a portion of general taxation was allocated for water. Now you'll pay directly and general taxation will be allocated somewhere else.

But domestic consumers will pay more than commercial water services users. If the cost of water services is met by the domestic rate, then domestic customers are subsidising commercial customers; or if commercial customers are meeting the cost, then domestic customers are going to be overcharged.

Cryos

Carawaystick wrote: »

But domestic consumers will pay more than commercial water services users. If the cost of water services is met by the domestic rate, then domestic customers are subsidising commercial customers; or if commercial customers are meeting the cost, then domestic customers are going to be overcharged.

To boil 2 litres of water a day, service 3 toilets and to wash 1 car a day is costing my business 350 per quater, i dont think its being subsidized it anyway.

Domestic customers are certainly not paying more than commercial, not by a long shot in 90% of cases.

Carawaystick

Cryos wrote: »

To boil 2 litres of water a day, service 3 toilets and to wash 1 car a day is costing my business 350 per quater, i dont think its being subsidized it anyway.

Domestic customers are certainly not paying more than commercial, not by a long shot in 90% of cases.

Whats the cost per litre for your water?
is it more or less than the 0.488 cents per litre?

Do you think Diageo are paying the same rate?

Cryos

Carawaystick wrote: »

Whats the cost per litre for your water?
is it more or less than the 0.488 cents per litre?

Do you think Diageo are paying the same rate?

To be up front and honest with you looking at the bill it doesnt quantify in litres.

For one part of the unit:
Metered Water used m3 x63 1.41100 = 88.89
Metered Wastewater M3 x63 1.63400 = 102.94
Meter Management x1 15 = 15
Water Service Availability x3 8.33333 = 25
Waste Water Serv Availability x3 8.33333 = 25
Sub Total is 256.83.

For the second Part

Metered Water used m3 x15 1.41100 = 21.16
Metered Wastewater M3 x15 1.63400 = 24.51
Meter Management x1 15 = 15
Water Service Availability x3 8.33333 = 25
Waste Water Serv Availability x3 8.33333 = 25
Sub Total is 110.67
Total 367.50

You may be able to make more sense with that than i, that's billing for 31/12/13 to 31/03/14; I wouldnt expect to pay the same as that in my home.

Diageo, definately not and the same as coke but thats an IDA mess; And trust me for a 5 Employee Small business as myself, i dont have any ministers i can bend ears on!

gctest50

Cryos wrote: »

To be up front and honest with you looking at the bill it doesnt quantify in litres.

For one part of the unit:
Metered Water used m3 x63 1.41100 = 88.89 ................

??

m3 = 1000 litres ?

Cryos

gctest50 wrote: »

??

m3 = 1000 litres ?

Snippet from the sheet, thoughts ? Maybe Wicklow Co. Co think i am diageo ?

Victor

Carawaystick wrote: »

UÉ want people *not* connected to the sewer or water mains to tell UÉ, instead of UÉ figuring this out themselves

You want them to waste money wandering the country checking a few million sewers? It will suit most people to say whether they are or aren't connected.

Consumer Rights aren't contract issues. UÉ are a monopoly, and tina. It's not like telecoms, electricity or gas.

How come? Invariably ther eis one telephone wire, one electricity wire and one gas pipe going to every premises.

A further concern is the data protection issues UÉ are going to export customer data out of the EEA

What is your basis for believing this?

UÉ want to make the customer responsible for the security of any email communications from UÉ. UÉ could use email encryption, to prevent almost all third party interceptions, for example.

You mean no different from anyone else?

UÉ want to use customer data for credit checking purposes, but as they have to bill in arrears, they have to supply water and wastewater services on credit anyway.

And what of 'new' customers - people who have moved after not paying their bills?

Cryos wrote: »

To be up front and honest with you looking at the bill it doesnt quantify in litres.

For one part of the unit:
Metered Water used m3 x63 1.41100 = 88.89
Metered Wastewater M3 x63 1.63400 = 102.94
Meter Management x1 15 = 15
Water Service Availability x3 8.33333 = 25
Waste Water Serv Availability x3 8.33333 = 25
Sub Total is 256.83.

For the second Part

Metered Water used m3 x15 1.41100 = 21.16
Metered Wastewater M3 x15 1.63400 = 24.51
Meter Management x1 15 = 15
Water Service Availability x3 8.33333 = 25
Waste Water Serv Availability x3 8.33333 = 25
Sub Total is 110.67
Total 367.50

You may be able to make more sense with that than i, that's billing for 31/12/13 to 31/03/14; I wouldnt expect to pay the same as that in my home.

Diageo, definately not and the same as coke but thats an IDA mess; And trust me for a 5 Employee Small business as myself, i dont have any ministers i can bend ears on!

That equates to €4.71 per m3 (old price) instead of €4.88 (proposed price).

Carawaystick wrote: »

But domestic consumers will pay more than commercial water services users. If the cost of water services is met by the domestic rate, then domestic customers are subsidising commercial customers; or if commercial customers are meeting the cost, then domestic customers are going to be overcharged.

Whut? Consumers won't be paying anywhere near the full cost of water - it is still being subsidised by general taxation.

Carawaystick

a metre cubed ( m^3) is a thousand litres

it looks like 78000 litres
which would be 380 euros on the domestic tariff

78 * 4.88 is EUR380.64



Just for a comparison, I pay 59.22 Euros per cubic metre for natural gas, which is rare, explosive, poisonous, and pumped under the irish sea from at least as far away as Scotland, and even then its from off the east coast of that country.

You are dead right, the ida and big multinationals have it sewn up to screw the small fella.

Plus Irish water have a cartel with bananas public sector pensions and pay.

Victor

Carawaystick wrote: »

Plus Irish water have a cartel with bananas public sector pensions and pay.

Do you realise how ridiculous your posts are sounding?

Its Fyffes and Chiquita are working on the banana monopoly. http://www.irishtimes.com/business/sectors/agribusiness-and-food/fyffes-and-chiquita-go-on-banana-merger-offensive-1.1915814

Esel

@Victor: Can't see how you calculated that at €4.71 per m3?

Going Forward

Carawaystick wrote: »

UÉ want people *not* connected to the sewer or water mains to tell UÉ, instead of UÉ figuring this out themselves

Are the "application" packs personally addressed?

Not postal registered -
I never got it / I sent mine off already.......bit like fixed charged notices.

"You are not asked to provide a signature on the form but, by
completing and returning the form, you declare that all of the
information provided is to your knowledge true. We ask that
you tick the box to confirm you have read and understood the
declaration."

Why do they specifically not require a signature?

(I'll be ticking the box to make sure I receive some very special offers from Irish Water's carefully selected partners. -I might find a cheap brick to put in my cistern.)


"If you don’t contact us or we don’t receive an application online, by telephone or by post from you, your bills will based on the details we have about your household. If you have an Irish Water installed water meter, we will charge you for water services based on water meter readings. If you do not have an Irish Water installed water meter, we will charge you based on the information available to us in accordance with the approved water charges plan."

What details do Irish Water have about "households"?

For certain households, those with non-dependent adults, will not returning the forms work out cheaper than being billed or assessed?

The really brave can claim that they have a well, their own supply, or are part of a group scheme etc., and Irish Water promise not to contact you again (ever?).

Pro Hoc Vice

ligertigon wrote: »

We should be different to the UK, thats what 1916 was all about.
we do appreciate our natural resources, chlorinated and flouridated water is not one of them.
Some people will get out of paying.

I appreciate the expense of water treatment, pumping, and sewage treatment. But it was already paid for by taxes, and now has been reinvented as another tax.
Roll over and take it, but you'll be rolling over again for the next.
I think the real problem in all of this, is water wastage...

O for **** sake so the money you paid 10 years ago paid the guys wagess for life,

Pro Hoc Vice

Its scary how many thick ***** are on this web site.