Guinness Pro12 2014/2015 Season thread

its_phil

Brianderunner wrote: »

It's looking like Ospreys are sure of a home semi after last night with only Connaught to play last.


The 2nd home semi spot is between Glasgow and Munster imo, hard to see how Ulster can get one. They have to beat both Munster and Glasgow to get one and I cant see that happening.

Never heard of "Connaught Rugby", have heard of Connacht

Reverand_Misty

A draw tonight with an Ulster try BP would mean a tasty enough last round

jacothelad

its_phil wrote: »

Never heard of "Connaught Rugby", have heard of Connacht

The name Connacht comes from the medieval ruling dynasty, the Connacht, later Connachta, whose name means "descendants of Conn", from the mythical king Conn of the Hundred Battles. Originally Connacht was a singular collective noun, but it came to be used only in the plural Connachta, partly by analogy with plural names of other dynastic territories like Ulaid and Laigin, and partly because the Connachta split into different branches.[6] Before the Connachta dynasty, the province (cúige, "fifth") was known as Cóiced Ol nEchmacht. In Modern Irish, the province is usually called Cúige Chonnacht, "the Province of Connacht", where Chonnacht is plural genitive case with lenition of the C to Ch.
The usual English spelling in Ireland since the Gaelic revival is Connacht, the spelling of the disused Irish singular. The official English spelling during English and British rule was the anglicisation Connaught, pronounced /kɒnɔːt/ or /kɒnət/.[7] This was used for the Connaught Rangers in the British Army; in the title of Queen Victoria's son Arthur, Duke of Connaught; and the Connaught Hotel, London, named after the Duke in 1917. Usage of the Connaught spelling is now in decline. State bodies use Connacht, for example in Central Statistics Office census reports since 1926,[8] and the name of the Connacht–Ulster European Parliament constituency of 1979–2004,[9][10][11] although Connaught occurs in some statutes.[12][13] Among newspapers, the Connaught Telegraph (founded 1830) retains the anglicised spelling in its name, whereas the Connacht Tribune (founded 1909) uses the Gaelic.

Buer

If Ulster win tonight, it pretty much means any sort of wins for Ospreys and Glasgow in the final round gives them the home semi finals.

Munster will be able to get to 74 points with a losing bonus today and a 5 pointer next week but they'll have only won 15 games to the 16 of the other two teams.

its_phil

jacothelad wrote: »

The name Connacht comes from the medieval ruling dynasty, the Connacht, later Connachta, whose name means "descendants of Conn", from the mythical king Conn of the Hundred Battles. Originally Connacht was a singular collective noun, but it came to be used only in the plural Connachta, partly by analogy with plural names of other dynastic territories like Ulaid and Laigin, and partly because the Connachta split into different branches.[6] Before the Connachta dynasty, the province (cúige, "fifth") was known as Cóiced Ol nEchmacht. In Modern Irish, the province is usually called Cúige Chonnacht, "the Province of Connacht", where Chonnacht is plural genitive case with lenition of the C to Ch.
The usual English spelling in Ireland since the Gaelic revival is Connacht, the spelling of the disused Irish singular. The official English spelling during English and British rule was the anglicisation Connaught, pronounced /kɒnɔːt/ or /kɒnət/.[7] This was used for the Connaught Rangers in the British Army; in the title of Queen Victoria's son Arthur, Duke of Connaught; and the Connaught Hotel, London, named after the Duke in 1917. Usage of the Connaught spelling is now in decline. State bodies use Connacht, for example in Central Statistics Office census reports since 1926,[8] and the name of the Connacht–Ulster European Parliament constituency of 1979–2004,[9][10][11] although Connaught occurs in some statutes.[12][13] Among newspapers, the Connaught Telegraph (founded 1830) retains the anglicised spelling in its name, whereas the Connacht Tribune (founded 1909) uses the Gaelic.

Ah yeah trust the northener to bring up the Queen at the slightest possibility

:pac:

jacothelad

its_phil wrote: »

Ah yeah trust the northener to bring up the Queen at the slightest possibility

:pac:

Queen Vicky....or Sheila as she liked to be known when out at the rugby.... is actually dead....:D:D:D

CatFromHue

Top 3 teams on 70 points now with Ulster in 4th on 69!

Next week it's

Conn v Ospreys
Glasgow v Ulster
Mun v Dragons

.ak

I can see 2 home teams winning with Ospreys winning on the road there.

Tin Foil Hat

Whatever else happens over the next few weeks, the 2014/2015 Pro12 has been cracking good fun to watch. One point between the top four with one round left! You couldn't write it. Brilliant stuff.

I

total former

Will be interesting to see who televises what next week.

Tie of the round is obviously Glasgow v Ulster. I know Sky had the Ravenhill game which should mean they can't have this one, but wasn't that first game also on BBC NI? So maybe Sky will get it.

Otherwise I suppose TG4 will show Munster and the Leinster and Connacht games will be dark.

vienne86

total former wrote: »

Will be interesting to see who televises what next week.

Tie of the round is obviously Glasgow v Ulster. I know Sky had the Ravenhill game which should mean they can't have this one, but wasn't that first game also on BBC NI? So maybe Sky will get it.

Otherwise I suppose TG4 will show Munster and the Leinster and Connacht games will be dark.

I would have thought BBC would have shown the Ulster v Glasgow game which would let Sky have this one. The Leinster match will probably be consigned to Alba.

OldRio

Both BBC NI and Alba will have Glasgow v Ulster I would imagine.

CatFromHue

In The Times TV listings for next Sat they have BBC showing the Ulster game.

total former

BBC are now reporting the potential departure of the Italian sides, doesn't seem to be any new information in it, but interesting nonetheless.
http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/rugby-union/32682160

I dunno, would it be the worst thing in the world if they bailed out? This is the fifth season of the Italian involvement, Aironi/Zebre have finished bottom every year and Treviso are in reverse gear after their 7th place a couple of seasons ago. Could London Scottish/Welsh be that much worse? Or would they at least have the prospect of improving?

For the Italians themselves, what are they getting out of it? Has it helped their national team? It wouldn't appear so. Would the FIR be better off just concentrating on their national league?

thomond2006

If they don't pay they should be thrown out. This isn't a charity.

LS and LW would be the victims of Premiership ringfencing so it makes sense for them to join.

What would happen to the Italians' guaranteed spot in the Champions Cup is an interesting question. Would the Super 10 champions simply be given a spot?

aimee1

thomond2006 wrote: »

If they don't pay they should be thrown out. This isn't a charity.

LS and LW would be the victims of Premiership ringfencing so it makes sense for them to join.

What would happen to the Italians' guaranteed spot in the Champions Cup is an interesting question. Would the Super 10 champions simply be given a spot?

Would imagine they would be given a spot, or maybe a spot in a playoff

irishbucsfan

thomond2006 wrote: »

If they don't pay they should be thrown out. This isn't a charity.

Except for the Welsh, Scottish and Irish clubs, who don't have to pay this fee...

thomond2006

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Except for the Welsh, Scottish and Irish clubs, who don't have to pay this fee...

Which is of no relevance to the Italians paying or not paying. If they didn't like the fee then don't join the league.

aimee1

thomond2006 wrote: »

Which is of no relevance to the Italians paying or not paying. If they didn't like the fee then don't join the league.

Why were they expected to pay the fee if the other clubs dont have to?

irishbucsfan

thomond2006 wrote: »

Which is of no relevance to the Italians paying or not paying. If they didn't like the fee then don't join the league.

The legitimacy of the fee is absolutely relevant when the punishment is expulsion. The other Unions should not be expelling the Italians over being incapable of paying them this ridiculous fee.

If the inclusion of the Italian sides in the league is anything other than a money-grab then now is the time to show it by abolishing the fee and allowing these sides to use that money to build their own squads and become competitive, which is far more valuable to everyone in the long term.

CIARAN_BOYLE

aimee1 wrote: »

Why were they expected to pay the fee if the other clubs dont have to?

They came into an established league and asked all other teams to pay increased travel costs, and divide the sponsorship pot further. No italian sponsors secondary for the league so far.

The italians were told they could join if they paid a fee. The fee was reduced after the first season and the fee would be waived when the league attracted italian sponsorship.

molloyjh

irishbucsfan wrote: »

The legitimacy of the fee is absolutely relevant when the punishment is expulsion. The other Unions should not be expelling the Italians over being incapable of paying them this ridiculous fee.

If the inclusion of the Italian sides in the league is anything other than a money-grab then now is the time to show it by abolishing the fee and allowing these sides to use that money to build their own squads and become competitive, which is far more valuable to everyone in the long term.

Haven't they already come to an agreement with the FIR on this? I thought that's what the issue was a couple of seasons back when there was talk of the Italians pulling out (and then Treviso announced that they would pull out). Didn't they agree to either abolish or reduce the fee?

Cookiemunster

molloyjh wrote: »

Haven't they already come to an agreement with the FIR on this? I thought that's what the issue was a couple of seasons back when there was talk of the Italians pulling out (and then Treviso announced that they would pull out). Didn't they agree to either abolish or reduce the fee?

They have. The Italians are an equal partner in the Pro12 since July 1st 2014. http://www.irishrugby.ie/news/30021.php

wp_rathead

Pro 12 Dream Team

Rhys Webb got 10 tries in 11 appearances, that Is amazing
When you count the 6 Nations he had, lad had hell of a season

irishbucsfan

molloyjh wrote: »

Haven't they already come to an agreement with the FIR on this? I thought that's what the issue was a couple of seasons back when there was talk of the Italians pulling out (and then Treviso announced that they would pull out). Didn't they agree to either abolish or reduce the fee?

Yeah they used to pay 3 million. It's been a joke since the very beginning, a monetisation of the league under the guise of developing the game in Italy and falsely justified due to "extra costs."

It may be better for them to go their own way and throw more weight behind the European 3rd tier. Maybe the future for them is in the Super rugby 10 after all.

molloyjh

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Yeah they used to pay 3 million. It's been a joke since the very beginning, a monetisation of the league under the guise of developing the game in Italy and falsely justified due to "extra costs."

It may be better for them to go their own way and throw more weight behind the European 3rd tier. Maybe the future for them is in the Super rugby 10 after all.

I don't know enough about the ins-and-outs of the whole thing from a finance perspective. I thought the Italians were paying that bond because they were bringing no finance of their own to the table. If so then it would be a bit much to get the other Unions to subsidise them, especially in a case like Treviso when there's private backing involved too. How/if that's changed over the years I'm not sure. Either way they are now equal partners so I'm assuming that the money owed is outstanding debt that the Italians agreed to pay off as part of the negotiations last year.

OldRio

If you don't pay your bills there are consequences.

total former

Yep, so it looks like I had it right....

Glasgow v Ulster has now appeared on the Sky TV listings and vanished from the BBC NI listings...
http://www1.skysports.com/watch/rugby-union-on-sky
http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbctwo/programmes/schedules/ni/2015/05/16

Edit:
TG4 still have a time allocated so I'd guess they're showing Munster. Alba most likely showing Edinburgh v Leinster.

irishbucsfan

molloyjh wrote: »

I don't know enough about the ins-and-outs of the whole thing from a finance perspective. I thought the Italians were paying that bond because they were bringing no finance of their own to the table. If so then it would be a bit much to get the other Unions to subsidise them, especially in a case like Treviso when there's private backing involved too. How/if that's changed over the years I'm not sure. Either way they are now equal partners so I'm assuming that the money owed is outstanding debt that the Italians agreed to pay off as part of the negotiations last year.

No... they still have to make ongoing payments. Until they bring forward a sponsor

The original payments have been justified in many different ways, none of which are really satisfactory. If we are selling them an opportunity to play with us then that's fine, but it's disingenuous to call them equal partners publicly at the same time, or to pretend there is anything developmental about it, the only reason they did that was to gain political capital at European negotiations.

molloyjh

irishbucsfan wrote: »

No... they still have to make ongoing payments. Until they bring forward a sponsor

The original payments have been justified in many different ways, none of which are really satisfactory. If we are selling them an opportunity to play with us then that's fine, but it's disingenuous to call them equal partners publicly at the same time, or to pretend there is anything developmental about it, the only reason they did that was to gain political capital at European negotiations.

I think that's very cynical. Each Union obviously has to being something to the table to make the league feasible. If they can't do that through sponsorship then the bond idea is fair enough I think. The other Unions aren't charities. And assuming (and it is just an assumption on my part) that all partners are obliged to bring in a certain amount of money into the league then expecting the same of the Italians is equal.

Magico Gonzalez

Shame for Treviso who are competitive, the other lot won't be missed. I'm not sure what message it sends out including two second tier (L Welsh & L Scottish) teams in their absence.

Both would dilute the quality of the league. Do either have stadiums and adequate finances and supporter numbers to add anything? I guess there aren't a rake of alternative candidates which is a shame, but 2 more whipping boys (i'd be hugely surprised to see them finish above 11th & 12th) won't do much for the league credibility.

irishbucsfan

molloyjh wrote: »

I think that's very cynical. Each Union obviously has to being something to the table to make the league feasible. If they can't do that through sponsorship then the bond idea is fair enough I think. The other Unions aren't charities. And assuming (and it is just an assumption on my part) that all partners are obliged to bring in a certain amount of money into the league then expecting the same of the Italians is equal.

The bond idea was a million miles from being "fair enough." The Italians were paying 3 million euro while the Scots were paying absolutely nothing. If people just want to ignore it then that's fine, but personally I hope the Italians walk away from this and invest the money into their own league.

If LS and LW are going to sign up, and I'd be interested to see what they can bring to the table, then I hope they aren't faced with a ludicrous 3 million euro annual bond to do so, and can instead use that money to build competitive squads, at least the FIR had World Rugby to help them meet the liability.

Cookiemunster

They don't owe the full €1.5m, some of the debt has been paid, and some is outstanding. Negotiations with the Italians clubs over a payment schedule are ongoing and should be concluded very shortly. The Italians hare not going to be thrown out and there has been no contact , formal or informal, with London Scottish, London Welsh, London Irish or any club about possible participation.

https://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/2015/0511/700341-zebre-treviso-guiness-pro-12/

molloyjh

irishbucsfan wrote: »

The bond idea was a million miles from being "fair enough." The Italians were paying 3 million euro while the Scots were paying absolutely nothing. If people just want to ignore it then that's fine, but personally I hope the Italians walk away from this and invest the money into their own league.

If LS and LW are going to sign up, and I'd be interested to see what they can bring to the table, then I hope they aren't faced with a ludicrous 3 million euro annual bond to do so, and can instead use that money to build competitive squads, at least the FIR had World Rugby to help them meet the liability.

But the Italians struggled to even get a broadcaster, much less other sponsorship money. The Scots have always been able to get TV sponsorship at least, if not other sponsorship as well. They may not have been paying directly, but they were bringing something to the table. As I've already said the Unions are not charities and the Italians needed to bring something to the table too. If they couldn't raise the funds through sponsorship then what other option was there?

Plus if they didn't like it they didn't have to sign up. It's not like anyone else was doing anything for them so knocking the Pro12 Unions for doing that seems a bit much when it was more than anyone else was doing.

its_phil

molloyjh wrote: »

But the Italians struggled to even get a broadcaster, much less other sponsorship money. The Scots have always been able to get TV sponsorship at least, if not other sponsorship as well. They may not have been paying directly, but they were bringing something to the table. As I've already said the Unions are not charities and the Italians needed to bring something to the table too. If they couldn't raise the funds through sponsorship then what other option was there?

Plus if they didn't like it they didn't have to sign up. It's not like anyone else was doing anything for them so knocking the Pro12 Unions for doing that seems a bit much when it was more than anyone else was doing.

I don't remember if I read this or just have the idea in my head, but doesn't the broadcasting money from Italy just go into the back pocket of Italy and then the Celtic TV money shared between the Celts?

molloyjh

its_phil wrote: »

I don't remember if I read this or just have the idea in my head, but doesn't the broadcasting money from Italy just go into the back pocket of Italy and then the Celtic TV money shared between the Celts?

I haven't the foggiest. Which is probably a good reason for me not discussing this, but what the hey!

its_phil

It seems Edinburgh behind-the-scenes is in quite a bit of disaray.

http://www.fergusonmedia.co.uk/?p=552

Akrasia

It would be a terrible admission of failure in European rugby if after 15 years of 6 nations rugby, the Italians can't even field two competitive teams, or gather enough national interest to secure television coverage and a decent sponsorship deal.

its_phil

its_phil wrote: »

It seems Edinburgh behind-the-scenes is in quite a bit of disaray.

http://www.fergusonmedia.co.uk/?p=552

Interesting read, some genuine concerns mixed in with a bit of whinging.

thomond2006

15 hours to get to Bordeaux....

molloyjh

thomond2006 wrote: »

15 hours to get to Bordeaux....

That's a disgrace. Even the stuff about the Challenge Cup Final is ridiculous. It really makes the SRU look bad that they allowed this to go on despite the complaints from players and staff in Edinburgh.

Buer

Silver lining here for Leinster and Connacht. A team in such disharmony and disarray won't be too focused in their last game of the season.

thelad95

Magico Gonzalez wrote: »

Shame for Treviso who are competitive, the other lot won't be missed. I'm not sure what message it sends out including two second tier (L Welsh & L Scottish) teams in their absence.

Both would dilute the quality of the league. Do either have stadiums and adequate finances and supporter numbers to add anything? I guess there aren't a rake of alternative candidates which is a shame, but 2 more whipping boys (i'd be hugely surprised to see them finish above 11th & 12th) won't do much for the league credibility.

Neither Treviso nor Zebre have been competitive this season. Treviso had a good first three seasons but have been robbed of most of their best players from that period.

thomond2006

molloyjh wrote: »

That's a disgrace. Even the stuff about the Challenge Cup Final is ridiculous. It really makes the SRU look bad that they allowed this to go on despite the complaints from players and staff in Edinburgh.

Tbh I think giving that member of staff an hour to clear her desk is worse in a way.

OldRio

its_phil wrote: »

It seems Edinburgh behind-the-scenes is in quite a bit of disaray.

http://www.fergusonmedia.co.uk/?p=552

Shocking stuff.
'Ladies' eating pizza at 1 o'clock in the morning. Horrid thought.

b.gud

Times announced for final games http://www.irishrugby.ie/news/34555.php#.VVIZOmRVhBc

Saturday, May 16 - Benetton Treviso v Scarlets - kick-off 4pm - Nuvolari TV/BBC 2 Wales
Saturday, May 16 - Connacht v Ospreys - kick-off 3pm - S4C
Saturday, May 16 - Edinburgh v Leinster - kick-off 3pm - BBC ALBA
Saturday, May 16 - Glasgow Warriors v Ulster - kick-off 3pm - Sky Sports 1 HD
Saturday, May 16 - Munster v Newport Gwent Dragons - kick-off 3pm - TG4

thomond2006

10 out of the 12 teams have something to play for at the weekend (the exceptions are Dragons and Cardiff). I don't think we could have said that in previous seasons.

CatFromHue

Well Leinster don't really have anything to play for either

sydthebeat

CatFromHue wrote: »

Well Leinster don't really have anything to play for either

they do, win to cement the 3rd seeding (sad to say)

Tin Foil Hat

So, when are fixture times announced and tickets on sale?