Well done Aer Lingus

SaveOurLyric

tayto lover wrote: »

Then why can't they sit down with the workers and agree a roster? Simple thing to do and will happen in the end as usual.

By Jove you've got it!

Agree a roster. No customer disruption, no loss of revenue, happy cabin crew.

AL just havent thought of that one. Hopefully they read boards.ie and will realise thats the solution, since, as you say, it is easy to agree a new roster.

gandalf

About time AL took a stance like this. They used to be my airline of choice going away. These days (when I finally get to go away again) they will be my last choice. I am not going to risk my holidays being ruined by people who haven't grasped the reality of their industry.

SaveOurLyric

curioser wrote: »

(Similar scenario to the Bausch & Lomb set up in Waterford, where the company puts a package that they know is unacceptable to the workforce, thereby setting up a position where they close down the plant, which is what they intended to do in the first place.)

So the sensible action is to call their bluff and find out. Take the pay cut. Its a free bet, and if luckily you are wrong, and they didnt intend to shut, then you stay in a job.

ProfessorPlum

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

By Jove you've got it!

Agree a roster. No customer disruption, no loss of revenue, happy cabin crew.

AL just havent thought of that one. Hopefully they read boards.ie and will realise thats the solution, since, as you say, it is easy to agree a new roster.

Funny that that's exactly what happened with the pilots 3 years ago. By Jove!:rolleyes:

end of the road

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

The inconvenience

you'l be fine

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

reputational damage to the country by their actions.

1. what reputation?
2. workers going on strike happens in many if not every country at some stage

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

The as yet not fessed up to culpability of the entire trade union movement particularly in the public sector in the mess we are in today.

nothing to fess up to, no culpability, just people looking after their members, whats expected of them

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

They messed us up when we had money and now they want to do it again when we don't.

no, they didn't, they looked for something and got it.

jjbrien

Ah geeze i know by the removing of free travel privileges it means another strike and I am booked in August with AL. I just want this over with.

end of the road

suicide_circus wrote: »

proper order.

no it isn't "proper order" its counter productive, will inflame tensions and will make it much harder to come to an agreement

bumper234

end of the road wrote: »

no it isn't "proper order" its counter productive, will inflame tensions and will make it much harder to come to an agreement

But striking is not counter productive :rolleyes:

Lord Trollington

Having worked in Aer lingus many years ago I can empathise with the workers.

As far as I'm aware they have conceded a lot to the company over the last number of years in order to keep things afloat.

But like all companies they will want more and see how much they can get to keep costs down and that is understandable too. For people who don't work in the aviation industry it can be hard to understand it.

For example. A 6am flight to Malaga. Crew "clock in" at 5am for a safety briefing. This would mean for a lot getting up at 4am to prepare. On board for boarding at 5.30 for 6am departure. Presuming it departs on time it should land in Malaga for 9am Irish time. An hour on the ground in Malaga, refueling, passengers baggage, plane clean and depart roughly at 10am to return home. 3 hours coming back, taxi to gate, allow passengers off plane and be hopefully off the aircraft before 2pm.

This would be an ideal day. But very often this is not the case. Delays, lost baggage, technical issues, missing passengers ect can mean missing a take off slot and delays by hours. All of a sudden your 5am - 2pm duty turns in to 4pm.

The following day you might have to do the same all over again. Only you could be rostered the later flight. You might have one day off and then back on early flight again. The rostering is very erratic and it's that way for a reason. It can be taxing on the body, any air staff I know whilst they have perks have no real social life. Plans go out the window in minutes.

end of the road

gramar wrote: »

Proper order. I'm 35 and for as long as I can remember Aer Lingus has been held to ransom by trade unions. The company is still riddled with a sense of self-entitlement and a job for life attitude among it's staff.

as i said not "proper order" stupid and will drag it out for longer, no sense of entitlement or a job for life attitude, and nobody is being "held to ransom" nobody goes on strike unless its a genuine reason, as the members voted then they did so as a very last resort

end of the road

893bet wrote: »

There has to be balance between employers and the unions.

Unions are most definitely needed in order to protect employees however there has to be give and take especially in challenging conditions.

ultimately that is what will happen on both sides, this action might drag it out for longer though

comongethappy

Lord Trollington wrote: »

But like all companies they will want more and see how much they can get to keep costs down and that is understandable too. For people who don't work in the aviation industry it can be hard to understand it.

I've never worked in aviation, but I do know that is how every private company, everywhere, ever operates itself.

end of the road

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

These unions are not acting in their members interests.

they are though, you may not agree with it but if the members didn't vote for a strike then there wouldn't be one

end of the road

Steven81 wrote: »

Would love to see what o leary would do if people dared mess with him

with trade unions, it could end in a blood bath on both sides, he's best off at ryanair

Steve F

Collie D wrote: »

Fixed that for you. The man's a bully

You work for Aer Lingus don't you Collie D? :rolleyes:

tayto lover

end of the road wrote: »

no it isn't "proper order" its counter productive, will inflame tensions and will make it much harder to come to an agreement

Correct.
I can see it being a lot harder to reach agreement now which is a pity. Hope the unions do not take the hard line and organise another day's strike with or without warning. Time for both sides to cop on and start talking.
They always do ........ eventually.

end of the road

Specialun wrote: »

The trade unions always threaten strike action very fast.

they don't

Specialun wrote: »

No way should Aer Lingus roll over for them

an agreement will be made, thats not "rolling over"

tayto lover

bumper234 wrote: »

But striking is not counter productive :rolleyes:

It is as we all know.
Talking is where its at.

end of the road

glued wrote: »

Trade Unionism within Aer Lingus has gone too far. They're holding the company to ransom. They have gone too far and are expecting unrealistic work conditions. They're becoming corrupt and shiftless. Their tactics do nothing for their cause but damage the customer and more importantly the company.

acting for their members isn't going "to far" the company isn't being held to ransom either, strike was a last resort

end of the road

Buzz Killington the third wrote: »

Unions should be a thing of the past.

really? why is that then? your an employer who wishes to get away with all sorts? or let me guess the old "we have employment law now/its the 21st century so everything is fine and dandy" crap?

Lord Trollington

comongethappy wrote: »

I've never worked in aviation, but I do know that is how every private company, everywhere, ever operates itself.

I agree. But for every private company there is also a contract of employment.

There obviously has to be dialogue between the company and it's employees in order to implement cost cutting measures.

The problem here is the company are not really engaging with employees but are implementing an erratic rostering system for a number of various reasons.

I'll give you an example. The Aerlingus rostering system is done in blocks of 3 weeks, so you know a week in advance what you will be doing for the next 3 weeks.

During that 3 weeks you might be off Monday. In 6am Tuesday, 6am Wednesday, 3pm Thursday, off Friday, 6am Saturday. 12 midday Sunday, 6am Monday, 3pm Tuesday, off Wedneday, back in again for 6am Thursday.

Body clock All over the shop. Getting into bed at 8pm one night for work and then the following night not landing until 11pm.

There is no logical reason why they have to roster like this , I know because I worked in the rostering system.

byhookorbycrook

*Waits for someone to find a way to blame it on the public service*

banquo

Aer Lingus had a monopoly for decades and often made an annual loss.

A monopoly. Of air travel. Making a loss. On an island.

tayto lover

end of the road wrote: »

really? why is that then? your an employer who wishes to get away with all sorts? or let me guess the old "we have employment law now/its the 21st century so everything is fine and dandy" crap?

In fairness most of the posters here are young and probably never experienced what it was like years ago when there were no unions in some workplaces and employers abused the workers. I did and always stand up for workers' rights now.

Gone Drinking

Lord Trollington wrote: »

I agree. But for every private company there is also a contract of employment.

There obviously has to be dialogue between the company and it's employees in order to implement cost cutting measures.

The problem here is the company are not really engaging with employees but are implementing an erratic rostering system for a number of various reasons.

I'll give you an example. The Aerlingus rostering system is done in blocks of 3 weeks, so you know a week in advance what you will be doing for the next 3 weeks.

During that 3 weeks you might be off Monday. In 6am Tuesday, 6am Wednesday, 3pm Thursday, off Friday, 6am Saturday. 12 midday Sunday, 6am Monday, 3pm Tuesday, off Wedneday, back in again for 6am Thursday.

Body clock All over the shop. Getting into bed at 8pm one night for work and then the following night not landing until 11pm.

There is no logical reason why they have to roster like this , I know because I worked in the rostering system.

My girlfriend works in the hospitality sector, her hours/time off is very similar to what you've described above.. except she only finds out her roster at the end of every week.

No its not ideal but she knew what it was going to be like when she took the job, its the nature of the work/staffing..

end of the road

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Don't forget the EU will not allow another government bailout of Aer Lingus if it gets into trouble again.

what are they going to do about it? i'm sure it could be disguised as something else, if the government don't call it or refer to it in any way as a bailout then the EU can prove nothing

end of the road

bumper234 wrote: »

the workers agreed a roster when they signed a contract of employment. Do you think anyone else can walk into their bosses office tomorrow and demand their working hours be changed?

maybe they can, or maybe they are able to sit down with the employer and discuss it if there is an issue

Cork Lass

tayto lover wrote: »

In fairness most of the posters here are young and probably never experienced what it was like years ago when there were no unions in some workplaces and employers abused the workers. I did and always stand up for workers' rights now.

What's more is that some don't realise that the terms and conditions they take for granted now were hard fought for by others long before their time. Unions will always have a place and for the most part do very good work.

ProfessorPlum

jjbrien wrote: »

Ah geeze i know by the removing of free travel privileges it means another strike and I am booked in August with AL. I just want this over with.

So do the Cabin Crew.

Gone Drinking wrote: »

My girlfriend works in the hospitality sector, her hours/time off is very similar to what you've described above.. except she only finds out her roster at the end of every week.

No its not ideal but she knew what it was going to be like when she took the job, its the nature of the work/staffing..

Does her roster often get changed by several hours with very little notice? This is another problem.
Also in Aer Lingus, there are thousands of cabin crew. It's not like a smaller business trying to cover the hours / breaks etc. It should be possible to have a better roster pattern than they have. In fact, it should be possible to have a roster pattern period. They don't have any at present.
I think Aer Lingus would see the benefits if they gave it a go - happier work force, lower sick leave etc.

end of the road

Balmed Out wrote: »

Think it should be illegal for transport links to be affected by strikes.

no it shouldn't, striking is either legal or its not, transport links are important but not that important, nobody dies if the plane doesn't fly unless its an air ambulance

Balmed Out wrote: »

Were an island economy and these actions have too many knock on affects.

tough, all the more reason for both sides to sit down and sort it out and come to an agreement and quick

Lord Trollington

Gone Drinking wrote: »

My girlfriend works in the hospitality sector, her hours/time off is very similar to what you've described above.. except she only finds out her roster at the end of every week.

No its not ideal but she knew what it was going to be like when she took the job, its the nature of the work/staffing..

Does she leave the country everyday with the possibility of staying in another country at short notice or being chronically delayed by many hours.

I agree it's something she signed up to, but if what she signed up to was being made even more difficult on her surely she would question it.

Again when people do not understand the workings of the airline industry and indeed aerlingus it can be hard to comprehend.

There are thousands of staff in Aerlingus. Many prefer early flights. Many prefer late flights. Many prefer Europe only flights as they want to be home everyday for family reasons, others prefer transatlantic over night stays. You are encouraged to tell aerlingus which you prefer as it should in theory make it easier for them to roster everyone fairly and prevent unneeded sick leave and absenteeism.

The problem is for one reason or another people who prefer Europe flights are deliberately being given transatlantic flights, people who prefer late flights are being rostered 3 x 5am starts in row and then 2 late flights for no apparent reason or logic.

As I said there are thousands working in Aerlngus. Rostering can be complex but there is absolutely no reason for rostering people the way they are.

end of the road

Balmed Out wrote: »

Nope I dont think fire, police, medical or transport services should have the right to strike.

which makes you a danger to the working man and women, everyone has the right to strike, transport is important but not very, fire police and ambulance are the only important ones but even they have to be allowed to strike to make sure they do not get walked over, they usually don't anyway, its just the red tape paperwork they don't fill in and thats it

end of the road

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

I would sue the union leader personally for every cent lost on the day of the strike

you won't get a penny

satguy

I'm 50 years of age, and can remember when they were asking more than two weeks wages to fly to the UK,, it was pure robbery. Then you would see on the news at Six, that they only lost 5 million that year. It's sad to say this as I don't really like Ryanair,, but Michael O'Leary saved us all from these fools.

end of the road

minidazzler wrote: »

There's striking for unfair and unsafe work practices and then there is this. A bunch of arseholes costing a company money and 40000 people their weekend plans because they have to work a few sh1tty hours. They knew it wasn't a 9-5 when they signed up.

its only weekend plans, has to be done, all other options were exausted

end of the road

smileyj1987 wrote: »

The amount of people out of work that would gladly take the jobs and hours that goes with it is through the roof .

its not smiley, people may come out with such a statement "well i'd gladly have that job" but most likely many won't work it when it comes down to it

end of the road

jmayo wrote: »

And that is the bully that made it possible for most Irish people to get on and off this bloody island, bar taking a boat, without having to fork out a few weeks or months salary.

nothing wrong with the boat, i use the boat and go by train, a lot longer yes but a lot less hassle, my trips would be leasure though

jmayo wrote: »

Aer Lingus's primary function was to provide perks and jobs for life to it's employees and transportation to the Irish people, it's long term owners and benefactors, came a poor second.

rubbish

end of the road

frostyjacks wrote: »

people in cushy jobs, They should swap jobs for a week with someone who works in the real world, handy number

the typical words from one who hasn't a clue about the workings of someone elses job, yeah they have a good job but they deserve it, everyone deserves a good job

suicide_circus

end of the road wrote: »

no it isn't "proper order" its counter productive, will inflame tensions and will make it much harder to come to an agreement

And if they can't reach agreement, the company should just accept the workers demands?

Yamanoto

Lord Trollington wrote: »

The problem is for one reason or another people who prefer Europe flights are deliberately being given transatlantic flights

That might partly explain why the service on their TATL routes has taken a discernible dip over the last few years. By contrast, their short-haul product holds up pretty well against full service carriers in my experience.

Axel Lamp

Union members pay union dues, there should be sufficient funds to pay the strikers the strike pay for their lost wages.

Unless of course the funds have been used for other purposes........

Woodville56

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Firstly I love Aer Lingus and fly with them as regularly as I can but I completely support this action against these striking workers.


http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0603/621344-aer-lingus/


My reasons are two fold.


1. The inconvenience and reputational damage to the airline and the country by their actions. They still seem to think the airline is a public company they can push around.

2. The as yet not fessed up to culpability of the entire trade union movement particularly in the public sector in the mess we are in today.

They messed us up when we had money and now they want to do it again when we don't.

Pretty sweeping generalisations there I would think !
So in relation to point 1 - it's ok then for Aer Lingus or any other employer to do the pushing around ?? If you were given a contract of employment and were now expected to work a roster that bore little or relation to what you signed up for, would you be happy and just get on with it ?
Point 2 - so the public service is culpable and should be "fessing up" for the "mess we're in today " Really ??? Were they all bankers, developers, speculators and dodgy dealing politicians in a previous life ?

As for messing up when we had money, looks like Aer Lingus still has money when it can pay it's CEO a salary of €1.5m , significantly higher than CEO's of similar size airlines elsewhere ??

coolemon

Great to see workers standing up for themselves and attempting to progress their terms and conditions.

Do employees usually get paid for the days they strike? Am I reading the news report correctly when it says AI will be docking them 1 day on the next payroll run?

end of the road

Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »

Do employees usually get paid for the days they strike? Am I reading the news report correctly when it says AI will be docking them 1 day on the next payroll run?

they don't get payed while on strike, hence why striking is only ever done as the final option/last resort

Steppenwolfe

Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »

Do employees usually get paid for the days they strike? Am I reading the news report correctly when it says AI will be docking them 1 day on the next payroll run?

You don't get paid when you strike. Which is one reason it's usually the last resort for employees.

Dave!

Perhaps a naive question, not being an industrial relations expert, but if Aerlingus are not abiding by the terms agreed with the employees in their contracts, then is there not some statutory body that the employees can go to to complain / sue / whatever? I've never had a dispute with an employer so far over something in my contract, but if I did my instinct as an individual would be to document everything, consult a lawyer, and then if they agree that there is a breach, and the employer still doesn't budge, pursue whatever legal avenue I have.

What's the X factor here that I'm missing? Is there no legal protection reinforcing these employment contracts?

Crann na Beatha

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benway

Phoenix wrote: »

his company have no union either

Not sure what your point is here, but wouldn't your mate be better off with a union that was willing to fight?

gramar wrote: »

The company is still riddled with a sense of self-entitlement and a job for life attitude among it's staff.

How awful! Those terrible pesky Aer Lingus workers! I mean, a job security, decent terms and conditions AND a say in how their working life is organised! HOW VERY DARE THEY.

If they keep on like this, they'll all want it.

Assuming that the majority of people posting here are employees of some sort, there's a lot of union-bashing turkeys bigging up christmas here.

Guessing that a lot of you aren't aware of the background context here with Aer Lingus management trying to screw workers out of their pensions.

Well done Aer Lingus. FFS.

Crann na Beatha

This post has been deleted.