Well done Aer Lingus

bumper234

end of the road wrote: »

good on them, doing their bit for the country, stoping or making it difficult for the abandoners to abandon the country in its hour of need, they should have trippled the prices or more

Idiotic post is idiotic :rolleyes:

Cravens

Ye gods, this thread is descending into lunacy! Was that an attempt at sarcasm there sir? Or were ye genuinely being serious?

H3llR4iser

ProfessorPlum wrote: »

Citation needed. Infact Aer Lingus is out performing most european and US carriers.



The rosters they are working is not what they signed up for. There have been whole hosts of changes since many of them signed their contracts. If you actually looked at what's being asked for, and more importantly what would be accepted, you'll see that what's being asked is not unreasonable. Aer Lingus had the same response to pilot requests for a fixed pattern roster (available at many carriers, even Ryanair) and were not for turning until the pilots proved to them they could work the roster without any loss of productivity. Management just seemed not to be bothered before that, despite the fact that pilot sick leave had gone through the roof at that time (was still low in comparison to other sections, but v high for pilots). There is no reason that something acceptable to both sides can't be worked out, but they need to sit down and talk.



1) The company is not barely holding on.
2) These people are happy to do a job that demands tough hours and a lot of flexibility.

I agree with everything here, but particularly...

ProfessorPlum wrote: »

3) In that case, lets pay everyone peanuts and treat them like sh1t, as surely there will be someone willing to take the jobs.

This. A lot of silly populism going on here, the kind of reasoning that "strike = wanting privileges" and the "blame the unions", which is exactly what businesses want. There are a few examples in the EU of countries where Unions historically lied in bed with corporations and governments - see Spain, Italy or Greece. Result: longer working hours and take home pay that is often less than one third of other EU countries such as the UK, Germany or Ireland, in economic environments that aren't any cheaper than other countries.

ProfessorPlum wrote: »

You'll change your tune pretty quickly if you're ever on on aircraft that's having a problem. Amazing how the loud mouths suddenly get very quiet (apart from the whimpering)

Eheh, exactly. Too many people often forget that pilots are not exactly "air jockeys" and that "trolley dollys" or "snack cart hunks" have extensive hazard management and safety training...

Tony EH

Buzz Killington the third wrote: »

Unions should be a thing of the past.

end of the road wrote: »

really? why is that then? your an employer who wishes to get away with all sorts? or let me guess the old "we have employment law now/its the 21st century so everything is fine and dandy" crap?

tayto lover wrote: »

In fairness most of the posters here are young and probably never experienced what it was like years ago when there were no unions in some workplaces and employers abused the workers. I did and always stand up for workers' rights now.

There are always clowns without a single clue, who post that kind moronic "unions/bad" type of comment when these issues arise.

But for every fool who tries to make that idiotic point, just tell them for one second to sit down and look around their job and, just for a minute, take in all the benefits and rights that they are privy to and then realise that without unions or some form of employee organisation fighting for those rights in past disputes, they would be in a much, much worse situation.

Christ...even a proper fucking lunch break had to be fought for.

VinLieger

Tony EH wrote: »

There are always clowns without a single clue, who post that kind moronic "unions/bad" type of comment when these issues arise.

But for every fool who tries to make that idiotic point, just tell them for one second to sit down and look around their job and, just for a minute, take in all the benefits and rights that they are privy to and then realise that without unions or some form of employee organisation fighting for those rights in past disputes, they would be in a much, much worse situation.

Christ...even a proper fucking lunch break had to be fought for.

Yes the unions helped get those rights but heres the thing these rights are now enshrined in law so the Unions are day by day becoming more and more irrelevant and it is only by pushing strikes like this that they can stay cooped up in their Ivory towers earning in the majority of cases 3-4 times more than any of the memebers they are "fighting" for.

Tony EH

And how do you think those rights got to the stage that they were enshrined by law?

In addition, without some sort of employee solidarity, workers rights can and WILL be eroded again.

Workers today have no idea what working life was like in the past. Not a single clue and some spout all kinds of idiotic bollocks talk about unions this / left wing that, without a single pause to try and understand what things would be like without the basic working rights they enjoy.

Utterly amazing.

bumper234

Tony EH wrote: »

And how do you think those rights got to the stage that they were enshrined by law?

In addition, without some sort of employee solidarity, workers rights can and WILL be eroded again.

Workers today have no idea what working life was like in the past. Not a single clue and some spout all kinds of idiotic bollocks talk about unions this / left wing that, without a single pause to try and understand what things would be like without the basic working rights they enjoy.

Utterly amazing.

Working rights are fine, It's when a company is on the verge of collapse and the unions are STILL doing their best to kill off that company is when it gets on peoples tits. If Aer Lingus went belly up next year the same ones would be on here spouting about how it's managements fault for not "listening" to the workers when in truth the workers in AL are all take and no give. The sense of entitlement from them is nauseating, The sooner it is let go to the wall the better. The hole in Irish aviation will last a week or two before other airlines swoop in to take their place.

end of the road

VinLieger wrote: »

Yes the unions helped get those rights but heres the thing these rights are now enshrined in law

for how long, one lot of rights are "enshrined in law" while others are slowly being taken away.

VinLieger wrote: »

the Unions are day by day becoming more and more irrelevant

no they aren't, those who are in a union believe they need the representation and therefore they have it, if one wants to take the risk of not being in a union fine but it doesn't make your nonsense statement right.

VinLieger wrote: »

it is only by pushing strikes like this that they can stay cooped up in their Ivory towers earning in the majority of cases 3-4 times more than any of the memebers they are "fighting" for.

did you quote that from the daily mail? the members pay the union leaders, if the members don't want to pay them a good wage they won't

Tony EH

bumper234 wrote: »

Working rights are fine, It's when a company is on the verge of collapse and the unions are STILL doing their best to kill off that company is when it gets on peoples tits. If Aer Lingus went belly up next year the same ones would be on here spouting about how it's managements fault for not "listening" to the workers when in truth the workers in AL are all take and no give. The sense of entitlement from them is nauseating, The sooner it is let go to the wall the better. The hole in Irish aviation will last a week or two before other airlines swoop in to take their place.

Aer Lingus is nowhere near the verge of collapse.

And why the bloody hell would unions want to "kill off" a company that their contributors are part of? That's just a ridiculous statement.

bumper234

Tony EH wrote: »

Aer Lingus is nowhere near the verge of collapse.

And why the bloody hell would unions want to "kill off" a company that their contributors are part of? That's just a ridiculous statement.

Give it a year.

end of the road

bumper234 wrote: »

Working rights are fine

some here don't want people to have working rights, they want the workers to shut up know their place and be greatful for even being payed or having the right to work

bumper234 wrote: »

It's when a company is on the verge of collapse and the unions are STILL doing their best to kill off that company is when it gets on peoples tits.

no, the unions aren't trying to kill off the company, stop reading the gutter trash rags, also its people standing up for themselves that "gets on peoples tits" usually the people who can't or who are to afraid to stand up for themselves.

bumper234 wrote: »

If Aer Lingus went belly up next year the same ones would be on here spouting about how it's managements fault for not "listening" to the workers when in truth the workers in AL are all take and no give.

management haven't listened, the workers have given and will give more but give and take has to work on both sides.

bumper234 wrote: »

The sense of entitlement from them is nauseating

just because you can't improve your conditions doesn't mean others can't.

bumper234 wrote: »

The sooner it is let go to the wall the better.

not at all, ireland needs a national airline

bumper234 wrote: »

The hole in Irish aviation will last a week or two before other airlines swoop in to take their place.

not at all, no other airline could take their place or fill the whole left

Tony EH

bumper234 wrote: »

Give it a year.

I don't need to give it any time. Their profits have rising for the last few years...in the worst recession the country has seen.

€61.1m for last year!

Valetta

Tony EH wrote: »

I don't need to give it any time. Their profits have rising for the last few years...in the worst recession the country has seen.

€61.1m for last year!

6 days strike will have that wiped out fairly quick.

ProfessorPlum

VinLieger wrote: »

Yes the unions helped get those rights but heres the thing these rights are now enshrined in law so the Unions are day by day becoming more and more irrelevant and it is only by pushing strikes like this that they can stay cooped up in their Ivory towers earning in the majority of cases 3-4 times more than any of the memebers they are "fighting" for.

Three words for you:

Zero hours contracts.

Don't think that every maverick employer out there isn't wetting their pants with excitement of getting their employees on one of them. Don't be so naive to think the work for employees rights is done and we can all rest on our laurels.

tayto lover

bumper234 wrote: »

Working rights are fine, It's when a company is on the verge of collapse and the unions are STILL doing their best to kill off that company is when it gets on peoples tits. If Aer Lingus went belly up next year the same ones would be on here spouting about how it's managements fault for not "listening" to the workers when in truth the workers in AL are all take and no give. The sense of entitlement from them is nauseating, The sooner it is let go to the wall the better. The hole in Irish aviation will last a week or two before other airlines swoop in to take their place.

Scarleh for ya

end of the road

Tony EH wrote: »

I don't need to give it any time. Their profits have rising for the last few years...in the worst recession the country has seen.

€61.1m for last year!

Valetta wrote: »

6 days strike will have that wiped out fairly quick.

no it won't, such nonsense

bumper234

tayto lover wrote: »

Scarleh for ya

Don't be. At this rate Aer Lingus will no longer exist in 3 years.

Valetta

end of the road wrote: »

no it won't, such nonsense

The airline lost €10 Million as a result of the one day strike.

Work it out for yourself.

hardCopy

end of the road wrote: »

not at all, ireland needs a national airline

Why?

end of the road wrote: »

not at all, no other airline could take their place or fill the whole left

Of course they will, nature abhors a vacuum.

Tony EH

hardCopy wrote: »

Of course they will, nature abhors a vacuum.

Business is not nature.

Valetta

Tony EH wrote: »

Business is not nature.

Supply and demand is a big part of business.

There will obviously be a demand if Aer Lingus cease to exist. Do you seriously think other airlines will not look to supply this demand?

Tony EH

That's beside the point.

The "nature abhors a vacuum" statement is meaningless in the business world. A void in business will only be filled if there's profit to be accrued.

bumper234

Tony EH wrote: »

That's beside the point.

The "nature abhors a vacuum" statement is meaningless in the business world. A void in business will only be filled if there's profit to be accrued.

So aer lingus are the only ones who could make a profit in the Irish market?

Tony EH

Another one missing the point.

Valetta

Tony EH wrote: »

Another one missing the point.

You haven't made any point.

Tony EH

The "nature abhors a vacuum" statement is meaningless in the business world.

Pay attention.

Jawgap

bumper234 wrote: »

Working rights are fine, It's when a company is on the verge of collapse and the unions are STILL doing their best to kill off that company is when it gets on peoples tits. If Aer Lingus went belly up next year the same ones would be on here spouting about how it's managements fault for not "listening" to the workers when in truth the workers in AL are all take and no give. The sense of entitlement from them is nauseating, The sooner it is let go to the wall the better. The hole in Irish aviation will last a week or two before other airlines swoop in to take their place.

Tony EH wrote: »

Aer Lingus is nowhere near the verge of collapse.

And why the bloody hell would unions want to "kill off" a company that their contributors are part of? That's just a ridiculous statement.

Tony EH wrote: »

I don't need to give it any time. Their profits have rising for the last few years...in the worst recession the country has seen.

€61.1m for last year!

Depends how you read it. Aer Lingus are profitable and cash generative. However, the degree to which they are profitable / cash generative is weak. For example, their profit for last year, even if all of it was realised as cash would buy about two-thirds of an A320.

Their most recent load factor were 78.7% compared to Ryanair which tend towards the mid to high 80s.

problemchimp

Here's a great idea, don't give any bonus to Mr. Mueller and let's not top up his pension fund by 175k..... oh wait, too late.

Tony EH

Jawgap wrote: »

Depends how you read it. Aer Lingus are profitable and cash generative. However, the degree to which they are profitable / cash generative is weak. For example, their profit for last year, even if all of it was realised as cash would buy about two-thirds of an A320.

Their most recent load factor were 78.7% compared to Ryanair which tend towards the mid to high 80s.

The fact still remains that they are NOT on the verge of collapse.

If they had been operating in the red for the last two or three years, then yes. But, the idea that they're going to go under or that unions want them too is just silly.

ProfessorPlum

Valetta wrote: »

The airline lost €10 Million as a result of the one day strike.

Work it out for yourself.

To be fair that is a nice, round, easy number that was thrown out by Aer Lingus. I would say it's a fairly rounded up number.


That's not to say, however, that of course strikes are bad for business and bad for profits (that's kind of the logic behind them).
Both sides in this dispute need to sit down with an open agenda and find a mutually acceptable agreement.
Aer Lingus management need to take stock of themselves and find a better way to manage all of their employees in a less confrontational way. There are several outstanding issues at the airline that need to be resolved sooner rather than later.
Despite the naysayers out there, Aer Lingus is a fine airline, and has the potential to be an even better one, if everyone learns to work together and most importantly, respect each other.

end of the road

Valetta wrote: »

The airline lost €10 Million as a result of the one day strike.

yeah, i'm sure it did, i believe you, no really i do

Valetta

end of the road wrote: »

yeah, i'm sure it did, i believe you, no really i do

I really don't care whether you believe me or not.

Axel Lamp

Nice to see the IMPACT union reps working hard.

By working hard I do of course mean posting on this thread.

I am pie

O'Leary should sell his stake to IMPACT, watch them bankrupt the airline then buy it back for buttons when they cant pay salaries/pensions.

end of the road

I am pie wrote: »

O'Leary should sell his stake

couldn't agree more, he has an airline of his own he should stick to it

I am pie wrote: »

then buy it back for buttons

no, he must stay at and only own ryanair

SaveOurLyric

Does anyone know, roughly, how many Aer Lingus cabin crew, after looking longingly across the ramp at the coveted 5-3 rosters of their Ryanair counterparts, have moved and joined Ryanair to escape their indentured slavery and inhumane working roster in EI ?

bumper234

end of the road wrote: »

couldn't agree more, he has an airline of his own he should stick to it



no,!! he must stay at and only own ryanair

I don't think he cares one iota what you think, he will sell his stake and buy it up when it dies a slow death. Get rid of the whingers and Ryanair has a ready made transatlantic fleet.

Jawgap

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

Does anyone know, roughly, how many Aer Lingus cabin crew, after looking longingly across the ramp at the coveted 5-3 rosters of their Ryanair counterparts, have moved and joined Ryanair to escape their indentured slavery and inhumane working roster in EI ?

I think the problem Aer Lingus cabin crew have is that they see it as some kind of 'career' when really it's a job you do in your 20s (maybe early 30s) to earn a bit of cash, have a bit of craic and get some life experience before getting a proper job.

You only have to look at the age profiles of the Aer Lingus crew versus the Ryanair crews - I never got on on a Ryanair flight and felt like I'm being served by my Ma, the way you sometimes get with Aer Lingus.

........and within the bounds of company and competition law O'Leary should be able to own what he wants........maybe Aer Lingus could return the favour and buy a chunk of Ryanair.........oh, wait you need cash to be able to engineer that transaction

KoolKid

I have long lost respect for Aer Lingus.
They are way over staffed in every way compared to Ryan Air. Give it to O Leary and let him make it profitable and show them how to run an airline. With all this unrest there is no way I would book an Aer Lingus flight with the threat of having my holidays ruined because glorified waitresses want the same conditions as pilots.

ProfessorPlum

bumper234 wrote: »

Get rid of the whingers and Ryanair has a ready made transatlantic fleet.

Looks like cosmic radiation isn't the only research you need to do.

Jawgap wrote: »

I think the problem Aer Lingus cabin crew have is that they see it as some kind of 'career' when really it's a job you do in your 20s (maybe early 30s) to earn a bit of cash, have a bit of craic and get some life experience before getting a proper job.

Whatever your feelings about Aer Lingus, it's crews, the strike or whatever, that's not a very fair comment. Plenty of people have made good careers in cabin crew, including leading onto instructing, management etc. A good CCM has a great skill set, you shouldn't lose sight of that.
There are many reasons why it mightn't be seen so much as a 'career' in Ryanair etc.

ProfessorPlum

KoolKid wrote: »

....because glorified waitresses want the same conditions as pilots.

Please see my previous post #45

end of the road

Jawgap wrote: »

I think the problem Aer Lingus cabin crew have is that they see it as some kind of 'career' when really it's a job you do in your 20s (maybe early 30s) to earn a bit of cash, have a bit of craic and get some life experience before getting a proper job.

if one wants to do such a job as a career and the airline is willing to keep employing them once they leave their 20s then they are entitled to

Jawgap wrote: »

You only have to look at the age profiles of the Aer Lingus crew versus the Ryanair crews - I never got on on a Ryanair flight and felt like I'm being served by my Ma, the way you sometimes get with Aer Lingus.

if you just want to be served why should you care? if you want to look at women then thats a different story

end of the road

bumper234 wrote: »

I don't think he cares one iota what you think

i couldn't care a less

bumper234 wrote: »

he will sell his stake and buy it up when it dies a slow death.

maybe he won't, it isn't going to die a slow death

bumper234 wrote: »

Get rid of the whingers and Ryanair has a ready made transatlantic fleet.

unless the company sells the aircraft to someone else, no whinjers either.

end of the road

KoolKid wrote: »

They are way over staffed in every way compared to Ryan Air

no they aren't, and if they were which they aren't, nobody cares.

KoolKid wrote: »

Give it to O Leary and let him make it profitable and show them how to run an airline.

he has an airline to run, its called ryanair, our state airline should on no terms be given to anyone.

KoolKid wrote: »

With all this unrest there is no way I would book an Aer Lingus flight with the threat of having my holidays ruined

boo hoo, holiday in ireland and help the economy, a tax on irish going on foreign holidays should be introduced to encourage holidaying at home.

KoolKid wrote: »

glorified waitresses want the same conditions as pilots.

they aren't glorified waitresses nor do they want the same conditions as pilots, insulting and downplaying peoples jobs invalidates anything one has to say

Jawgap

ProfessorPlum wrote: »

Whatever your feelings about Aer Lingus, it's crews, the strike or whatever, that's not a very fair comment. Plenty of people have made good careers in cabin crew, including leading onto instructing, management etc. A good CCM has a great skill set, you shouldn't lose sight of that.
There are many reasons why it mightn't be seen so much as a 'career' in Ryanair etc.

While it may be not fair, it's true as evidenced by your subsequent comments which illustrate the point I was making that cabin crewing is a stepping stone in most airlines, rather than a career in and of itself

end of the road wrote: »

if one wants to do such a job as a career and the airline is willing to keep employing them once they leave their 20s then they are entitled to



if you just want to be served why should you care? if you want to look at women then thats a different story

They are entitled and I don't care - the observation was made to highlight the differences in how the cabin crew in various airlines see themselves. Most crew in most airlines see it as transitory, Aer Lingus cabin crew seem to think they are more than the actually are.

Fair enough, that's their right. It's also their right to organise and be represented by a union, and it's their right to be stupid in their choice of industrial action, but all they are doing is hollowing out the company.

Aer Lingus is not on the verge of collapsing, but neither is it in a position to meaningfully expand (without taking on boatloads of debt) - it still has to resolve the pension deficit and replenish / refit large chunks of its fleet.......While it's demise is not imminent, I'd suggest it won't be with us in its current form in 5 years.

banquo

boo hoo, holiday in ireland and help the economy, a tax on irish going on foreign holidays should be introduced to encourage holidaying at home.

*clears throat*

No no no no no no no no no no no.

KoolKid

Over staffed or not.?
Without going into everything look at operations compared to Ryan Air.
Aer Lingus less flights more staff.
Ryan Air more flights less staff.

The fact that it's the national airline makes no difference to any argument.
Why should I as a paying customer stay and holiday in Ireland because the national carrier can't operate a reliable service?
What a ridiculous argument.
You would bet your mortgage your Ryan Air flight won't be cancelled over unnecessary strikes.

Jawgap

end of the road wrote: »

no they aren't, and if they were which they aren't, nobody cares.



he has an airline to run, its called ryanair, our state airline should on no terms be given to anyone.

If Leo gets his way it will be given to Etihad, on condition they take on the pension liability

end of the road wrote: »

boo hoo, holiday in ireland and help the economy, a tax on irish going on foreign holidays should be introduced to encourage holidaying at home.

The manager of Belfast International airport thinks this is an excellent idea!

end of the road wrote: »

they aren't glorified waitresses nor do they want the same conditions as pilots, insulting and downplaying peoples jobs invalidates anything one has to say

They really are........and I'm not denigrating waitresses or suggesting that either job is not physically demanding, but the truth is in terms of skill levels there's not much to choose between them. I do accept that cabin crew have better first aid training.

SaveOurLyric

end of the road wrote: »

our state airline should on no terms be given to anyone.

Do Aer Lingus people think like this ???
No wonder the company has such IR problems.

end of the road

KoolKid wrote: »

Over staffed or not.?

no

KoolKid wrote: »

Without going into everything look at operations compared to Ryan Air.
Aer Lingus less flights more staff.
Ryan Air more flights less staff.

couldn't care a less about Ryan Air, Aer Lingus is different and must do things differently

KoolKid wrote: »

The fact that it's the national airline makes no difference to any argument.

it does

KoolKid wrote: »

Why should I as a paying customer stay and holiday in Ireland

because your country needs you and needs you to spend here to help the economy.

KoolKid wrote: »

the national carrier can't operate a reliable service

they operate a very reliable service

KoolKid wrote: »

You would bet your mortgage your Ryan Air flight won't be cancelled over unnecessary strikes.

couldn't care a less as i don't and won't fly ryan air, their product is not for me, the national airline or the boat for me, and no strike is unnecessary, all strikes are necessary otherwise they wouldn't happen.