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Punished for wanting accuracy - Catholic church

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  • 03-06-2014 8:34pm
    #1
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭


    I have several times had to take a poster to task for continually referring to the Roman Catholic church as the "Catholic Church". I was asked by the moderators not to do this in general threads but to start a specific thread on the issue. I did that, and now the moderators have closed that thread down because there was heated debate about the issue...

    Apparently unless using this term denigrates other posters, it isn't the place for the moderators to intervene. Every time someone knowingly uses the phrase, which despite common usage, clearly isn't the monopoly of one branch of the Catholic Church, they are denigrating other posters who are Catholic but not Roman Catholic.

    Yet the moderator intervenes to stop debate and to support the poster who continues to denigrate other Christians. How does that make sense?
    Post edited by Shield on


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    #2
    El Guapo!
    Registered Users Posts: 12,437 ✭✭✭✭El Guapo!


    Sounds to me like you're just getting bogged down in semantics. That sort of stuff usually only derails the original thread topic and leads to petty bickering, which does nothing to aid discussion.


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    #3
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    El Guapo! wrote: »
    Sounds to me like you're just getting bogged down in semantics. That sort of stuff usually only derails the original thread topic and leads to petty bickering, which does nothing to aid discussion.

    No, it's not semantics. The term "Catholic Church" has a specific meaning, and it is disrespectful to other Catholics to insist on using it for one branch of it, which claims to be the only valid Catholic church.

    But I've made this argument already; the reason I'm posting here is to try to get an explanation as to why I was asked to take the discussion into a specific thread, and when I did, the thread was closed because the discussion got heated.


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    #4
    Turtwig
    Registered Users Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    My reading of it was that Benny intervened because you were both posting very pointlessly. The thread should really been entitled "Ryan vs Katy - the one liner exchanges"

    e.g
    katydid wrote: »
    The fact STILL remains that the Roman Catholic church is not the only Catholic church.
    ryan101 wrote: »
    But only in the same way Jesus is not the only person called Jesus
    katydid wrote: »
    That shows you have NO UNDERSTANDING of what Catholicism is.
    ryan101 wrote: »
    Bit like claiming I have no understanding what 'Jesus' is
    katydid wrote: »
    I have no idea what your understanding of Jesus is, that's a matter for another discussion.



    We are discussing the Catholic church in its various manifestations. Can we stick to the topic, please?
    ryan101 wrote: »
    We are, it's a valid comparison, i.e. Jesus the brazilian claiming that no one should use the name Jesus without referring to him and all the other Jesus's
    katydid wrote: »
    No, it's not a valid comparison. There is only one person of Jesus relevant to Christianity, and your understanding of him may be different from mine or not. I don't know, it's a different discussion.

    We are discussing the Catholic church, the church Jesus founded. The Catholic church has many denominations, including yours and mine. I recognise that fact, you don't. It's as simple as that.
    ryan101 wrote:
    Which Jesus ? You did not specify. Jesus the Brazilian ?

    I built a beach buggy around the back of the house out of bits and pieces and parts, no motor tax, no NCT, I think i'll call it a . . . Toyota
    ryan101 wrote:
    Which Jesus is that though, Jesus the Brazilian, he is a Christian ? How can you exclude him ?

    At which Ryan was carded for ignoring mod instruction.
    After this he still continued on and was infracted.

    At this point, another poster mezuzaj, attempted to explain his own position. But the thread mostly continued on in the light of Katy Vs Ryan. As such it was closed and I'd have to agree with Benny's reasonings. It was going nowhere. Pretty much everything that was being discussed can be discussed in the Protestant/Catholic Megathread.


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    #5
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    Turtwig wrote: »
    My reading of it was that Benny intervened because you were both posting very personally. The thread should really been entitled "Ryan vs Katy - the one liner exchanges"

    .
    In all fairness, the only "personal" thing I said was that I didn't believe Ryan has an understanding of what Catholicism is. That was a statement of fact, as he continually insists on conflating "Catholicism" and "Roman Catholicism".

    He descended into some silly attempts at baiting me, which I tried to ignore and to keep the discussion on track. Eventually I ignored him.

    It is not my fault that Ryan descended into puerile baiting; I started the thread in good faith. The moderator declared that UNLESS a poster was being denigrated, they would not intervene - a poster was being denigrated, and instead of the person doing the denigrating being taken to task, the thread was simply closed. This says to me that the moderator doesn't value the right of a poster not to be insulted and denigrated.


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    #6
    Turtwig
    Registered Users Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    Yeah, that was a typo on my part sorry. What I was thinking when I put that word there was you guys have a bit of a personal rivalry/spat going on. But the word I meant to put there was a pointless series of exchange of posts.


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    #7
    Benny_Cake
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,205 ✭✭✭Benny_Cake


    Turtwig wrote: »
    My reading of it was that Benny intervened because you were both posting very pointlessly. The thread should really been entitled "Ryan vs Katy - the one liner exchanges".

    Pretty much this. At one point Katy, yourself and Ryan were involved in bickering about much the same topic across several threads. I'm not saying you were the only offender, far from it, but can't you understand how off-putting it is to posters who come along to the Christianity forum asking for advice on finding a church - which is exactly the sort of topic that we should be encouraging - only to have the thread derailed with pointless arguing between two individuals? To most people, this is an issue of semantics - when the phrase "Catholic church" is used, people know what it refers to.

    The other party hasn't got off lightly either, in case you think that you were unfairly targeted. I hope you continue to post, on the forum by all means, use the phrase Roman Catholic, just understand that it's unrealistic to expect everyone else to do the same.


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    #8
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    Benny_Cake wrote: »
    Pretty much this. At one point Katy, yourself and Ryan were involved in bickering about much the same topic across several threads. I'm not saying you were the only offender, far from it, but can't you understand how off-putting it is to posters who come along to the Christianity forum asking for advice on finding a church - which is exactly the sort of topic that we should be encouraging - only to have the thread derailed with pointless arguing between two individuals? To most people, this is an issue of semantics - when the phrase "Catholic church" is used, people know what it refers to.

    The other party hasn't got off lightly either, in case you think that you were unfairly targeted. I hope you continue to post, on the forum by all means, use the phrase Roman Catholic, just understand that it's unrealistic to expect everyone else to do the same.

    You asked me to take the issue to a separate thread, which is what I did...

    People throw around the word "semantics" as if it's a dirty word. Semantics has to do with the meaning of words. The meaning of the word "Catholic" is very specific, and cannot be equated with the term "Roman Catholic", and for those posters who are Catholic but not Roman Catholic it is a very important and significant difference. What is wrong with requesting that posters respect the meaning of the word, and the posters to whom the difference is important?

    I realise you can't force people to respect accurate language or to respect other posters, but as a moderator, why show bias towards them by dismissing the notion of respecting the difference because it's common parlance? Surely a forum dedicated to a discussion on religion should interest itself in accurate language and notions, and not dismiss them as irrelevant?


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    #9
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 83,118 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    The RCC is synonymous with Catholicism. Catholics not part of the RCC, for reasons of specific discussions, should probably be referred to as Non-Roman Catholics, NRCs. No?


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    #10
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    Overheal wrote: »
    The RCC is synonymous with Catholicism.

    According to whom?


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    #11
    kneemos
    Registered Users Posts: 20,433 ✭✭✭✭kneemos


    Would all but a tiny minority of Catholics in Ireland be non Roman Catholic ?and would it therefore be a bit anal to insist on clarifying unless you were specifically referring to non Roman Catholic?


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    #12
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    kneemos wrote: »
    Would all but a tiny minority of Catholics in Ireland be non Roman Catholic ?and would it therefore be a bit anal to insist on clarifying unless you were specifically referring to non Roman Catholic?

    Why is it anal to be accurate? Why should majority rule?

    I am Catholic. I am not Roman Catholic. Why should my faith be dismissed as "non-something else"?


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    #13
    kneemos
    Registered Users Posts: 20,433 ✭✭✭✭kneemos


    katydid wrote: »
    Why is it anal to be accurate? Why should majority rule?

    I am Catholic. I am not Roman Catholic. Why should my faith be dismissed as "non-something else"?

    Because it becomes boring and tiresome if everyone has to cater to minor details of every minority.
    If it's important to you point it out in one of your posts and leave it at that.


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    #14
    Pat Mustard
    Registered Users Posts: 9,554 ✭✭✭Pat Mustard


    Here's a link to the catechism of the Catholic Church. http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM
    CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH

    Catholics often refer to their Church as "the Catholic Church", and have been doing so since whenever.

    Although the Catholic Church has used the term "Roman Catholic Church" at times, it seems that the "Catholic Church" is more commonly used.


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    #15
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,497 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    The Mustard wrote: »
    Although the Catholic Church has used the term "Roman Catholic Church" at times, it seems that the "Catholic Church" is more commonly used.

    Certainly in Ireland anyway,
    If you asked the avg joe on the street which church they belonged to they'd likely say the catholic church in 9 out of 10 cases, (if not 9.9 out of 10 cases),

    By far they are actually the roman catholic, but in Ireland because the roman catholic church is very much in a majority when people say catholic church they mean the roman catholic church.


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    #16
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    kneemos wrote: »
    Because it becomes boring and tiresome if everyone has to cater to minor details of every minority.
    If it's important to you point it out in one of your posts and leave it at that.

    How is using respectful and accurate language to describe a person's faith"catering to minor details"? My Catholicism is an important part of my faith - I chose to become a member of the Anglican faith because it is both Catholic and Protestant. It is important that the Catholic nature of my church and others that are not connected to Rome is acknowledged, not dismissed as irrelevant.


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    #17
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    The Mustard wrote: »
    Here's a link to the catechism of the Catholic Church. http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM



    Catholics often refer to their Church as "the Catholic Church", and have been doing so since whenever.

    Although the Catholic Church has used the term "Roman Catholic Church" at times, it seems that the "Catholic Church" is more commonly used.

    Yes, Mustard, we know that. The point is that it is wrong. Just because one branch of the Catholic church take it upon themselves to commandeer the word "Catholic" and imply that it is exclusive to them, and just because people take that up and use the two words interchangeably doesn't mean it's right.


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    #18
    Pat Mustard
    Registered Users Posts: 9,554 ✭✭✭Pat Mustard


    katydid wrote: »
    Yes, Mustard, we know that. The point is that it is wrong. Just because one branch of the Catholic church take it upon themselves to commandeer the word "Catholic" and imply that it is exclusive to them, and just because people take that up and use the two words interchangeably doesn't mean it's right.

    Why not? Do you suggest that others should dictate the title of their religion to them?

    Suppose I change my username to katydidCanterbury but subsequently insist that you have unfairly commandeered the username katydid? Should you change your username to katydidRome so that people can believe that katydid should not be an exclusive term?


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    #19
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    The Mustard wrote: »
    Why not? Do you suggest that others should dictate the title of their religion to them?

    Suppose I change my username to katydidCanterbury but subsequently insist that you have unfairly commandeered the username katydid? Should you change your username to katydidRome so that people can believe that katydid should not be an exclusive term?

    But it's not the title of their religion! The religion is Christianity, Catholicism is a branch of Christianity, and Roman Catholicism is a branch of Catholicism. Historically, linguistically or any other way it is not the title of the church controlled by the Bishop of Rome. The Catholic church encompasses different churches, and goes back to before the Great Schism, or any of the other splits in the Christian church.

    The name "katydid" is my invention in the context of this forum. It did not pre-exist as a generic name for various posters on this forum, so I didn't commandeer it as mine. It originated as mine. So if you decided to take the action you proposed, you wouldn't have a leg to stand on, as you would have made a decision to take and adapt an existing term with a specific, not generic, application.


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    #20
    Pat Mustard
    Registered Users Posts: 9,554 ✭✭✭Pat Mustard


    katydid wrote: »
    But it's not the title of their religion! The religion is Christianity, Catholicism is a branch of Christianity, and Roman Catholicism is a branch of Catholicism. Historically, linguistically or any other way it is not the title of the church controlled by the Bishop of Rome. The Catholic church encompasses different churches, and goes back to before the Great Schism, or any of the other splits in the Christian church.

    I can support my assertion by reference to the Catholic Church calling itself "the Catholic Church". It seems a bit pointless for you to assert that its title is something else, when this is what it calls itself.


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    #21
    kneemos
    Registered Users Posts: 20,433 ✭✭✭✭kneemos


    You want 99.99% to change to accommodate yourself and maybe a few others?
    Can't for the life of me see how it reflects on you personally if someone uses the term Catholic rather than Roman Catholic.


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    #22
    Calina
    Registered Users Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Calina


    It strikes me that the label matters more to the OP than the ethos. Certainly that's the message I am getting from the posts in this thread anyway.


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    #23
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    The Mustard wrote: »
    I can support my assertion by reference to the Catholic Church calling itself "the Catholic Church". It seems a bit pointless for you to assert that its title is something else, when this is what it calls itself.

    I can call myself the Emperor of China. It doesn't make me the Emperor of China.


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    #24
    Insect Overlord
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 30,893 Mod ✭✭✭✭Insect Overlord


    This is one of the maddest Feedback threads I've seen in years. SOTS would be proud.


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    #25
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    kneemos wrote: »
    You want 99.99% to change to accommodate yourself and maybe a few others?
    Can't for the life of me see how it reflects on you personally if someone uses the term Catholic rather than Roman Catholic.
    In a forum dedicated to the discussion of religion, I would ASK for correct and respectful use of language. This is not a conversation in the pub, it is a place where people learn from each other, and have the time and the knowledge to use language in a way that shows mutual respect.

    Is that really too much to ask?


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    #26
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    Calina wrote: »
    It strikes me that the label matters more to the OP than the ethos. Certainly that's the message I am getting from the posts in this thread anyway.

    It's not a "label", it's the description of a particular branch of Christianity which takes a certain view regarding apostolic succession and other issues. It is not the description of one denomination within that branch of Christianity.

    Do you really not see anything wrong with people in a forum on religion misusing a pretty basic religious term?

    I'm not sure what you mean about "ethos".


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    #27
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    An File wrote: »
    This is one of the maddest Feedback threads I've seen in years. SOTS would be proud.

    Why?


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    #28
    Pat Mustard
    Registered Users Posts: 9,554 ✭✭✭Pat Mustard


    katydid wrote: »
    I can call myself the Emperor of China. It doesn't make me the Emperor of China.

    Try Emperor of France then.


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    #29
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    katydid wrote: »
    It's not a "label", it's the description of a particular branch of Christianity which takes a certain view regarding apostolic succession and other issues. It is not the description of one denomination within that branch of Christianity.

    Do you really not see anything wrong with people in a forum on religion misusing a pretty basic religious term?

    I'm not sure what you mean about "ethos".

    So from now on if someone mentions Islam they should have to type in Sunni, Shiite, Sufism, Ahmadiyya etc when speaking about Muslims?


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    #30
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    If you think calling the "Roman Catholic Church" the "Catholic Church" is disrespectful, I suggest you don't venture into any neighbouring forums.


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    #31
    Calina
    Registered Users Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Calina


    katydid wrote: »
    It's not a "label", it's the description of a particular branch of Christianity which takes a certain view regarding apostolic succession and other issues. It is not the description of one denomination within that branch of Christianity.

    It is absolutely a label and if you are not capable of understanding why I used it here, you're not qualified to argue about any linguistic matter. A label is a term describing something.
    katydid wrote: »
    Do you really not see anything wrong with people in a forum on religion misusing a pretty basic religious term?

    It is not a pretty basic religious term. You need to understand that vernacular language sometimes uses terms differently to expert languages. While you're discussing matters of religion, I suspect the population of posters on Christianity is not made up exclusively of theologians. For this reason, you, as a responsible contributor should recognise that common usage of the term Catholic Church in Ireland tends to act as a synonym for Roman Catholic Church.
    katydid wrote: »
    I'm not sure what you mean about "ethos".

    This doesn't surprise me.


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