The Galway Hurling Enigma

blue note

Newstalk had Dathi Reagan and Conor Hayes on yesterday talking about this. Some fair points were made.

Conor Hayes was suggesting that it’s in the Galway psyche that the championship starts in August. He was saying that people in Galway wouldn’t really know that they’ve started the championship – they might think there’s some preliminary round on now and that they’ll be playing Kilkenny in a semi-final sometime.

Dathi Reagan was suggesting that they give a lack of respect to a lot of teams. Giving his own Offaly as an example he said that in the 90s they always felt that when they beat Kilkenny and drew Galway that Galway were always fairly sure they’d win.

I think they both have good points. I’d extend Conor Hayes’ point to say that Galway people’s interest in the county team isn’t actually that great. If you look at the Galway thread on boards there’s very little discussion on hurling on it. The attendances for a county of it’s population are very poor. I even live with a Galway lad who apparently likes hurling, but I have never seen him go to a game and he generally doesn’t even know they’re playing.

Dathi Reagan’s point was also quite fair. I remember playing them in 09 and the Galway people I spoke to were massively confident that they were going to beat us. Galway had beaten no-one decent for 3 years before and finally beat someone decent in 09 (was it Cork?). Whereas Waterford still had good pedigree. We were on the decline, but still 3rd best in the country to be fair. They should have been confident that they could win, but not that they would.

The usual points are made about their teams performance in the club and underage championships. But I don’t think it can be understated how much easier the fewer games makes it for them. Waterford were the best minor team last year, but even though they were the best still lost twice and drew one. If you just need to win two game to win a championship (as they do in club and U21), you’re going to win far more. That said, even if they had to battle it out in Munster or Leinster I still think they’d win a few. The club and underage teams are usually excellent to be fair. I do find that part a little hard to understand. Maybe they’re concentrating on producing team that will win at underage level, and neglecting developing players who will win at senior level?

Finally, I don’t think the biggest problem was talked about enough. I think there’s a lack of talent in Galway. Over the last few years, Canning and Hayes are the only two forwards I’d really have coveted. I don’t think they’ve ever managed to find top class midfielders. They seem to find a new star at centre back every year or two, but no-one has cut it. The full back slot seems to be another problem and I don’t think they have a really good keeper.

For me, the enigma isn’t why they haven’t won an all Ireland in recent years, it’s why have we expected them to.

MfMan

blue note wrote: »

Newstalk had Dathi Reagan and Conor Hayes on yesterday talking about this. Some fair points were made.

Conor Hayes was suggesting that it’s in the Galway psyche that the championship starts in August. He was saying that people in Galway wouldn’t really know that they’ve started the championship – they might think there’s some preliminary round on now and that they’ll be playing Kilkenny in a semi-final sometime.

Dathi Reagan was suggesting that they give a lack of respect to a lot of teams. Giving his own Offaly as an example he said that in the 90s they always felt that when they beat Kilkenny and drew Galway that Galway were always fairly sure they’d win.

I think they both have good points. I’d extend Conor Hayes’ point to say that Galway people’s interest in the county team isn’t actually that great. If you look at the Galway thread on boards there’s very little discussion on hurling on it. The attendances for a county of it’s population are very poor. I even live with a Galway lad who apparently likes hurling, but I have never seen him go to a game and he generally doesn’t even know they’re playing.

Don't know why Hayes would say such a thing, as Galway have been playing c'ship hurling at least in July every year since the later 90s (since the backdoor, aka 'Greed-is-good' rule came in). The 'August' entry thing should be long gone out of the psyche now. Not sure re: Regan's point, as IIRC, Galway only played Offaly once in the 90's, 1994. Galway probably expected to win that, (rightly or wrongly) as they lost the AI final narrowly in '93 and had won the '91 (v Offaly) and '93 U-21 finals with goodish teams, some of whom were on the '94 team.

Galway fans are lukewarm and fickle and usually need a good win for the fairweather ones to come on board (e.g. 2012). More committed ones like meself always know when we're playing in fairness.

Dathi Reagan’s point was also quite fair. I remember playing them in 09 and the Galway people I spoke to were massively confident that they were going to beat us. Galway had beaten no-one decent for 3 years before and finally beat someone decent in 09 (was it Cork?). Whereas Waterford still had good pedigree. We were on the decline, but still 3rd best in the country to be fair. They should have been confident that they could win, but not that they would.

In fairness, in '09, Galway were in fairly good form going into that match; had run KK close in a good game in the Leinster semi' in Tullamore, beaten Clare in Ennis and possible bogey-team Cork in Thurles prior to the W'ford game. Cudda won that one too, but slack finishing by Aongus Callinan and Niall Healy, plus poor sideline decision making (no marker for Big Dan) put paid to that. (The history of Galway hurling up to present day is littered with costly management match day gaffs).

The usual points are made about their teams performance in the club and underage championships. But I don’t think it can be understated how much easier the fewer games makes it for them. Waterford were the best minor team last year, but even though they were the best still lost twice and drew one. If you just need to win two game to win a championship (as they do in club and U21), you’re going to win far more. That said, even if they had to battle it out in Munster or Leinster I still think they’d win a few. The club and underage teams are usually excellent to be fair. I do find that part a little hard to understand. Maybe they’re concentrating on producing team that will win at underage level, and neglecting developing players who will win at senior level?

Hmm.. maybe. You may get luckier if you've only fewer games to play, but having a second chance or backdoor is definitely an advantage, e.g. Waterford. However, the easy mantra of 'Galway conveyer belt of underage talent' is a bagatelle; victories over what I would consider the 'Hard 2' at underage, Tipp' and KK, over the past number of years have been surprisingly few. This IMO is the real standard to be measured by. Mattie Murphy is a legend at underage, but I often think the Minors would benefit by having a new voice and direction there for now.

Club team success could perhaps be explained by the fact that the Galway domestic c'ship is at least quite competitive and ultimate winners are well tested by the time they enter the AI series. (It helps that the players display a greater sense of camaraderie also!)

Finally, I don’t think the biggest problem was talked about enough. I think there’s a lack of talent in Galway. Over the last few years, Canning and Hayes are the only two forwards I’d really have coveted. I don’t think they’ve ever managed to find top class midfielders. They seem to find a new star at centre back every year or two, but no-one has cut it. The full back slot seems to be another problem and I don’t think they have a really good keeper.

For me, the enigma isn’t why they haven’t won an all Ireland in recent years, it’s why have we expected them to.

Perhaps more accurate to say it's the inability to develop the talent further, which is the function of the clubs ultimately. It's not numbers that is lacking in fairness. Another problem is absolute inconsistency. David Burke is the embodiement of this. As talented a player in the game at present, had quite a good league, but then got subbed last Sunday. Where do you go? (OTOH, if he was in KK he would probably only making the team now, maybe too much too soon is expected of him).

Goalkeeper at moment is quite acceptable, hopefully Ronan Burke can develop into a fine FB, Tannian at no. 6 the jury is still out on. We could have done with a better no. 6 and a natural no. 3 in 2012. But, barring probably KK, most counties can't get every position on the team filled satisfactorily, not just a Galway trait. One great failing I can't get my head around is why Galway can dismiss a team during the league with confidence and then struggle against them in the c'ship, that's a divide that really needs to be bridged.

As a passionate fan, the lack of AI success since '88 is of great concern to me and a deficit which I would dearly like to see filled. In mitigation, I think Ger Loughnane modernised hurling to a certain extent with Clare post-95 in terms of zealous team preparation and fitness. It's taken Galway (and others) a while to catch onto this, but Galway in particular had been at a disadvantage due to an unequal system. For me, modern Galway hurling began since we joined Leinster and this is the period which we should be mostly keenly judged against.

Final point; why not have this debate about Tipp' also?

deisedude

Only having to win 2 games to win an All Ireland under age is ridiculous and makes Galways young talent look far better than it is. They would have far less underage success if they played in Leinster at all levels however it might harden them to be better when they get to senior

blue note

MfMan wrote: »

Final point; why not have this debate about Tipp' also?

Tipp is a bit of an odd one as well, but they did win an All-Ireland and a few Munster titles. And they don't struggle past Laois and Westmeath. And they disposed of a few good teams quite comfortably over that time.

But I agree it is a bit odd that they've fallen back as much as they have. They seemed to have a good young team and great talent coming through.

Your post was excellent though, a very fair view of Galway hurling. I do sometimes go a bit hard on them, I think for the last couple of years that they're one of the better teams in the country.

blue note

deisedude wrote: »

Only having to win 2 games to win an All Ireland under age is ridiculous and makes Galways young talent look far better than it is. They would have far less underage success if they played in Leinster at all levels however it might harden them to be better when they get to senior

I think it would be better for everyone, probably mostly Galway, to have them put into Munster / Leinster at underage and club level.

MfMan

blue note wrote: »

I think it would be better for everyone, probably mostly Galway, to have them put into Munster / Leinster at underage and club level.

Of course it would.

That's maybe another problem with hurling (and football to a lesser extent) in Galway. They are, or have been, under the control of old-fashioned officials, mostly in thrall to success (and methods) from years gone by, and afraid to embrace modern ways. In fairness, to name just 2, I would not include football sec. Seamus O'Grady and Joe Byrne, hurling chairman, among these.

I was at the meeting a number of years back when the voting took place on whether to join Leinster or not. Most of those who spoke against joining were prominent but older figures within the county, including a number of the top table who spoke from the top table. They argued that it would have been better to try and force the GAA to adapt an open-draw, rather than Galway join a province, as some had painful memories of being in Munster during the 60s. (In fairness, they spoke of what they believed in). Shamefully, the one prominent official that was in favour of the join addressed the meeting from the back of the hall rather like a fugitive. Most of the others who spoke in favour of joining were of a younger profile, including one current player. It would make you tremble to realise how close the vote came to reject the proposal rather than allow Galway hurling 'take it's place among the nations of the earth'!

purplepanda

Galway going into the Leinster minor & U21 & also probably the club Leinster Hurling competitions would set back Leinster counties such as Carlow & Laois who have often beaten rival sides who were strong favourites before games over recent years.

Leinster already has Galway & Antrim in the senior championship as well as London & possibly soon Kerry. :pac:

Galway should play in instead play in Munster, there's more than enough room in those minor , U21 & club championships. Underage Leinster already has enough participants.

gordongekko

Too much in fighting. To little heart.

MfMan

gordongekko wrote: »

Too much in fighting. To little heart.

Too simplistic analysis.

donnem33

purplepanda wrote: »

Galway going into the Leinster minor & U21 & also probably the club Leinster Hurling competitions would set back Leinster counties such as Carlow & Laois who have often beaten rival sides who were strong favourites before games over recent years.

There in is the problem. Galway are very strong at underage level and would not be welcome by the majority of counties as it would weaken their chances of winning.

As one poster already mentioned and in my opinion is the solution, the only alternative is an open draw championship. Too much fuss is made of the provincial championships and I believe they have served their time and an open draw would lead to a more equal and better competition!

Sorry I just joined today and am not sure how to quote other people but just to clarify one poster for Galway underage teams. They play 3 games at minor level. They play the Munster/Leinster runners up in the Quarter final and the Provincial winners in the semi final. In u21 they play provincial championship winner. They are undercooked playing teams who have played many matches. Open draw allowing a fairer competition is the way to go!

gordongekko

MfMan wrote: »

Too simplistic analysis.

It's the problem in a nutshell

TBP

MfMan wrote: »

Too simplistic analysis.

It's the truth. I don't pay any heed to these ex hurlers or pundits trying to figure out what's going wrong in Galway hurling as they can't exactly say whats wrong on national radio or tv etc and end up only beating around the bush. Anyone that knows their onions about Galway hurling knows exactly whats's wrong. And as regards to their being little interest or whatever in hurling in Galway, horse****. I doubt there's another county championship in the country that draws the crowds like that of the Galway hurling championship.

savannahkat

What enigma. Limerick, Waterford & Dublin are in the same boat if not winning a senior All Ireland is an enigma. Galway are just picked out because they are in automatic q/f and s/f at underage and look better than they really are. Any of these other counties would have won as much underage as Galway if they had the same easy passage.
Let their be an open draw at minor and under 21.

blue note

TBP wrote: »

It's the truth. I don't pay any heed to these ex hurlers or pundits trying to figure out what's going wrong in Galway hurling as they can't exactly say whats wrong on national radio or tv etc and end up only beating around the bush. Anyone that knows their onions about Galway hurling knows exactly whats's wrong. And as regards to their being little interest or whatever in hurling in Galway, horse****. I doubt there's another county championship in the country that draws the crowds like that of the Galway hurling championship.

But is it interest in the clubs, but not the county?

donnem33

savannahkat wrote: »

What enigma. Limerick, Waterford & Dublin are in the same boat if not winning a senior All Ireland is an enigma. Galway are just picked out because they are in automatic q/f and s/f at underage and look better than they really are. Any of these other counties would have won as much underage as Galway if they had the same easy passage.
Let their be an open draw at minor and under 21.

Easy passage? They have still beaten the provincial winnners and one of the provincial losers to get to the final ie the best teams in the particular province. I believe even if they were in the provincial championships they would have won just as many if not more titles. It is unfair to tarnish the titles won - a few of them were exceptional teams! its not galways problem the system is flawed. However I would agree with you on the open draw but include senior aswell!

MfMan

TBP wrote: »

It's the truth. I don't pay any heed to these ex hurlers or pundits trying to figure out what's going wrong in Galway hurling as they can't exactly say whats wrong on national radio or tv etc and end up only beating around the bush. Anyone that knows their onions about Galway hurling knows exactly whats's wrong. And as regards to their being little interest or whatever in hurling in Galway, horse****. I doubt there's another county championship in the country that draws the crowds like that of the Galway hurling championship.

I think the original point was more towards support for the county team.

TBP

savannahkat wrote: »

What enigma. Limerick, Waterford & Dublin are in the same boat if not winning a senior All Ireland is an enigma. Galway are just picked out because they are in automatic q/f and s/f at underage and look better than they really are. Any of these other counties would have won as much underage as Galway if they had the same easy passage.
Let their be an open draw at minor and under 21.

Not to sure it's as clear cut as that, easy routes to finals etc. The club scene sort of says that the county has or should have enough talent to be winning senior AI's

Since the year 2000 five different Galway Clubs won seven AI club championships between them. Twelve AI's between nine clubs since Galway last won a senior in 86'.

It's the prick acting that goes on when they get together and inter county club politics that has been the big issue in recent times. Plain and simple. If there was none of that they'd have at least two or three AI's won since the last time.

MfMan

savannahkat wrote: »

What enigma. Limerick, Waterford & Dublin are in the same boat if not winning a senior All Ireland is an enigma. Galway are just picked out because they are in automatic q/f and s/f at underage and look better than they really are. Any of these other counties would have won as much underage as Galway if they had the same easy passage.
Let their be an open draw at minor and under 21.

Don't necessarily think so. All things considered, the club c'ship is probably the most equitable of all hurling competitions, and the one that Galway has most excelled in. Maybe it's this success, and it's inability to translate to the county team, that is giving people a misleading picture of where the county should be at.

Underage open draw? For sure, but maybe a lot wouldn't vote for it as they may fear it would lead to open draw across the board.

Grats

donnem33 wrote: »

Easy passage? They have still beaten the provincial winnners and one of the provincial losers to get to the final ie the best teams in the particular province. I believe even if they were in the provincial championships they would have won just as many if not more titles. It is unfair to tarnish the titles won - a few of them were exceptional teams! its not galways problem the system is flawed. However I would agree with you on the open draw but include senior aswell!

That's all very well but if the Galway minors started their campaign in April like most other counties, broke for the exams, and them come back and try to peak, again, for the remainder of the championship they just might find it difficult. And finding it difficult may be just the thing they need - losing a tough campaign might be more beneficial to them than winning a handy one.

Whether you disagree or not, clearly there is a problem. Entering the Leinster championship at all leave including clubs would be worth a try.

Doing nothing ain't the solution.

donnem33

Grats wrote: »

That's all very well but if the Galway minors started their campaign in April like most other counties, broke for the exams, and them come back and try to peak, again, for the remainder of the championship they just might find it difficult. And finding it difficult may be just the thing they need - losing a tough campaign might be more beneficial to them than winning a handy one.

Whether you disagree or not, clearly there is a problem. Entering the Leinster championship at all leave including clubs would be worth a try.

Doing nothing ain't the solution.

I completely agree with you in that something has to be done. I would be in favour of all galway teams, including club winners, enter the leinster championship. However, I strongly believe it would meet strong objection from other leinster counties barring maybe kilkenny and one or two others. Therefore the only other alternative and perhaps fairest approach is open draw and scrap all the provincial championships

blue note

MfMan wrote: »

Don't necessarily think so. All things considered, the club c'ship is probably the most equitable of all hurling competitions, and the one that Galway has most excelled in. Maybe it's this success, and it's inability to translate to the county team, that is giving people a misleading picture of where the county should be at.

Underage open draw? For sure, but maybe a lot wouldn't vote for it as they may fear it would lead to open draw across the board.

In fairness, the club championship isn't at all the most equitable. The Galway and Antrim champs effectively start in the AI semi final each year. Looking at Antrim teams records in semi finals, it's by all accounts an easy draw, which Galway get 1 in 3 years. Those years they have one tough match to win an AI, the other years they have 2. Munster Leinster teams have to win a few extra games which does make a big difference.

I still think they'd have won a few titles, just not as many if they had to go into Leinster / Munster.

Grats

donnem33 wrote: »

I completely agree with you in that something has to be done. I would be in favour of all galway teams, including club winners, enter the leinster championship. However, I strongly believe it would meet strong objection from other leinster counties barring maybe kilkenny and one or two others. Therefore the only other alternative and perhaps fairest approach is open draw and scrap all the provincial championships

Well I would imagine you have a better chance of entering Leinster than getting an open draw.

It's surely time for Galway to lead the way by canvassing their own clubs on the issue of entering Leinster at all levels. Assuming they get agreement they would be in a position to further canvass the Leinster counties. No point in saying they're not wanted in Leinster when they don't know what their own clubs want. It's time to bite the bullet and stop putting up excuses.

MfMan

blue note wrote: »

In fairness, the club championship isn't at all the most equitable. The Galway and Antrim champs effectively start in the AI semi final each year. Looking at Antrim teams records in semi finals, it's by all accounts an easy draw, which Galway get 1 in 3 years. Those years they have one tough match to win an AI, the other years they have 2. Munster Leinster teams have to win a few extra games which does make a big difference.

I still think they'd have won a few titles, just not as many if they had to go into Leinster / Munster.

Oh aye, not equitable in that way, but equitable in the sense that all clubs (depending on the structure of their domestic c'ship) should or do get to play a good number of games, and even have the luxury of losing one or two, and still progress. I doubt if any senior club (from the main hurling counties at any rate) are knocked straight out after 1 game.

donnem33

blue note wrote: »

In fairness, the club championship isn't at all the most equitable. The Galway and Antrim champs effectively start in the AI semi final each year. Looking at Antrim teams records in semi finals, it's by all accounts an easy draw, which Galway get 1 in 3 years. Those years they have one tough match to win an AI, the other years they have 2. Munster Leinster teams have to win a few extra games which does make a big difference.

I still think they'd have won a few titles, just not as many if they had to go into Leinster / Munster.[/QUOTE

The Munster/Leinster club championship finishes up around November early December. The Galway championship finished up late October or early November. Both have a long layoff until February when the All Ireland resumes. It does not make that much off a difference. If the Leinster or Munster teams were good enough they would win it out. Simple as that. It is widely acknowledged that the Portumna team 2008-2010 would beat alot of senior county teams. The ease the won the all irelands shows it would not have made much difference if they were in Leinster or not. And just to clarify, the Galway champions had to play a Connacht final up until around 2007 (Im not 100% sure but it was around this time when it ceased due to the embarrassing scorelines!) I think only once had a Galway team not won Connacht and that was back in the late 1980's

Grats

blue note wrote: »

In fairness, the club championship isn't at all the most equitable. The Galway and Antrim champs effectively start in the AI semi final each year. Looking at Antrim teams records in semi finals, it's by all accounts an easy draw, which Galway get 1 in 3 years. Those years they have one tough match to win an AI, the other years they have 2. Munster Leinster teams have to win a few extra games which does make a big difference.

I still think they'd have won a few titles, just not as many if they had to go into Leinster / Munster.

I agree. Leinster and Munster clubs have to hurl, at their best, into Dec and then come back in the new year and peak again. It's a similar situation with minors - every other county is playing from April, break for exams and then come back and try to peak again. Meanwhile Galway minors start in July.

Agree with it or not, the current system is skewed and is not serving Galway hurling well, long term.

threeball

Too much in fighting in Galway hurling to the extent that its almost impossible to put that behind you when you pull on the county jersey. Its more civil war than hurling championship.

Regarding our supporters there is a bit of an identity crisis as there is a very distinct division between the hurling area and the football area so the supporting population is as good as cut in half and no-one really tends to come on board in either the football or the hurling until there's at least a Connaught final on the line. It also doesn't help that both teams do have a bit of a superiority complex to all bar maybe the 3 top counties in either code leaving us wide open to unexpected beatings on a regular basis. Its hard to keep going back for those.

savannahkat

They come in fresh at the q/f stage which is a massive advantage.

donnem33

savannahkat wrote: »

They come in fresh at the q/f stage which is a massive advantage.

I disagree. They have no match played, they are not battle hardened and dont necessarily know what their best team would be as they dont have the advantage of playing any matches. Training and playing challenges is all well and good but its in the heat of championship where you find out about players.

I feel it is the the losing provincialist they are playing in the q-final who have the major advantage. They lose a game yet are allowed back into the championship and they will have learned a lot about themselves in defeat. Whereas Galway could have just one game and thats that. how is the fair?

Take waterford minors last year for example. At august/september they were undoubtedly the best minor team in ireland. However, they lost 2 matches. They were able to learn from those defeats and tweak their team and went on to comfortably win the all ireland and fair play to them. its the system thats wrong and needs change!

TBP

We'll try and get them on to the same bus first so to speak and we'll talk about systems and Leinster or the possibility of landing them into the Munster championship then.

Pearlstone

The clue is in the name of the thread! The only reason Galway are perceived as an enigma stems from the perception of many that they have the veritable conveyor belt of talent. No doubt they have many talented players but I firmly believe that in any given year Galway could probably field three teams of relatively similar ability. Therein lies the problem. Aside from Joe Canning (the on form version) the rest are much of a muchness in terms of quality. The reality is that Galway just have not been good enough for the past 25 years.
The arguments in relation to the Club championship do not stack up. This has no bearing or relevance on the AI Senior Hurling championship. Underage success can also be discarded as an argument. As previous posters have pointed out these have been achieved with the winning of two/three games which is no way dismissing the achievements of winning these championships but it is not how a senior AI is won nowadays.

The longer Galway go without winning a senior AI hurling title the more fragile the mindset has become and this has also contributed to losing some games that could have been won but for me there is no enigma. It is a simple case of not being good enough.

locked

TBP wrote: »

We'll try and get them on to the same bus first so to speak and we'll talk about systems and Leinster or the possibility of landing them into the Munster championship then.

this is lies that story is not true.

locked

threeball wrote: »

Too much in fighting in Galway hurling to the extent that its almost impossible to put that behind you when you pull on the county jersey. Its more civil war than hurling championship.

Regarding our supporters there is a bit of an identity crisis as there is a very distinct division between the hurling area and the football area so the supporting population is as good as cut in half and no-one really tends to come on board in either the football or the hurling until there's at least a Connaught final on the line. It also doesn't help that both teams do have a bit of a superiority complex to all bar maybe the 3 top counties in either code leaving us wide open to unexpected beatings on a regular basis. Its hard to keep going back for those.

what civil war?