Is this safe?

Mycro

An electrician today, doing second fix on a kitchen connected my dishwasher to a line from a fused connection unit with a connection block and left the connection block unprotected. The block will sit behind the kitchen cupboards and under the counter so will not normally be accessible by anyone. Is this normal practice? I would at least have though it would be protected by a junction box.

To make matters worse, one of the flexes was running over and then dropping behind the waste water pipe.

Sir Arthur Daley

That is unsafe, what you have described there is the work of a cowboy.

Mycro

Thanks Arthur. What is the correct way?

Sir Arthur Daley

There are alot of correct ways, he should have put a socket instead of joining the flex off machine to cable coming from switched fused unit, switched fuse unit can be just a double pole switch too. I puts the sockets into units or like in your case in the sink unit wall mounted.
Was it a moulded plug as if it was and if your machine develops a fault and you call the service engineer alot of brands will not stand over this. I see a washing machine that had its plug cut off and was put through a hole into and a 3 pin plug fitted to it dismissed and company did not stand over it.

Mycro

Arthur, it's a built-in dishwasher and had previously been connected to a fused unit, so he didn't have a choice there. My concern is really that he connected it to a line from the dedicated fused (single pole) unit and left the connection block exposed (and sitting on the waste water pipe that the dishwasher pipe is siting into).

Is this aspect an issue? Given the limitation he had in terms of the Plug being gone, what is the correct approach?

Sir Arthur Daley

Mycro wrote: »

Arthur, it's a built-in dishwasher and had previously been connected to a fused unit, so he didn't have a choice there.

He did, mount a wall mounted socket in the sink unit, the dishwasher is beside the sink unit is it?

My concern is really that he connected it to a line from the dedicated fused (single pole) unit and left the connection block exposed (and sitting on the waste water pipe that the dishwasher pipe is siting into).

You are right to be concerned, that is wrong.

[QUOTEwhat is the correct approach?][/QUOTE]

What i posted in last post.

Mycro

The sink unit is two units away. He won't be able to get a socket to there now as the kitchen has been installed.

What's the best way to rescue this? I presume he should at least put a junction box around the connection block? Is there anything else? The counter top goes on tomorrow morning so I need to get him correcting this first or his access becomes more limited!

Sir Arthur Daley

Is the waste pipe and cold water connections directly behind the appliance?

Mycro

The cold water connection is behind at the bottom of the appliance. The waste water pipe for the dishwasher is behind the adjoining unit.

The FCU is above counter level, directly above the waste. There is a hole cut below counter level to take a line from the FCU.

The dishwasher is joined to that line below the counter with a connection block.

Any thoughts?

Thank you.

Sir Arthur Daley

I would wall mount a socket anywhere behind the machine that it wont impede on the machine slotting in i.e sometimes there is not much room behind machine and wall. Reinstate a plug top on the flex. There is nothing wrong with having an appliance fused twice.
Is there a shallower cupboard to accommodate the waste? you could put socket there too or into a unit.

Mycro

Unfortunately there's no way to do a socket in or behind a cabinet at this stage. The backs of all the adjoining cabinets are fixed and the sink one is too-far away.

What if he dropped an extension lead with socket from the FCU to the ground and plugged the machine into that (with a new plug on it obviously)?

Sir Arthur Daley

Mycro wrote: »

Unfortunately there's no way to do a socket in or behind a cabinet at this stage. The backs of all the adjoining cabinets are fixed and the sink one is too-far away.

What is stopping him putting a socket into the press lhs or rhs of appliance?

Mycro

I think I've found a way based on one io your suggestions. He could put a surface mounted socket behind a nearby corner unit. Would that be okay? he would not be able to run the flex from the FCU behind the drywall, but it would be behind the unit and under the counter in any case.

The only downside is that I don't really want him messing about spreadeagled on top of my new kitchen fidgeting away for half an hour!

Regardless, would that be an acceptable solution?

Sir Arthur Daley

Mycro wrote: »

I think I've found a way based on one io your suggestions. He could put a surface mounted socket behind a nearby corner unit. Would that be okay? he would not be able to run the flex from the FCU behind the drywall, but it would be behind the unit and under the counter in any case.

The only downside is that I don't really want him messing about spreadeagled on top of my new kitchen fidgeting away for half an hour!

Regardless, would that be an acceptable solution?

I dont follow you here, wind back a small bit here. On alot of dishwashers the lower back of the machine is not as deep as the rest of it is yours like that?

Mycro

Ah yes, he could probably put a socket down there. There is room for the cold supply there. Thank you Sir! Now why didn't I think of that.

If not, there is a corner cabinet next to it. There is room behind that to install a socket. However, it would have to be surface mounted (on the plasterboard rather than recessed into the drywall) as access to the area now is limited. Would that be okay too, even if the flex from the fused unit to the socket would not be buried in the dry wall either?

Sir Arthur Daley

What ever solution works go with it, having a cable on surface dont matter. Not knocking your electrician but I dont have much confidence in him. You should not be trying to find solutions to someone you hired to do the job.

Mycro

Arthur, I agree. My building contractor hired him and I'll have words in the morning. To be honest, I'm going to ask him to get rid and have someone else complete the job and certify what has already been done.

I already have issues where I think sparks is taking the piss. For example, three days labour to run coax and cat 5 cables between four rooms on diff floors (which I supplied) when all the floorboards and ceilings removed and joists were exposed, on top of the time for another guy to cut the holes!

Sir Arthur Daley

Is he working on day work?

Mycro

I doubt my contractor is paying him by the day, but the bill I got for this extra cabling I asked for was three days labour because I was told that's how much extra time he had to spend. To be honest, I expected about 5-6 hours work, not 18 or 20! I would have done it myself otherwise! I won't be paying it.

I believe most of that work is probably being done by a green apprentice. He seems very slow on other counts too.

Sir Arthur Daley

Even without seeing your installation that sounds excessive, one would go a long ways in first fixing a house in 20 hours.
You need to talk to the builder since it was him who employed. Always price everything even get price for extras if you don't you leave yourself wide open for people to take advantage.

Mycro

Arthur, I know well and this is the one element I didn't have under control and it has been playing on my mind until I got the price. I will however argue it to the hilt.

Thanks for your advice on this topic. It's much appreciated.

Sir Arthur Daley

No problem, keep the conversation cool maybe the builder is being taken advantage by the electrician too. I dont know what you are going to say about the cable being connected by connectors as you are questioning a professionals work. If your builder is honest he will back your side on this as to anyone seeing bare connector is obviously wrong. Just hope other work done now is not done incorrectly.

tomdempsey200

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

That is unsafe, what you have described there is the work of a cowboy.

cowboy
god knows what the rest of it us like if he doesn't fit an enclosure on a joint

Mycro

Following on from this, I described the problem to my building contractor yesterday morning. From Arthur's advice, I told him how the dishwasher should have been wired. This has now been done, although I have yet to check.

However, I also told the builder that I felt this was more fundamental than a simple mistake. It should be second nature to attach a junction box to that type of connection before the connection is made (you can't do it afterwards). I went on to tell him I wanted the electrician out of the house and for someone else to complete the work and certify it.

The outcome is that the builder has let the electrician go.

The story doesn't end there however and this is where I am asking for advice because of the seriousness of what I shockingly (literally) discovered tonight.

I was beside two new double sockets that have yet to be fitted so the wires are protruding from the drywall boxes. These are on a new spur to the fuseboard. They would appear to have been connected to the fuseboard but the new trip switches are all down with tape over them to presumably discourage anyone from turning on,

However, about an hour ago, as I was picking up something from beside these on the floor, the back of my hand rested against these wires. I got a jolt. I pulled my arm away when I realised what was happening and probably woke any neighbours that weren't already awake by 6pm.

I have two little burn marks on my hand and some tingling just developing.

How this line could have power, I don't know. I confirmed it with a phase tester.

So this got me thinking about the mass of cables hanging inside the kitchen door for lighting, especially when I realised these are probably on the pre-existing lighting circuit that is energised. I decided to test these too. There are two common lines within the bundle and sure enough, these were live too.

Wha really bothers me is this. The lighting and socket circuits have been like that for a week and more. We have brushed past the lighting bundle several times a day for three weeks. There have been children in the house, whose eyes would have been quickly drawn to the socket cables if let loose.

As Arthur and Tom have said, this smacks also of a cowboy. My question is this...is there a complaints mechanism for electricians, and is it effective?


I ask because I don't think this guy should be working. He should not have the opportunity to try to kill more people.

rotun

Report him to reci

Sir Arthur Daley

Sorry to hear of all that op, you need to report him to whatever body he is registered with either Ecssa or Reci.
Your project will be held up now as the new electrician needs to fill out change of contrtactor but in the seriousness of what happened to I can see an investigation into it.

tomdempsey200

is he registered them?

prob best if he's thrown out

how the f do you leave first fix sockets and lighting wires live

Zen65

Mycro wrote: »

How this line could have power, I don't know. I confirmed it with a phase tester.

If the MCB is tripped then (assuming he has the MCB connected correctly to the phase) the live voltage you are seeing is likely to be a back-feed on the neutral? Neutrals are not always at earth potential when an appliance in the house is switched on.

It is also possible of course that the cowboy connected the MCB incorrectly, but that is actually hard enough to do.

Zen65

tomdempsey200 wrote: »

you might pick up a bit of induced voltage on a phase tester

sometimes also you hit a copper wire and think you got a shock

Difficult to induce a voltage in an domestic house that's large enough to light a phase tester.

And yes you can get a metallic jab from a dead copper wire that'll feel like it's live, but never a burn mark.

tomdempsey200

Zen65 wrote: »

Difficult to induce a voltage in an domestic house that's large enough to light a phase tester.

really ?
been a while since I used a phase tester

you'll pick it up on the non contract testers for sure

I thought the contact phase testers
testers could light off an induced voltage

tomdempsey200

if there's bare cables connected at the DB

and the breakers are just taped off

that's nearly as bad anyhow