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Property tax means you don't own your home.

24

Comments

  • #52
    Banjo String
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,380 ✭✭✭✭Banjo String


    USC is the greatest pain in my hole. Even Pat Rabbite described it as 'punitive'.

    It fecking galls me seeing how much I get taken off me each month, and I don't really understand where or what meant to fund.


  • #53
    Frank Lee Midere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,780 ✭✭✭Frank Lee Midere


    Jimmy Garlic wrote: »
    Property tax is money extorted from you by the state, you get absolutely nothing in return. Choose not to pay and you will be eventually be treated as a criminal, financially ruined, or even evicted, despite the fact you have done no harm to anyone. The system is contemptible and it is the essence of serfdom. If you have to pay a tax on your home then you simply don't own it anymore, you are paying rent to the state.

    All taxes are extorted from me by the state. I get as much back in property taxes as anything else.


  • #54
    No Pants
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,347 ✭✭✭No Pants


    donegal__road wrote: »
    I know a lady that bought some land 30 years ago. Her son built her a house on the land 25 years ago. She has a natural spring well as a water supply, and she owns a wind turbine which powers her house. She has an organic garden at the front of the house which she lives off.. why should she pay property tax? what services is she being provided with by the government?
    You're right, she shouldn't have to pay anything as she's not getting any services at all from the state. Once this is confirmed, we can go to her house, murder her, steal her stuff and burn her house down with no consequences.


  • #55
    Geuze
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,874 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    Banjo String wrote: »
    USC is the greatest pain in my hole. Even Pat Rabbite described it as 'punitive'.

    It fecking galls me seeing how much I get taken off me each month, and I don't really understand where or what meant to fund.

    The USC replaces two previous taxes.

    It is, in fact, lower than those previous two taxes.

    So most people pay less USC than what they paid in the two previous taxes.


  • #56
    Banjo String
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,380 ✭✭✭✭Banjo String


    Geuze wrote: »
    The USC replaces two previous taxes.

    It is, in fact, lower than those previous two taxes.

    So most people pay less USC than what they paid in the two previous taxes.

    What does it replace? Forgive my ignorance, southern Irish taxation is relatively new to me.


  • #57
    folan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,630 ✭✭✭folan


    Jimmy Garlic wrote: »
    Property tax is money extorted from you by the state, you get absolutely nothing in return

    I get nothing for tax.

    Nothing for tax.

    Nothing for tax.

    ****, best stop paying tax.


  • #58
    folan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,630 ✭✭✭folan


    Diego Simeone wrote: »
    In response to the thread title, are Maltese people the only people in Europe that own their own homes? The overwhelming majority of countries have property taxes.

    being Maltese is the dream!


  • #59
    Frank Lee Midere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,780 ✭✭✭Frank Lee Midere


    donegal__road wrote: »
    her son made a road leading down to the main road from her property.. it is not tarred, but it does the job.

    Amenities and services such as?

    Who is sitting at home all day?

    Did he build the main road? In any case your argument is spurious. I didn't call the cops, ambulance, draw the dole or claim a pension this year so where's my rebate on my 52%?


  • #60
    No Pants
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,347 ✭✭✭No Pants


    Geuze wrote: »
    The USC replaces two previous taxes.

    It is, in fact, lower than those previous two taxes.

    So most people pay less USC than what they paid in the two previous taxes.
    I don't think that's true. If I remember correctly, the health levy was 4% and the income levy was 2%. The USC for most people is 7% and the liability threshold is lower.


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  • #61
    Valetta
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,611 ✭✭✭Valetta


    folan wrote: »
    being Maltese is the dream!

    It's brilliant.


  • #62
    Frank Lee Midere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,780 ✭✭✭Frank Lee Midere


    No Pants wrote: »
    I don't think that's true. If I remember correctly, the health levy was 4% and the income levy was 2%. The USC for most people is 7% and the liability threshold is lower.

    And those taxes were just a few years old. The USC was just a rename. A rebrand.


  • #63
    shruikan2553
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,113 ✭✭✭shruikan2553


    I'm going to assume that Donegal_road is from and talking about Donegal. There is little services to avail of. Any that do exist are piss poor. Sometimes it feels like the government thinks we belong to the north and forgets about us.


  • #64
    Buzz Killington the third
    Closed Accounts Posts: 937 ✭✭✭Buzz Killington the third


    DoesNotCompute wrote: »
    Exactly. Property tax goes towards the services in a locality, for the benefi of everyone in that locality.

    Then it should be a flat rate, and not based on property value. If your property is worth more than others, it doesn't mean you'll be using the local main street any more and you certainly don't get better value for money for what you pay.


  • #65
    No Pants
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,347 ✭✭✭No Pants


    Frank Lee Midere wrote: »
    And those taxes were just a few years old. The USC was just a rename. A rebrand.
    They were nothing but a cash grab. Calling them a levy meant that they could be applied to almost all income, tax credits didn't apply. If you earn anything over the dole rate, the state wants its cut. That's less than €5 a hour, less than minimum wage.


  • #66
    Amirani
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,536 Mod ✭✭✭✭Amirani


    Buzz Killington the third wrote: »
    Then it should be a flat rate, and not based on property value. If your property is worth more than others, it doesn't mean you'll be using the local main street any more and you certainly don't get better value for money for what you pay.

    But taxes should be progressive and seek to redistribute wealth. People need to stop looking on them as service charges.


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  • #67
    Amirani
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,536 Mod ✭✭✭✭Amirani


    shruikan2553 wrote: »
    I'm going to assume that Donegal_road is from and talking about Donegal. There is little services to avail of. Any that do exist are piss poor. Sometimes it feels like the government thinks we belong to the north and forgets about us.

    Do you not have a health service/education service/police service?

    I'm fairly sure more money is spent by Government in Donegal than it gets back in taxation.


  • #68
    No Pants
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,347 ✭✭✭No Pants


    shruikan2553 wrote: »
    I'm going to assume that Donegal_road is from and talking about Donegal. There is little services to avail of. Any that do exist are piss poor. Sometimes it feels like the government thinks we belong to the north and forgets about us.
    That's what happens when you decide to live on the far side of Ballygobackwards. You have less services because everything is more expensive to provide.

    It'd be worse if the good people of Dublin didn't subsidise you as much as they do or at all.

    The government forces utility companies to provide people in remote areas with services at the same price as everyone else. If they stop doing that one day, you'll soon see how much things cost.


  • #69
    Buzz Killington the third
    Closed Accounts Posts: 937 ✭✭✭Buzz Killington the third


    Diego Simeone wrote: »
    But taxes should be progressive and seek to redistribute wealth. People need to stop looking on them as services charges.

    The people of Ireland were assured that the tax would cover local services. It was clearly a lie that nobody believed anyway, but I fail to see why this tax should be progressive. Paying more, doesn't give you any more benefits.


  • #70
    Amirani
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,536 Mod ✭✭✭✭Amirani


    Buzz Killington the third wrote: »
    The people of Ireland were assured that the tax would cover local services. It was clearly a lie that nobody believed anyway, but I fail to see why this tax should be progressive. Paying more, doesn't give you any more benefits.

    Either does paying more income tax? Ideally all taxation should be progressive.


  • #71
    Buzz Killington the third
    Closed Accounts Posts: 937 ✭✭✭Buzz Killington the third


    Diego Simeone wrote: »
    Either does paying more income tax? Ideally all taxation should be progressive.

    My biggest issue with this tax is that it has been imposed upon us based on what we already own. When you buy a car you know what the tax will be. They've just turned around and said "oh that's a nice house, give me €x tax now please". Going forward, people will see what the tax will be but for people who have already purchased a house and probable paid a lot in the way of stamp duty it's just nonsense!


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  • #72
    Amirani
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,536 Mod ✭✭✭✭Amirani


    Buzz Killington the third wrote: »
    My biggest issue with this tax is that it has been imposed upon us based on what we already own. When you buy a car you know what the tax will be. They've just turned around and said "oh that's a nice house, give me €x tax now please". Going forward, people will see what the tax will be but for people who have already purchased a house and probable paid a lot in the way of stamp duty it's just nonsense!

    Why should those that are so wealthy that they don't have to work be exempt from tax? Most super wealthy individuals don't pay income tax. A wealth tax such as this is easing the tax burden on income tax payers and shifting it towards those who hold wealth.


  • #73
    Maximus Alexander
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,080 ✭✭✭✭Maximus Alexander


    comongethappy wrote: »
    The road budget for 2013 was just over €400 million

    Motorists contribute over €4 bn in taxes.

    No one gives proportionally more for receiving less than the motorist.

    Oh, did they build all the roads in the country in 2013?


  • #74
    Buzz Killington the third
    Closed Accounts Posts: 937 ✭✭✭Buzz Killington the third


    Diego Simeone wrote: »
    Why should those that are so wealthy that they don't have to work be exempt from tax?
    First, I never mentioned anything of the sort.
    Diego Simeone wrote: »
    Most super wealthy individuals don't pay income tax.
    Utter nonsense.
    Diego Simeone wrote: »
    A wealth tax such as this is easing the tax burden on income tax payers and shifting it towards those who hold wealth.
    The wealthy pay the majority of the tax. Tax them more and they'll just leave the country, it's that easy.


  • #75
    Amirani
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,536 Mod ✭✭✭✭Amirani


    Buzz Killington the third wrote: »
    First, I never mentioned anything of the sort.

    Utter nonsense.

    The wealthy pay the majority of the tax. Tax them more and they'll just leave the country, it's that easy.

    I'm talking about super wealthy rather than wealthy. You clearly don't understand the distinction.

    If they leave the country because of an increase in property tax, they'll still have to pay the tax or else they'll lose their asset. It doesn't work like income taxes.


  • #76
    IK09
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,055 ✭✭✭IK09


    Cookie_Monster wrote: »
    :rolleyes:

    of course you own it, stop being ridiculous

    You own it, but the bank has an interest in it. Thats why Buildings insurance is necessary, to protect the Banks interest in the property.


  • #77
    Buzz Killington the third
    Closed Accounts Posts: 937 ✭✭✭Buzz Killington the third


    Diego Simeone wrote: »
    I'm talking about super wealthy rather than wealthy. You clearly don't understand the distinction.

    If they leave the country because of an increase in property tax, they'll still have to pay the tax or else they'll lose their asset. It doesn't work like income taxes.

    If your argument is that the size or location of your house is an indication of wealth then it's a flawed argument. There are numerous people who bought houses up to as recent as 25 years ago that are now worth over 100x more than what they paid for them. This doesn't mean they have money to burn!


  • #78
    Maximus Alexander
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,080 ✭✭✭✭Maximus Alexander


    Diego Simeone wrote: »
    I'm talking about super wealthy rather than wealthy. You clearly don't understand the distinction.

    If they leave the country because of an increase in property tax, they'll still have to pay the tax or else they'll lose their asset. It doesn't work like income taxes.

    This is all very wishy washy. Define 'super wealthy'? What's their current tax take? What do you propose it should be? How significant would the difference be as a percentage of the current total tax take?

    Sounds like a platitude to me.


  • #79
    folan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,630 ✭✭✭folan


    still waiting to see how property tax means i cant own a home.


  • #80
    Trent Obnoxious Phlegm
    Posts: 0 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Trent Obnoxious Phlegm


    Buzz Killington the third wrote: »
    If your argument is that the size or location of your house is an indication of wealth then it's a flawed argument. There are numerous people who bought houses up to as recent as 25 years ago that are now worth over 100x more than what they paid for them. This doesn't mean they have money to burn!

    Particularly those who inherited family houses (and paid that stupid inheritance tax, I'm sure, which is again "give me your stuff for no reason") and can barely afford the upkeep
    First the argument is that it's for services - which it was supposed to be but certainly isn't now, hello council tax "lol of course it's not ringfenced" and now the argument is "well they're wealthy and we want some".
    Seriously
    Paying stamp duty and all sorts of other taxes on buying a house is bad enough in the first place, property tax is nonsense and "other people do it too yknow" isn't an argument for it


  • #81
    noodler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,531 ✭✭✭✭noodler


    Geuze wrote: »
    The USC replaces two previous taxes.

    It is, in fact, lower than those previous two taxes.

    So most people pay less USC than what they paid in the two previous taxes.
    No Pants wrote: »
    I don't think that's true. If I remember correctly, the health levy was 4% and the income levy was 2%. The USC for most people is 7% and the liability threshold is lower.

    Yeah, you had to be earning over 24,000 to pay the Health Levy IIRC.

    Still though, less for anyone earning more than 24,000 than the Health and Income Levies combined.

    The sooner they just amalgamate the USC and Income Tax the better. They both go into the same exchequer pot to fund general services, they are both taxes on income and neither is going anywhere.


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  • #82
    sbsquarepants
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭sbsquarepants


    The Diabolical Monocle wrote: »
    The unfortunate consequence of people buying golden toilets for their Bulgarian apartments while on weekend NY shopping trips back in 2005.

    It's actually largely the unfortunate consequence of a spineless government stupidly agreeing to nationalise the debts of a reckless and greedy private company. But sure don't let the facts get in the way of that misguided high horse of yours.


  • #83
    Amirani
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,536 Mod ✭✭✭✭Amirani


    Maximus Alexander wrote: »
    This is all very wishy washy. Define 'super wealthy'? What's their current tax take? What do you propose it should be? How significant would the difference be as a percentage of the current total tax take?

    Sounds like a platitude to me.

    Neither Denis O'Brien or Michael Smurfit pay any income tax in Ireland. There's 54 individuals who have a net worth of over 50m that don't pay income tax in Ireland, despite living here. I don't think it's unreasonable to be taxing their substantial assets in Ireland via property taxes.


  • #84
    Amirani
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,536 Mod ✭✭✭✭Amirani


    Buzz Killington the third wrote: »
    If your argument is that the size or location of your house is an indication of wealth then it's a flawed argument. There are numerous people who bought houses up to as recent as 25 years ago that are now worth over 100x more than what they paid for them. This doesn't mean they have money to burn!

    If you have a house worth over 5 million then yes, it is an indication of wealth.


  • #85
    RandomName2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,570 ✭✭✭RandomName2


    Turtwig wrote: »
    Motor tax, sorry, road tax, means you don't own your vehicle.

    Of course you do: you can own several vehicles and never pay a red cent in motor tax and the state can't do anything to you provided you don't drive on public roads. Generally that isn't an option for people of course, with the exception perhaps of farmers.


  • #86
    sbsquarepants
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭sbsquarepants


    bluewolf wrote: »
    Particularly those who inherited family houses (and paid that stupid inheritance tax, I'm sure, which is again "give me your stuff for no reason")

    Inheritance tax is particularly obscene imo. Anything left to you by, say your parents - they have already paid all the taxes on it, then they die and the state says - eh sorry for your loss, but we'd like some money for no particular reason, yes we know it's been paid already but we'd like it again thanks. Fúcking vultures:mad:


  • #87
    RandomName2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,570 ✭✭✭RandomName2


    Diego Simeone wrote: »
    If you have a house worth over 5 million then yes, it is an indication of wealth.

    Nominally, yes, but no indication of capacity to pay.

    Someone in Dublin should pay 5 times what someone in Limerick pays because wealth ...


  • #88
    folan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,630 ✭✭✭folan


    still waiting for anyone to explain how property tax means i can't own a home


  • #89
    Trent Obnoxious Phlegm
    Posts: 0 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Trent Obnoxious Phlegm


    sbsquarepants wrote: »
    Inheritance tax is particularly obscene imo. Anything left to you by, say your parents - they have already paid all the taxes on it, then they die and the state says - eh sorry for your loss, but we'd like some money for no particular reason, yes we know it's been paid already but we'd like it again thanks. Fúcking vultures:mad:

    That's my usual rant ^^
    Pay tax on earned income, pay tax on house purchase, pay tax again on property tax, pay tax again on inheritance?
    fcuk off...


  • #90
    Amirani
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,536 Mod ✭✭✭✭Amirani


    RandomName2 wrote: »
    Nominally, yes, but no indication of capacity to pay.

    Someone in Dublin should pay 5 times what someone in Limerick pays because wealth ...

    I wouldn't particularly have a problem with the geographical element being removed from the property tax - hence any charges being based around the variance in values from the mean levels within an area of the country.


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  • #91
    Maximus Alexander
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,080 ✭✭✭✭Maximus Alexander


    bluewolf wrote: »
    That's my usual rant ^^
    Pay tax on earned income, pay tax on house purchase, pay tax again on property tax, pay tax again on inheritance?
    fcuk off...

    They do this kind of thing all the time - pay tax on earned income, pay tax on buying a car, pay motor tax, pay tax on your insurance, pay tax on fuel.


  • #92
    Amirani
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,536 Mod ✭✭✭✭Amirani


    bluewolf wrote: »
    That's my usual rant ^^
    Pay tax on earned income, pay tax on house purchase, pay tax again on property tax, pay tax again on inheritance?
    fcuk off...

    I do find inheritance tax a lot more objectionable than property tax. Particularly when it's imposed on those who have no capacity to pay it outside of selling the asset.


  • #93
    Gambas
    Registered Users Posts: 846 ✭✭✭Gambas


    bluewolf wrote: »
    That's my usual rant ^^
    Pay tax on earned income, pay tax on house purchase, pay tax again on property tax, pay tax again on inheritance?
    fcuk off...

    Redistribution of wealth is a hideous concept, isn't it?


  • #94
    Trent Obnoxious Phlegm
    Posts: 0 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Trent Obnoxious Phlegm


    Gambas wrote: »
    Redistribution of wealth is a hideous concept, isn't it?

    Yes it is


  • #95
    The One Doctor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,339 ✭✭✭The One Doctor


    Jimmy Garlic wrote: »
    Nobody should pay it, it's concocted.

    Oh god, not another Freeman.


  • #96
    Buzz Killington the third
    Closed Accounts Posts: 937 ✭✭✭Buzz Killington the third


    Diego Simeone wrote: »
    If you have a house worth over 5 million then yes, it is an indication of wealth.

    No, it's not. It could just means you have an asset which has risen in value since you bought it or inherited it. Capacity to pay is something completely different.


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  • #97
    folan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,630 ✭✭✭folan


    Buzz Killington the third wrote: »
    No, it's not. It could just means you have an asset which has risen in value since you bought it or inherited it. Capacity to pay is something completely different.

    so assets are not an indicator of wealth?


  • #98
    Amirani
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,536 Mod ✭✭✭✭Amirani


    Buzz Killington the third wrote: »
    No, it's not. It could just means you have an asset which has risen in value since you bought it or inherited it. Capacity to pay is something completely different.

    Wealth doesn't just refer to monetary assets.

    I agree that capacity to pay is a worthwhile consideration.


  • #99
    Buzz Killington the third
    Closed Accounts Posts: 937 ✭✭✭Buzz Killington the third


    Gambas wrote: »
    Redistribution of wealth is a hideous concept, isn't it?

    It creates an attitude where people expect something for nothing. An attitude which is deeply prevalent in Ireland today. "Tax the rich" - no, just go and contribute more yourself!


  • #100
    Amirani
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,536 Mod ✭✭✭✭Amirani


    Buzz Killington the third wrote: »
    It creates an attitude where people expect something for nothing. An attitude which is deeply prevalent in Ireland today. "Tax the rich" - no, just go and contribute more yourself!

    Should children or those unable to work be entitled to expect something for nothing? Is the redistribution of wealth towards education and healthcare that facilitates social mobility and people's ability to "contribute more" immoral?


  • #101
    Buzz Killington the third
    Closed Accounts Posts: 937 ✭✭✭Buzz Killington the third


    Diego Simeone wrote: »
    Wealth doesn't just refer to monetary assets.
    Yes I know that. So lets look at it another way.... If I have a mortgage of 1.5m, have taken a 40% pay cut and my property is worth 800k am I wealthy?
    Diego Simeone wrote: »
    I agree that capacity to pay is a worthwhile consideration.
    Well then when you considering that can you not see that property tax is flawed.


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