Throwing down the gauntlet to beef farming

Kevin the sheep

willfarmerman wrote: »

If you are lucky enough to have a a piece of productive land with no debt attached you should be able to generate a bit of shopping money out of it. Excluding single farm payment. Now if you are snug finanancialy ie. wife working, a job, or got a big farm.. There is nothing wrong in investing the few bob back into the place as long as you are increasing your

Would be good land 120acres have a ok job wife stay at home mum so noting fancy but I don't want anything fancy just want to make a livening not get rich

Ya it was me that was on about the sr didn't know if it had been done or not

willfarmerman

Back to what the original poster said here lads. Harvest 2020 is a race to the bottom for farmers. More production = more work. More produce = less price per kilo or gallon. So we will be working harder for the same money at best.

Corsair2

Hold on to your horses fellas.

1. The dairy thing is going to crash in a few short years without a doubt. That's going to put a stop to a lot of that dairy expansion.

2. Unforeseen sh!t happens in farming all the time. Nobody knows where we will be in a few months never mind a few years.

3. Sheep are way more profitable than beef. I myself make €260 per acre NET (never mind that gross margin nonsense) with my sheep flock on rented land, they lamb out in the open, no sheds, no expense and guess what, that's without a single farm payment or reps or anything like like it. On the other hand I hate sheep.

So if you're not a big fan of beef there are other options than dairying, and you'll never lose your shirt with sheep.

4. One of the biggest problems with farming in this country is that there are so many farmers who are totally willing to not make money.

5. Land rent is a huge barrier. €100 per acre is more than enough for good land without entitlements. Unfortunately farmers are falling over each other to rent land for at least double that. The worst thing is that if they make some money on their own land they probably lose it on their rented land.

The thing is when you go "big" it's hard to come down. Nobody likes doing it. And so the whole thing continues........

moy83

Corsair2 wrote: »

Hold on to your horses fellas.

1. The dairy thing is going to crash in a few short years without a doubt. That's going to put a stop to a lot of that dairy expansion.

2. Unforeseen sh!t happens in farming all the time. Nobody knows where we will be in a few months never mind a few years.

3. Sheep are way more profitable than beef. I myself make €260 per acre NET (never mind that gross margin nonsense) with my sheep flock on rented land, they lamb out in the open, no sheds, no expense and guess what, that's without a single farm payment or reps or anything like like it. On the other hand I hate sheep.

So if you're not a big fan of beef there are other options than dairying, and you'll never lose your shirt with sheep.

4. One of the biggest problems with farming in this country is that there are so many farmers who are totally willing to not make money.

5. Land rent is a huge barrier. €100 per acre is more than enough for good land without entitlements. Unfortunately farmers are falling over each other to rent land for at least double that. The worst thing is that if they make some money on their own land they probably lose it on their rented land.

The thing is when you go "big" it's hard to come down. Nobody likes doing it. And so the whole thing continues........

I agree with everything there but I dont know if milk is going to " crash " . Sure the price might fall but that doesn't mean the arse is going to fall out of it completely either

Corsair2

willfarmerman wrote: »

Back to what the original poster said here lads. Harvest 2020 is a race to the bottom for farmers. More production = more work. More produce = less price per kilo or gallon. So we will be working harder for the same money at best.

Thanks willfarmerman

This is exactly what I'm saying we are not going to get anywhere by producing more.

If I expanded I know the landlord will have 200 and acre for doing nothing

The merchant will make more money because I'll have to buy more fert, spray, feed, etc.

The processors will have more beef (poor things they need it)

My machinery will need replacement sooner ( since it's made in Germany they'll be laughing)

I'll have to borrow money ( the banks are you friend when things go awry)

I'll have loads more work to do and I'll probably be financially worse off.

So, less is more.

Corsair2

moy83 wrote: »

I agree with everything there but I dont know if milk is going to " crash " . Sure the price might fall but that doesn't mean the arse is going to fall out of it completely either

18 cents a litre in three years mark my words

Average break even today is 23-24 cents a litre

That sounds like a crash to me.

Having said that I hope you're right, I don't like to see any farmer with his back to the wall no matter who they are. It's all hard work.

Kevin the sheep

Corsair2 wrote: »

Thanks willfarmerman

This is exactly what I'm saying we are not going to get anywhere by producing more.

If I expanded I know the landlord will have 200 and acre for doing nothing

The merchant will make more money because I'll have to buy more fert, spray, feed, etc.

The processors will have more beef (poor things they need it)

My machinery will need replacement sooner ( since it's made in Germany they'll be laughing)

I'll have to borrow money ( the banks are you friend when things go awry)

I'll have loads more work to do and I'll probably be financially worse off.

So, less is more.

Just wondering would it be possable to set up a business like truly irish the pig producers in the form of beef like you said willfarmerman produce less but you would get more for your produce a group of farmers selling direct to restaurants /hotels anyone who wants to buy and you could guarantee traceability what is killed must be produced on farm zero movements just for suckler farmers same goes for the sheep sector

_Brian

moy83 wrote: »

I agree with everything there but I dont know if milk is going to " crash " . Sure the price might fall but that doesn't mean the arse is going to fall out of it completely either

I saw an interesting article on Agriland last week about German Milk prices. It's costing something like 45c to produce and their getting 42c for it. From what I could see from the article they are leaning toward subbing the dairy farmers rather than see them leave milk. It seems quite the opposite I the feeling here where the processor is facilitated and the farmer is left fend for himself.
When in not on the phone I'll link to it.

Someone mentioned costs of keeping different cows. A teagasc article I read last year compared cows calved down at two rather than three which is the norm in Ireland. They consistently ate just 2/3 of the feed as the calving stopped their growth into massive cows who Hoover up all feed available.

I think producing less isn't necessary the answer. If your breaking even on 50 sucklers then having 45 won't mean much difference. Lads don't have a grip of the bottom line, mostly because they don't have to. Two posters here have already said the cattle break even but they live of the SFP anyway so they don't seem too bothered. This is the crux of the problem. Enough lads are subsidised to produce beef at cost so that is dilutes down the price.
If 2019 will see the SFP reduced that they can't live of it then this will bring some reality into the beef sector as it will be make profit or shut up shop. This will both reduce supply and focus lads on costs and profitability so we have a beef sector where the profit is on the produce itself and not on a handout that has lads hooked like heroin thinking they can't manage without it.
Yes it would bring a short period of turmoil, but those in beef at the end would be capable of making a living.

Corsair2

Producer groups could be done. No doubt.

Factories have tried to break up lamb producer groups before.

The first thing you need is a bunch of farmers who would be willing to join!

You need to have a round year supply so that requires forward planning.

You need to have the business acumen to run the whole show, that's not easy and you'll need to pay someone to do it probably.

Then you need a processor, the big factories won't entertain this.

Realistically you need to produce a premium beef, maybe Angus but more likely Hereford. Who sits down at a restaurant and asks for a steak from a 450 kilo Charolais steer? I certainly wouldn't want it.

What's the story with the marts seeking protected geographical status for Irish beef? Scot beef is all finished on concentrates out of sheds but they get the best price because they have protected status. It wouldn't hurt for Irish beef to have some premium status rather than being marketed as simply commodity beef.

larrymiller

Corsair2 wrote: »

Hold on to your horses fellas.

1. The dairy thing is going to crash in a few short years without a doubt. That's going to put a stop to a lot of that dairy expansion.

2. Unforeseen sh!t happens in farming all the time. Nobody knows where we will be in a few months never mind a few years.

3. Sheep are way more profitable than beef. I myself make €260 per acre NET (never mind that gross margin nonsense) with my sheep flock on rented land, they lamb out in the open, no sheds, no expense and guess what, that's without a single farm payment or reps or anything like like it. On the other hand I hate sheep.

So if you're not a big fan of beef there are other options than dairying, and you'll never lose your shirt with sheep.

4. One of the biggest problems with farming in this country is that there are so many farmers who are totally willing to not make money.

5. Land rent is a huge barrier. €100 per acre is more than enough for good land without entitlements. Unfortunately farmers are falling over each other to rent land for at least double that. The worst thing is that if they make some money on their own land they probably lose it on their rented land.

The thing is when you go "big" it's hard to come down. Nobody likes doing it. And so the whole thing continues........

100 per acre is not going to happen round here. I've a ten acre field let for the year 270 acre and I keep entitlements

Corsair2

larrymiller wrote: »

100 per acre is not going to happen round here. I've a ten acre field let for the year 270 acre and I keep entitlements

You should tell that to all the farmers who haven't a bob out of actually farming their land.

Why not let the rest? Do you make more farming it yourself?

What's it for may I ask?

Veg? A dairy farmer?

larrymiller

Corsair2 wrote: »

You should tell that to all the farmers who haven't a bob out of actually farming their land.

Why not let the rest? Do you make more farming it yourself?

What's it for may I ask?

Veg? A dairy farmer?

I let it out cause it's the only field that's outside the block.
Normally it's spring barley.

It's a dairy fella he sowed maize in it.

No I wouldn't make more farming it myself, but I'm not going to let out the whole farm, I live in the middle of it and it's just something I don't want to do.

I want to farm but I also want profit, working with a dairy farmer is something I will definitely consider down the road but I want to see how things pan out for the next few years without the quota.

ATM have the farm is spring barley and the rest is beef

Kevin the sheep

Corsair2 wrote: »

Producer groups could be done. No doubt.

Factories have tried to break up lamb producer groups before.

The first thing you need is a bunch of farmers who would be willing to join!

You need to have a round year supply so that requires forward planning.

You need to have the business acumen to run the whole show, that's not easy and you'll need to pay someone to do it probably.

Then you need a processor, the big factories won't entertain this.

Realistically you need to produce a premium beef, maybe Angus but more likely Hereford. Who sits down at a restaurant and asks for a steak from a 450 kilo Charolais steer? I certainly wouldn't want it.

What's the story with the marts seeking protected geographical status for Irish beef? Scot beef is all finished on concentrates out of sheds but they get the best price because they have protected status. It wouldn't hurt for Irish beef to have some premium status rather than being marketed as simply commodity beef.

I'm sure there would be a bunch of farmers willing to join and if you had spring and autumn calving herds there would be a year round supply but as you say would have to be planned kill yes would have to be aa or he now the stumbling for me would be the business part bit there is plenty of smart people out there would do it I'm sure and as for getting them killed there is an butcher with his own abattoir? Near me I'm sure if you were to ask he would kill them I know to work there would have to be certain scale to make it worth while but that would come with time everything starts out small and grows (or dies)

rangler1

Kevin the sheep wrote: »

I'm sure there would be a bunch of farmers willing to join and if you had spring and autumn calving herds there would be a year round supply but as you say would have to be planned kill yes would have to be aa or he now the stumbling for me would be the business part bit there is plenty of smart people out there would do it I'm sure and as for getting them killed there is an butcher with his own abattoir? Near me I'm sure if you were to ask he would kill them I know to work there would have to be certain scale to make it worth while but that would come with time everything starts out small and grows (or dies)

If you have approx. 52ha, surely your SFP will be at least €7500 in 2009 when everyone is supposed to be brought up to the average €150ha at least

Kevin the sheep

rangler1 wrote: »

If you have approx. 52ha, surely your SFP will be at least €7500 in 2009 when everyone is supposed to be brought up to the average €150ha at least

Didn't know the average was €150 per ha taught it was a lot less also was told it would be 1/4 of what we are getting now by a farmer over the road didn't know much to contradict him

coolshannagh28

Suckler and beef farmers need to take a more realistic approach ,they are subsidised by the EU to keep food prices for voter/consumer prices down so they must maximise subsidies and minimise losses on the actual farming .
Profit monitors indicate losses on the current model of high inputs high outputs ,the converse approach could be more rewarding, low inputs on traditional type cattle which are in demand in our primary markets .Take a miserly approach to the subs and try to make a small profit on the stock, minimise machinery, loans, fertilizer ,vets and forage ,overwinter less smaller stock and maximise grass gain .Buy wisely and target the market in times of shortage taking the premiums from Bord Bia and producer groups.

Corsair2

coolshannagh28 wrote: »

Suckler and beef farmers need to take a more realistic approach ,they are subsidised by the EU to keep food prices for voter/consumer prices down so they must maximise subsidies and minimise losses on the actual farming .
Profit monitors indicate losses on the current model of high inputs high outputs ,the converse approach could be more rewarding, low inputs on traditional type cattle which are in demand in our primary markets .Take a miserly approach to the subs and try to make a small profit on the stock, minimise machinery, loans, fertilizer ,vets and forage ,overwinter less smaller stock and maximise grass gain .Buy wisely and target the market in times of shortage taking the premiums from Bord Bia and producer groups.

Thank you sir.

_Brian

coolshannagh28 wrote: »

Suckler and beef farmers need to take a more realistic approach ,they are subsidised by the EU to keep food prices for voter/consumer prices down so they must maximise subsidies and minimise losses on the actual farming .
Profit monitors indicate losses on the current model of high inputs high outputs ,the converse approach could be more rewarding, low inputs on traditional type cattle which are in demand in our primary markets .Take a miserly approach to the subs and try to make a small profit on the stock, minimise machinery, loans, fertilizer ,vets and forage ,overwinter less smaller stock and maximise grass gain .Buy wisely and target the market in times of shortage taking the premiums from Bord Bia and producer groups.

Corsair2 wrote: »

Thank you sir.

This isn't throwing down the gauntlet to beef farming..
This is rolling over and playing dead in the belief that EU payments are the only way forward.
I might be convinced if it were tied to activity levels where active farms were rewarded for food production.. But you're proposing the exact thing that beef farmers hate to be accused of - sitting back doing SFA and holding your hand out !

Mad4simmental

_Brian wrote: »

If 2019 will see the SFP reduced that they can't live of it then this will bring some reality into the beef sector as it will be make profit or shut up shop. This will both reduce supply and focus lads on costs and profitability so we have a beef sector where the profit is on the produce itself and not on a handout that has lads hooked like heroin thinking they can't manage without it.
Yes it would bring a short period of turmoil, but those in beef at the end would be capable of making a living.

%100 agree. This is what I am really hopeing for. We cannot run a buisness If a huge % of lads are happy to just bank the sfp and give the factory's cost price beef, what other buisness in the world would do it.

Allot of lads will go ape **** if/when it is taken away. Atleast then the lads that genuinely want to give it a crack can and the ones that don't don't.

As long as there are any form of subs around we are only shooting ourselves in the foot IMO.

coolshannagh28

A large part of your subs are a tradable asset , foolish not to maximise it . Farmers are price takers in a subsidised market which is increasingly monopolised and manipulated in Ireland to the point where its virtually impossible to make a living profit .
In my discussion group we have a highly educated, motivated group of farmers who are losing money maximising inputs and outputs, sometimes its not a bad strategy to persue profit regardless of groupthink.

Viewtodiefor

I've been watching this thread with interest and am intrigued by the responses. Farmers hate being told to cut production (mostly) as they don't like the guy next door having more i think that's a given they are a fairly jealous lot. What has been suggested by the op is dead on and farmers are there own worst enemy when it comes to prices they see something doing well they all rush in so supply increases and price drops. This will never happen but would be great if it did let the governments and processors worry about beef supply instead of farmers worrying about pricefor a few years ! Ps on subsidies I agree they are the worst thing that happened for beef production.they support non profitable beef production giving processor the chance to cut prices.
Same will happen to milk price in years to come it will be shocking for some years, and don't anyone kid yourselves it won't.

Conmaicne Mara

willfarmerman wrote: »

Back to what the original poster said here lads. Harvest 2020 is a race to the bottom for farmers. More production = more work. More produce = less price per kilo or gallon. So we will be working harder for the same money at best.

100% correct. I said the same thing at an event recently and it didn't go down well.

Corsair2

_Brian wrote: »

This isn't throwing down the gauntlet to beef farming..
This is rolling over and playing dead in the belief that EU payments are the only way forward.
I might be convinced if it were tied to activity levels where active farms were rewarded for food production.. But you're proposing the exact thing that beef farmers hate to be accused of - sitting back doing SFA and holding your hand out !

Brian. When are you going to realise that the more we produce the more the price will fall.

It's simple economics.

There is absolutely nothing wrong, morally with a low input system. It's not about being lazy. You simply keep less cattle, and pay greater attention to what you've got. Financially it may be a far more sensible approach for all of us. Furthermore it will be far more environmentally sustainable which is what the European people want. So let them have it.

One thing is for sure. If the sfp was to be linked to production again it would be the last straw for a crippled industry.

Do you think it's impressive to be turning over several hundred thousand euro in cattle every year when there isn't a bob out of it at the end of the day? I certainly don't, it's stupidity to be perfectly honest.

rangler1

Kevin the sheep wrote: »

Didn't know the average was €150 per ha taught it was a lot less also was told it would be 1/4 of what we are getting now by a farmer over the road didn't know much to contradict him

Farmers journal will do a projected SFP for you on this website

http://www.farmersjournal.ie/toolbox/sfp.php

Kevin the sheep

According to that calculation I will only be down €1000 in 2019 v 2014 might have done it wrong

rangler1

Kevin the sheep wrote: »

According to that calculation I will only be down €1000 in 2019 v 2014 might have done it wrong

Reading your posts, I reckoned your SFP wasn't going to change much.
It is only a projection, it'll depend how much land is claimed on in 2015

Kevin the sheep

rangler1 wrote: »

Reading your posts, I reckoned your SFP wasn't going to change much.

We'll you have brightened up my day anyway good man cheers

_Brian

Corsair2 wrote: »

Brian. When are you going to realise that the more we produce the more the price will fall.

It's simple economics.

There is absolutely nothing wrong, morally with a low input system. It's not about being lazy. You simply keep less cattle, and pay greater attention to what you've got. Financially it may be a far more sensible approach for all of us. Furthermore it will be far more environmentally sustainable which is what the European people want. So let them have it.

One thing is for sure. If the sfp was to be linked to production again it would be the last straw for a crippled industry.

Do you think it's impressive to be turning over several hundred thousand euro in cattle every year when there isn't a bob out of it at the end of the day? I certainly don't, it's stupidity to be perfectly honest.

I'm not suggesting the more, more, more race to the bottom.. Focus on quality and costs is far more important..

However, the system you are proposing is already loaded against a whole section of beef farmers. Those for whatever reason who have little/no SFP to fall back on..
So some with the luxury of falling back on a SFP which provides a family income continue to produce stock at break even thus stagnating the price on those who would seek to farm profitably. Many, many of these farms relying on the SFP are not super efficient top class farms, many are but a shadow of their former selves from a different era. Every area has farms going to wreck and ruin because the farmer sits back, does the bare minimum to draw their SFP, this isn't progressive farming, its a shambles and tax payers across Europe are being taxed to the arse hole to support this farce.

I honestly look forward to a time when the SFP rug is pulled out from under these men and their farm needs to stand or fall based on their business ability. Maybe then they will understand the problem created by sitting back and holding out your hand for your income rather than developing a viable business.

I know this is an unpopular opinion, but you'll find its just unpopular to those with large payments to protect.. Its easy sitting back and nodding your head at the notion of cutting production and farming less - when your waiting on a €15-20k payment into the bank at the backend of the year.

cristeoir

_Brian wrote: »

I'm not suggesting the more, more, more race to the bottom.. Focus on quality and costs is far more important..

However, the system you are proposing is already loaded against a whole section of beef farmers. Those for whatever reason who have little/no SFP to fall back on..
So some with the luxury of falling back on a SFP which provides a family income continue to produce stock at break even thus stagnating the price on those who would seek to farm profitably. Many, many of these farms relying on the SFP are not super efficient top class farms, many are but a shadow of their former selves from a different era. Every area has farms going to wreck and ruin because the farmer sits back, does the bare minimum to draw their SFP, this isn't progressive farming, its a shambles and tax payers across Europe are being taxed to the arse hole to support this farce.

I honestly look forward to a time when the SFP rug is pulled out from under these men and their farm needs to stand or fall based on their business ability. Maybe then they will understand the problem created by sitting back and holding out your hand for your income rather than developing a viable business.

I know this is an unpopular opinion, but you'll find its just unpopular to those with large payments to protect.. Its easy sitting back and nodding your head at the notion of cutting production and farming less - when your waiting on a €15-20k payment into the bank at the backend of the year.

Do you not have an off farm job and is this not what actually gives you your living?
Are you not also part of the problem if you are not making enough on your land to farm full time or is it merely just good old begrudgery " I don't get it so why should he"????

_Brian

cristeoir wrote: »

Do you not have an off farm job and is this not what actually gives you your living?
Are you not also part of the problem if you are not making enough on your land to farm full time or is it merely just good old begrudgery " I don't get it so why should he"????

The argument is not full versus part time. The argument is profitability. My being part time is a scale thing as were profitable pre SFP. And yes we get SFP. So it's not a jealousy issue, I can see byond my own needs to the overall issues in the beef sector.

cristeoir

_Brian wrote: »

The argument is not full versus part time. The argument is profitability. My being part time is a scale thing as were profitable pre SFP. And yes we get SFP. So it's not a jealousy issue, I can see byond my own needs to the overall issues in the beef sector.

Yes I am aware of what the argument is but you are blaming the man who keeps a few cattle and lives of his sfp to live for the collapse in beef prices when everyone knows it was the farmers themselves to caused it two years when they outbid all the exporters for calves.
Maybe subsidies will be eliminated but these " armchair farmers " will still have there few cattle and will be living on rural assist instead of the sfp. Unless you think they should be forcefully evicted and their land given over to these " progressive farmers".

_Brian

cristeoir wrote: »

Yes I am aware of what the argument is but you are blaming the man who keeps a few cattle and lives of his sfp to live for the collapse in beef prices when everyone knows it was the farmers themselves to caused it two years when they outbid all the exporters for calves.
Maybe subsidies will be eliminated but these " armchair farmers " will still have there few cattle and will be living on rural assist instead of the sfp. Unless you think they should be forcefully evicted and their land given over to these " progressive farmers".

I'm not saying anyone should be forced of their farm.

cristeoir

So what do you think should happen Brian? I will aknowledge that the system was very unfair on new entrants into farming and I am happy to take a cut in my sfp so that others get some but I do not know of even 1 single farmer with a big sfp who is sitting back and living on it, all of them still farm as much as ever and more .
Whatever I make by selling my cattle goes back in to the land to keep it right - drainage ,fencing , reseeding and restocking.But because I only stock at one for every two acres it means I don't have big fertiliser ,meal , vet or contractors bills and I think this is what this thread is about.

_Brian

I appreciate the tone of the thread. I would agree that overstocking isn't necessarily increasing profitability on beef farms.
I do still disagree with lads happy to sit back breaking even knowing they will still have SFP to live of. There should always be an incentive to produce and produce at a profit.
If we don't strive to improve profitability and give up on the notion that beef can be profitable then it's no longer a business but merely a complex social welfare scheme - that notion disgusts me as I'm sure it does many.

Conmaicne Mara

_Brian wrote: »

I appreciate the tone of the thread. I would agree that overstocking isn't necessarily increasing profitability on beef farms.
I do still disagree with lads happy to sit back breaking even knowing they will still have SFP to live of. There should always be an incentive to produce and produce at a profit.
If we don't strive to improve profitability and give up on the notion that beef can be profitable then it's no longer a business but merely a complex social welfare scheme - that notion disgusts me as I'm sure it does many.

Can I ask, just out of interest as I don't have cattle so don't hold a particular view on it. But how in practical terms do you see the steps being on a farm for beef profitability? Like I said I am just asking out of interest in the model not for the sake of an argument.

Base price

I have been reading with interest and can see merit in both sides of the discussion.
I enjoy reading threads like this one.
I do agree with Brian in that some farmers do sit back and only farm in order to collect their SFP.
We have 3 guys who buy Fr/JEx bulls/bullocks from us every year in order to graze their land. Except for one man, they want the cheapest animals that they can buy irrespective of conformation/colour.
One man is elderly but the other two are in the 40/50's.
The elderly man picks the best cattle that we have for sale. He also buys from other people.

_Brian

I think it depends on where the farm is coming from.
Take something basic like grass utilisation. Traditionally suckler farms were notoriously bad grass managers with stock let roam over large areas of poor grass rotated maybe monthly.
With a little effort and very little expense farms can be divided into grazing blocks to rotate stock, this also facilitates forward grazing by calves.
Better grazing routines produces better grass and so simple steps can give considerable improvements.
Control of calving patterns is another, with lads letting cows drag on producing less calves then their peers, often late calves are sold at the back end as poor weanlings leaving less money than it cost to keep the cow for the year.

Corsair2

_Brian wrote: »

I appreciate the tone of the thread. I would agree that overstocking isn't necessarily increasing profitability on beef farms.
I do still disagree with lads happy to sit back breaking even knowing they will still have SFP to live of. There should always be an incentive to produce and produce at a profit.
If we don't strive to improve profitability and give up on the notion that beef can be profitable then it's no longer a business but merely a complex social welfare scheme - that notion disgusts me as I'm sure it does many.

Brian it's not the "lads happy to sit back" that are breaking even. Most of the time it's the lads who are following the mantra of 'high input, high output'. That is the fundamental problem. Not only are they not making any money themselves but they are part of the problem of oversupply which is the core issue here.

As cristeoir put it, the guys with the big payments are not sitting back because nobody can afford to do that. Firstly what is a big payment? The average industrial wage? Do you think that's a big payment? Nobody is getting rich off that especially if they have a family. There are a tiny minority of farmers above this mark in any case, it's not even worth talking about.

No real farmer wants to be an armchair farmer unless they aren't physically or mentally able for it any more. I don't resent them because they're not able for it. I can appreciate how they may be disillusioned with the behaviour of processors which has never been any different. Like the aforementioned 'big farmers' the amount of armchair farmers are negligible and a distraction.

You want to be a highly productive of a worthless commodity for some bizarre reason. You think that if we got rid of sfp that the processors will start paying you more and you'll be better off because you're so productive? Not a chance fellow. I said it before and I'll say it again, it's all about scarcity.

Finally here you are disgusted at farmers that don't follow your high-input high-output system. That's not disgusting sir, they're not undermining anyone else's farm business, but you, you have admitted yourself that you would sooner screw over every other beef farmer on these islands if you thought that you could get ahead by helping the processors manipulate the market.

That is disgusting.

_Brian

Corsair2 wrote: »

Brian it's not the "lads happy to sit back" that are breaking even. Most of the time it's the lads who are following the mantra of 'high input, high output'. That is the fundamental problem. Not only are they not making any money themselves but they are part of the problem of oversupply which is the core issue here.

As cristeoir put it, the guys with the big payments are not sitting back because nobody can afford to do that. Firstly what is a big payment? The average industrial wage? Do you think that's a big payment? Nobody is getting rich off that especially if they have a family. There are a tiny minority of farmers above this mark in any case, it's not even worth talking about.

No real farmer wants to be an armchair farmer unless they aren't physically or mentally able for it any more. I don't resent them because they're not able for it. I can appreciate how they may be disillusioned with the behaviour of processors which has never been any different. Like the aforementioned 'big farmers' the amount of armchair farmers are negligible and a distraction.

You want to be a highly productive of a worthless commodity for some bizarre reason. You think that if we got rid of sfp that the processors will start paying you more and you'll be better off because you're so productive? Not a chance son. I said it before and I'll say it again, it's all about scarcity.

Finally here you are disgusted at farmers that don't follow your high-input high-output system. That's not disgusting bro, they're not undermining anyone else's farm business, but you, you have admitted yourself that you would sooner screw over every other beef farmer on these islands if you thought that you could get ahead by helping the processors manipulate the market.

That is disgusting.

I'm not "son" and definitely not your "bro", please show other posters a little respect and courtesy.

And don't twist my point either.. Its disgusting that people have given up on profitability over easy payments and I stated before that I don't have an interest in high intensity stocking.. You seem to continually link profitability with high intensity farming when there is no need and I certainly haven't made that link.
I've no interest in screwing anyone over, do I think farming would be better without the SFP in its current guise? - I do, I'm not going to apologize for that opinion.

Corsair2

I certainly didn't intend those as words in any affectionate way nor did I intend them in a derogatory sense. I have edited the post accordingly. I hope this de-personalises it for you and we can deal with the facts.

I apologise if I have hurt your feelings.

munkus

Base price wrote: »

We have 3 guys who buy Fr/JEx bulls/bullocks from us every year in order to graze their land. Except for one man, they want the cheapest animals that they can buy irrespective of conformation/colour.
One man is elderly but the other two are in the 40/50's.

Funny thing is that we're told here every week on this forum that these are the only beef farmers making profit/money

Miname

I think thers a whole heap of idealistic and nearly comunist tripe being thrown out here. I classify myself as a progressive farmer and have more than doubled my output over the last three years. This is with constantly increassing both quality and numbers. The difference has been 20k from the first year to last year and thats after land has been bought and another shed erected, now no-one can tell me that i would be better off to keep less stock and and hope that we can get larry to rise prices to suit us. It was quoted in an article in the journal this week how Ireland was a "surplus beef producer" and in real terms always will be in my mind. We have the capabilities to produce even more and should. Britain they say produces only 70% of their requirement, its us that should be filling at least 29% of that market and still pumping animals over to the likes of spain and italy.
Heres a couple of clowns calling on us all to lye back and basically sign on rather than try to be better. Grow up. go out and have a go at the lack of drive there is to get better trade links with other countries and the grasp that, that scum lg has on the beef industry.

willfarmerman

munkus wrote: »

Funny thing is that we're told here every week on this forum that these are the only beef farmers making profit/money

Well now I can tell you I have no adversion to making money! And I don't care what colour or breed an animal is as long as it leaves me a turn but I wouldn't take a present of a badly conformed Holstein or a jersey. But friesian cattle can leave as much per hectare as other breeds.

farm14

Alot of farmers in beef & also sheep are loosing money & are taking some of their sfp to keep themselves in business. We can talk all we like about processors & prices etc but let's get to the point that is beef farmers not making any money. Why? What are the reasons at farm level? Are costs just to high? Can we not finish breeds like aberdeen angus & hereford that can finish quicker than their continental counterparts & minimise our cost of production through better grass management? As far as I can see beef farmers just never seem to change. Winter finishers lost alot of money this winter but I think they will go do the very same. My question is why? Why work hard over the winter putting high cost feed into cattle for little or no return. Their is too much farmer's working for free. Finishing cattle out of sheds on intensive feeding just isn't profitable. why do some keep working hard for no reward & end up having to use some of the sfp? If the sfp went I think lads would stop doing it fairly quickly. At the end of the day food has to be put on the table & whatever path has to be chosen whether it's a job or dairy contract rearing it just has to be the right thing to do. Think about it it doesn't make sense to work for for such little money or loose money. Work for Larry shur & I read the other day he is a multi millionaire. He is a prick. Beef men just work too hard for a poor return

moy83

Miname wrote: »

I think thers a whole heap of idealistic and nearly comunist tripe being thrown out here. I classify myself as a progressive farmer and have more than doubled my output over the last three years. This is with constantly increassing both quality and numbers. The difference has been 20k from the first year to last year and thats after land has been bought and another shed erected, now no-one can tell me that i would be better off to keep less stock and and hope that we can get larry to rise prices to suit us. It was quoted in an article in the journal this week how Ireland was a "surplus beef producer" and in real terms always will be in my mind. We have the capabilities to produce even more and should. Britain they say produces only 70% of their requirement, its us that should be filling at least 29% of that market and still pumping animals over to the likes of spain and italy.
Heres a couple of clowns calling on us all to lye back and basically sign on rather than try to be better. Grow up. go out and have a go at the lack of drive there is to get better trade links with other countries and the grasp that, that scum lg has on the beef industry.

We should definitely be opening up as many markets as possible before we go producing extra beef . Bord bia should be playing a huge role in this harvest 2020 craic by promoting our beef all over the world . I would sooner sell beef at the same or even a few cent less to someone else just to make lg work to get cattle for his contracts .

willfarmerman

Miname wrote: »

I think thers a whole heap of idealistic and nearly comunist tripe being thrown out here. I classify myself as a progressive farmer and have more than doubled my output over the last three years. This is with constantly increassing both quality and numbers. The difference has been 20k from the first year to last year and thats after land has been bought and another shed erected, now no-one can tell me that i would be better off to keep less stock and and hope that we can get larry to rise prices to suit us. It was quoted in an article in the journal this week how Ireland was a "surplus beef producer" and in real terms always will be in my mind. We have the capabilities to produce even more and should. Britain they say produces only 70% of their requirement, its us that should be filling at least 29% of that market and still pumping animals over to the likes of spain and italy.
Heres a couple of clowns calling on us all to lye back and basically sign on rather than try to be better. Grow up. go out and have a go at the lack of drive there is to get better trade links with other countries and the grasp that, that scum lg has on the beef industry.

Valid points and hats off to you well done. I am in your camp in what I am doing at home here but after the hammering I took this spring on cattle I cNt disagree with the original poster. If we produce more beef nationally as harvest 2020 is projecting we should. Will we be rewarded or will we be working harder for at best the same. We had a marginal increase in supply this year. I pay bord bia levies on every animal. An f all was done to secure extra marketplace for the extra beef. The primary producer had to take the hit.

Base price

munkus wrote: »

Funny thing is that we're told here every week on this forum that these are the only beef farmers making profit/money

All three of these guys sold land near towns/cities during the boom times and are probably sitting on a nice nest egg along with their SFP.
They have none of the financial worries that most of us have. Good luck to them, I would like to be in their shoes at the moment.

cristeoir

I am baffled by how people assume if sfp was gone and we produce more beef it will lead to an increase in price . Meal is the main ingredient in cattle finishing diets and unless a farmer has his own mill where exactly can he cUt costs - unless it is for the price he pays for weanlings which hits on the suckler man and squeezes him further

Miname

cristeoir wrote: »

I am baffled by how people assume if sfp was gone and we produce more beef it will lead to an increase in price . Meal is the main ingredient in cattle finishing diets and unless a farmer has his own mill where exactly can he cUt costs - unless it is for the price he pays for weanlings which hits on the suckler man and squeezes him further

do you live in the real world. lets save a couple of euro on a ton of meal, but invest tens of thousands in all the equipment needed to make a couple of acres of barley, wheat or whatever it may be. Meal plays a part in beef but theres a multitude of costs associated that can be rectified with very little investment without getting into another aspect of farming that would provide another form of skillsets being needed to learn. Let the lads who grow grain , do just that. They have spent years learning and adapting to their environment. its not something that can just be picked up.

J.O. Farmer

cristeoir wrote: »

I am baffled by how people assume if sfp was gone and we produce more beef it will lead to an increase in price . Meal is the main ingredient in cattle finishing diets and unless a farmer has his own mill where exactly can he cUt costs - unless it is for the price he pays for weanlings which hits on the suckler man and squeezes him further

If the SFP was gone most farmers would be producing at a loss and would leave the business either by choice or not. This would leave less cattle being produced and so supply and demand would mean processors would need to increase prices to secure cattle. The other scenario is that the beef industry is finished in this country.
Of course the SFP cannot just be dropped overnight. It would need to be phased out allowing a gradual readjustment of the whole agrifood industry. Withdrawing the SFP overnight would be like abandoning the Euro something politicians across Europe don't want to happen because of the catastrophic effect it would have on the European economy.