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Ultra Discussion Thread
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dublin runner wrote: »Seriously? You cannot really believe that. I estimate that in my circle of friends/family that the vast majority couldn't even run continuously for 5,000m, never mind the distance from Cork to Dublin.
I really doubt I could do it, despite being a reasonably well trained long distance runner.
Two words- Eddie Izzard
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dublin runner wrote: »I know this is going off-topic but I fundamentally disagree with the above. The only small bit I agree is that most will 'eventually cover the distance'. Now, that may take 8 hours for the marathon or 50 minutes for the 5k but eventually most will. I would argue that the an 8 hour marathon is not an achievement for an able bodied person but that's a whole different discussion!
You really can not compare 42k to 250k+. It's like comparing a piece of music to the reliability of a 2007 Volkswagen Passat! Either you are down playing the difficulty of an ultra distance (like the one mentioned) or are seriously overestimating the fitness of the average Irish adult.
Well, we're in the ultra discussion thread, so we're well on thread topic! Very much so, I'd say
You're actually agreeing with me... Most people will eventually cover the distance. It's taking extremes to get the point accross, but that's exactly what I'm saying. Covering the distance is not a problem once you have the time and support to do it.
Now when you argue that covering in 8 hours is not an achievement you're now really starting to get the point I'm trying to make.... It's the time over the distance that determines the level of achievement, not the distance itself. How long that distance happens to be is not really relevant. You've pretty much nailed what I'm trying to point out!
So far this year alone I've run three races way longer than 250k. I think I can compare 42K with 250k with the full benifit of experience, not just theory. There's nothing magical about any particular distance, whether it be 42k or 250k. They are as comparable as 10k to 42k, for example. Anyone who races both distances should be able to make performance comparisons between.
I really don't think I'm downplaying the difficulty of ultra distance. Distance is just distance. You're creating some kind of artificial barrier/limitation there. Fitness isn't a limitation in completing distance, given enough time. Fitness is a limitation on completing any distance in a specific time though.
Can you give me an estimate, to the nearest meter if possible, what the average distance limit of the average Irish adult is? And if not, why not?0 -
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TheGreenMile wrote: »But the first sentence of my op explains my view. I never said 'complete, finish, walk or jog the distance', I said RUN the distance.
Ahhh... but that's not necessarily an indicator either. I've been at a 24 hour race where the female winner walked the entire thing (she covered well over 160km). That was very impressive (and a brilliant patient race strategy). Fast walking can beat slow running, especially over longer distances.
Equally someone, could run 100 meters, take a break, recover, run another 100 meters etc. That would still be running the distance. (As a side point, Don didn't RUN the WW back to back in 37 hours... he's much faster than that. He had to have either (a) walked a few bits or (b) had some rests or (c) most likely of all a bit of both.... as all bar the uber-elites would).
In the end it is the speed over the (full) distance that determines the relative merit of the achievement. Completing the distance is easy. Completing the distance in a good time is not easy, irrespective of the distance.TheGreenMile wrote: »I completely agree with you on most of your views. Too many so called legends out there who managed to cross a finish line are now completely amazing. RSP syndrome. This wasnt one of them.
Dublin runner worded it perfectly: Either you are down playing the difficulty of an ultra distance (like the one mentioned) or are seriously overestimating the fitness of the average Irish adult.
I think you guys are seriously hugely overestimating the difficulty of covering distances! All it takes is time.TheGreenMile wrote: »But by saying its not that difficult can be taken as a positive. Its fuelling the fire for someone to take on the challenge.
So Enduro? How u fixed? 😉
Spot on that its a positive. Anyone can take on the challenge. You guys are seriously overestimating the difficult (because there is very little) in simply covering distance... any distance.
Me...the only thing fueling my fire here would be to prove the point by going out and running WW-B2B as a weekend training run. 2 things stop me from doing that. (1) Respect for Don. He's been targetting this for a while. (2) It's not a record I have any real interest in. But even to do it as a training run would have a large effect on my ability to train for my next upcoming "A" race (which is The Spine... not too far away now).0 -
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"I think you guys are seriously hugely overestimating the difficulty of covering distances! All it takes is time."
Again, I never mentioned the word 'covering' distances. I used the words run. Im not 'seriously hugely overestimating' the difficulty of covering distances, I do have some ultra experience to generate an opinion on this feat by Don. This debate is not about covering distances,we all agree on distance alone not been an achievement, its about a few people on here believing Don completed something worthy of a 'hat tip' and then your opinion that on this occasion the 37hrs doesnt merit 'the tippeth of ur hat'. Thats fine. But i still think ur wrong
Like u mentioned, Ultras dont always go as planned, and u cant decide to try again a week later, for example Don in Turin had a great run, was it amazing? No, but it could have been worse.So with this in mind, and other factors like the desparate weather, the hills and been on his toblerone, i defintly dont think it wasn't worth a mention. As a nation, I believe we are progressing in the sport. This personal challenge can only be positive step forward. We get no guidance and very few get support from our national association, so were left to help one another.
If anything it gave me the motivation to get off me hole when i debated to go for a run in last Sundays crappy weather.0 -
TheGreenMile wrote: »your opinion that on this occasion the 37hrs doesnt merit 'the tippeth of ur hat'. Thats fine. But i still think ur wrong
Not true... it was a very good run indeed, absolutely. I did say that very few people in Ireland would be able to match it. But I don't think that (1) it was Don's best run this year (2) it was Don's best run over the WW (3) It was significantly difficult in and of itself (4) and obviously enough following on from that that it was performance of the year (5) that the weather was that desperate.
It all started from someone asking about the relative merit of the performance. I'm just giving an honest and objective answer to my best ability. That doesn't mean I don't applaud the effort.TheGreenMile wrote: »Like u mentioned, Ultras dont always go as planned, and u cant decide to try again a week later, for example Don in Turin had a great run, was it amazing? No, but it could have been worse.So with this in mind, and other factors like the desparate weather, the hills and been on his toblerone, i defintly dont think it wasn't worth a mention. As a nation, I believe we are progressing in the sport. This personal challenge can only be positive step forward. We get no guidance and very few get support from our national association, so were left to help one another.
If anything it gave me the motivation to get off me hole when i debated to go for a run in last Sundays crappy weather.
Again, it was absolutely worth a mention. If no one else had done it I'd have done it myself. And I'm with you on the motivation front. Nothing worse than starting out in the feckin rain for me.
Yeah, we're progressing on most fronts alright, particularly in terms of participation numbers (which brilliant). Less so at the top end unfortunately (Where have all the 100km runners gone?!). But part of progressing surely is to be able to honestly and objectively analyse the merit of performances (easy enough for flat ultras but more difficult for trail).0 -
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Enduro wrote:"I think you guys are seriously hugely overestimating the difficulty of covering distances! All it takes is time."
I think Enduro keeps forgetting that the rest of us are mere mortals. Ok, running 250k over a whole week would not be particularly hard and is indeed something anyone can accomplish but doing it in one go is pretty damn bloody hard. It's not that long ago that I covered a similar distance and it was the hardest thing I've ever done. 2:55 marathons are a piece of cake in comparison.TheGreenMile wrote: »Like u mentioned, Ultras dont always go as planned, and u cant decide to try again a week later, for example Don in Turin had a great run,
Actually I think Don would be the first one to point out that his race in Turin was not a great run. He expected to do a lot better!
That leads me straight to my next point, however. Don seemed to have problems in very long races. Belfast last year, Turin and Spartathlon this year, by his own standards he underperformed in all of them. I think that the best thing he got out of the WW double was that it confirmed that he can indeed last that time and distance.0 -
TFBubendorfer wrote: »I think Enduro keeps forgetting that the rest of us are mere mortals.
Hah! I was just talking to someone about you yesterday and mere mortality didn't come into it I think you can take yourself out of the "rest of us" group. There was only one total standout good performance from the broad Irish and Irish based (including traitorous defectors ) group racing in Turin, and he was wearing an Austrian singlet!! Everyone else underperformed in someway.TFBubendorfer wrote: »Actually I think Don would be the first one to point out that his race in Turin was not a great run. He expected to do a lot better!
For sure! I would hazard a guess the he probably thinks that he could do better on WW-B2B as well. I would guess he ran it to ensure he finished it, as opposed to red-lining it to attempt his fastest possible time (Which I would say would be the correct tactics, as it happens).TFBubendorfer wrote: »That leads me straight to my next point, however. Don seemed to have problems in very long races. Belfast last year, Turin and Spartathlon this year, by his own standards he underperformed in all of them. I think that the best thing he got out of the WW double was that it confirmed that he can indeed last that time and distance.
Agreed, by his own standards (i.e. one of the top ultra runners in Ireland). Although his Belfast run was very good this year.0 -
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ultrapercy wrote: »There is an opinion that top class marathon runners would obliterate the ultra record books, if motivation thinly disguised as money, was there but I don't think that's true.
I usually find the opinion is formulated as a lazy assumption derived from a complete and utter lack of knowledge. It's quite bizarre. As I outlined a page or two back, it's highly unlikely that the best marathon runners would be the best ultra runners (Due to the general likelihood that if some is the best at distance X they are unlikely to be the best at 250% of X etc. There's quite a few examples of very good marathon runners getting whacked when they step up to 100km+ (My favourite example being when Dan Doherty won the ACP 100K for Ireland, beating 2 or 3 sub 2:20 English marathoners in the process)ultrapercy wrote: »I think up to 100k some improvement would be made because they are really just extended marathons that require much the same training and approach. In real Ultras, over trail and/or day of multi day duration, it's almost a different sport and requires a whole different set of tools to get the job done many of which are psycological.This post is not in any way a dig at anyone else, just my own opinions on some limited experience.
I agree with that in general. I call it speed ultras verus endurance ultras. Yannis Kouros also thinks along similar lines as regards to going beyond 100km IIRC. I don't think Yannis regards 100km as real ultra running :eek:0 -
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TFBubendorfer wrote: »There were plenty of pictures, updates and other posts about his run on facebook (one from himself, most from his supporters), so any complaints about this being discussed on a different social media site would quite frankly be ridiculous.
Knowing Don (admittedly, I don't know him THAT well), I'd say he doesn't particularly care if others discuss his run or not and I'm sure he isn't embarrassed about it.
I agree completely. Ultra runners are not a sensitve bunch.
Thats what 10k's are for
The use of the real time tracker with a link on FB was a way of allowing any intereted to follow his adventure.0 -
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