Ultra Discussion Thread

Djoucer

New research to back up low carb diet and fat burning.

"Elite endurance athletes who eat very few carbohydrates burned more than twice as much fat as high-carb athletes during maximum exertion and prolonged exercise in a new study - the highest fat-burning rates under these conditions ever seen by researchers."

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2015-11/osu-eaw111615.php

ger664

Most interesting thing in that article is that glycogen stores did not reduce on a restricted carb diet. That been the case then surely carb loading or increasing carb intake isnt going to increases your glycogen storage either.

Myles Splitz

Djoucer wrote: »

New research to back up low carb diet and fat burning. while running at sub maximal efforts in Ultra marathoners

Few Caveats

- All participants were Ultra Marathon runners, there was no comparison between Ultra Marathoner's and Marathon runners

- Participants running at sub maximal levels for 3 hours (64% Vo2 max) well below relative race efforts for that duration (significantly lower RER)

A fair bit of bias overall in the study to be honest with very little bearing on performance.

Full manuscript here

Enduro

Myles Splitz wrote: »

Few Caveats

- All participants were Ultra Marathon runners, there was no comparison between Ultra Marathoner's and Marathon runners

- Participants running at sub maximal levels for 3 hours (64% Vo2 max) well below relative race efforts for that duration (significantly lower RER)

A fair bit of bias overall in the study to be honest with very little bearing on performance.

Full manuscript here

You know this is the ultra thread here! Marathon performance wasn't the subject of the experiment. I don't know why you're raising the subject of marathon runners in relation to this paper.

Athletics doesn't end at the marathon. There is a lot to be learned by looking at the extremes, as this paper shows (thanks for the link to the original by the way... I've been looking for it a few days and hadn't found it).

- It's not about comparing marathon runners to ultra marathon runners. It's much more interesting than that.

- It sounds like participants were running at levels of intensity which would be quite compatable to the levels of intensity that they are training to compete (at elite level) in. Well below what relative race efforts? This has nothing to do with marathon runners remember.

There is no bias there whatsoever. I don't think the word marathon was mentioned once in the paper.

I've been hearing about this experiment for ages. It's been flagged for some time by some of the more interesting sports scientists (and ultra runners taking part in the experiments). It's great to see some good science being done on the subject using actual elite athletes that have been going HFLC for months and years, rather than a short timeframe, and being tested over relatively longer durations.

It's a pity its so hard to measure longer durations... it'd be really interesting to get some hard data beyond 12 hours.

davedanon

I hadn't noticed that it was confined to ultra-runners. Thanks for pointing that out, Myles.

That on its own doesn't give me pause. The research and conclusions could still be valid.

What does give me pause, however, is the fact that the study was funded by the Atkins people, proponents, miracle of miracles, of a high-fat, low-carb, best-selling diet.

I mean, what are the chances?

Myles Splitz

Enduro wrote: »

You know this is the ultra thread here! Marathon performance wasn't the subject of the experiment. I don't know why you're raising the subject of marathon runners in relation to this paper.

Athletics doesn't end at the marathon. There is a lot to be learned by looking at the extremes, as this paper shows (thanks for the link to the original by the way... I've been looking for it a few days and hadn't found it).

- It's not about comparing marathon runners to ultra marathon runners. It's much more interesting than that.

- It sounds like participants were running at levels of intensity which would be quite compatable to the levels of intensity that they are training to compete (at elite level) in. Well below what relative race efforts? This has nothing to do with marathon runners remember.

There is no bias there whatsoever. I don't think the word marathon was mentioned once in the paper.

I've been hearing about this experiment for ages. It's been flagged for some time by some of the more interesting sports scientists (and ultra runners taking part in the experiments). It's great to see some good science being done on the subject using actual elite athletes that have been going HFLC for months and years, rather than a short timeframe, and being tested over relatively longer durations.

It's a pity its so hard to measure longer durations... it'd be really interesting to get some hard data beyond 12 hours.

Well aware of the fact it is an ultra marathon thread however given that 3 hours was the duration tested the duration is too short to draw conclusions from in terms of ultra marathon running as 3 hours duration would fall short off all bar elite 50k runners with relation to "maximal exertion" and even then effort levels would be higher than 64% of Vo2max. This would have a huge bearing on the glycogen utilization.

Similarly one of the references (Phinney 1983) also uses this effort level in his study of elite cyclists performances despite it being too far short of race efforts.

Enduro

Myles Splitz wrote: »

Well aware of the fact it is an ultra marathon thread however given that 3 hours was the duration tested the duration is too short to draw conclusions from in terms of ultra marathon running as 3 hours duration would fall short off all bar elite 50k runners with relation to "maximal exertion" and even then effort levels would be higher than 64% of Vo2max. This would have a huge bearing on the glycogen utilization.

Similarly one of the references (Phinney 1983) also uses this effort level in his study of elite cyclists performances despite it being too far short of race efforts.

Yeah, as I say it's a pity it's so difficult to measure long ultra efforts in the lab (never mind in real life). But 64% Vo2max doesn't sound outragous for maximal effort in a long ultra. Beyond 16 hours / 200km or so is really quite unlike the marathon in terms of realistic maximal exertion. (And most of these guys would probably be well able for reasonably fast marathons (2:31 for Zach Bitter anyway)).

Myles Splitz

Enduro wrote: »

Yeah, as I say it's a pity it's so difficult to measure long ultra efforts in the lab (never mind in real life). But 64% Vo2max doesn't sound outragous for maximal effort in a long ultra. Beyond 16 hours / 200km or so is really quite unlike the marathon in terms of realistic maximal exertion. (And most of these guys would probably be well able for reasonably fast marathons (2:31 for Zach Bitter anyway)).

Need to rope in a few of the treadmill record chasers

While it doesn't sound outlandish in terms of race effort it does make a huge difference at that duration as the rate of exertion would dramatically change from a race effort to a handy long run (to draw a comparison would be like trying to determine fueling efficiency of a Kenya by having them run a 5 mile @ MP)

For what it's worth I do think there is a place for fat adaptation in Ultra distance running (and even for 4+ marathon runners to an extent) however I must confess I am not a fan of Volek's work on the subject and don't feel that alot of his research actually lends itself to supporting the advocates.

pistol_75

Catriona Jennings to run for Ireland in the World 50K in Doha. Gary O'Hanlon & Barry Minnock to run in the men's race.

Took it from some other threads on here that Jennings wasn't doing anything since London 2012.

RacoonQueen

pistol_75 wrote: »

Catriona Jennings to run for Ireland in the World 50K in Doha. Gary O'Hanlon & Barry Minnock to run in the men's race.

Took it from some other threads on here that Jennings wasn't doing anything since London 2012.

From my googling about this, she reverted to rowing thinking it would be easy to qualify for Rio in, then found out it wasn't..

pistol_75

RacoonQueen wrote: »

From my googling about this, she reverted to rowing thinking it would be easy to qualify for Rio in, then found out it wasn't..

That's what I thought alright. Wonder on what basis or results she was selected?

RacoonQueen

It would be strange if we hadn't heard she'd run a marathon recently, unless she's done something very low key or has done a 50K somewhere. She might have entered the open race though?

How come it's in Doha again?

pistol_75

RacoonQueen wrote:

It would be strange if we hadn't heard she'd run a marathon recently, unless she's done something very low key or has done a 50K somewhere. She might have entered the open race though?

On the Athletics Ireland press release so they're entering the team. Google doesn't show anything results wise in last couple of years. Hopefully she runs well anyway.

RacoonQueen wrote:

How come it's in Doha again?

Money, money, money. Was talking to Gary last week and he said there is nothing to do there and the conditions are awful to run in.

TRR_the_turd

Enduro wrote: »

You know this is the ultra thread here! Marathon performance wasn't the subject of the experiment. I don't know why you're raising the subject of marathon runners in relation to this paper.

On that point, this is the athletics and running thread should adventure races and events like the out and back, back again and out again Wicklow way not be posted to the TDAR thread?

Djoucer

TRR_the_turd wrote: »

On that point, this is the athletics and running thread should adventure races and events like the out and back, back again and out again Wicklow way not be posted to the TDAR thread?

Because it is running. And clearly marked the ultra thread.

Seriously, ridiculous contribution to an otherwise interesting thread.

There's a wealth of research and you pick up on some petty nonsense that has nothing to do with running or the ultra thread or even the tdar thread.

TRR_the_turd

Djoucer wrote: »

Because it is running. And clearly marked the ultra thread.

Seriously, ridiculous contribution to an otherwise interesting thread.

I'm just pointing out that there is an adventure race forum specifically for a lot of the events mentioned in this thread! If I was argumentative, I could suggest that this thread is a ridiculous contribution to an otherwise interesting forum!

I think we need a poll!

Djoucer

TRR_the_turd wrote: »

I'm just pointing out that there is an adventure race forum specifically for a lot of the events mentioned in this thread! If I was argumentative, I could suggest that this thread is a ridiculous contribution to an otherwise interesting forum!

I think we need a poll!

You're not pointing out anything. It's all running and features Irish international runners.

It's an interesting thread and easy to ignore due to the name "ultra thread."

You're an interesting poster with no interest in this thread.

lgk

TRR_the_turd wrote: »

I'm just pointing out that there is an adventure race forum specifically for a lot of the events mentioned in this thread! If I was argumentative, I could suggest that this thread is a ridiculous contribution to an otherwise interesting forum!

I think we need a poll!

What section of the WW did don kayak? Cycle?

TRR_the_turd

lgk wrote: »

What section of the WW did don kayak? Cycle?

Wasn't aware that an adventure race had to have these 3 components if I'm honest. From what I read, I see he had to hurdle a fence though!

ThisRegard

And what exact adventure race do you have issues with on this thread?

TRR_the_turd

ThisRegard wrote: »

And what exact adventure race do you have issues with on this thread?

Don't have an issue with any of these non standard events (probably wouldn't call some of them races as that would imply a field of competitors). I was just being a pedant and wondering should they be discussed in a forum specifically designated for adventure races. Seems these non standard events aren't adventure races as they don't have biking/kayaking/rock climbing/bungee jumping etc etc

lgk

TRR_the_turd wrote: »

Wasn't aware that an adventure race had to have these 3 components if I'm honest. From what I read, I see he had to hurdle a fence though!

Ah, so it was the hurdling threw you. Sure enough you wouldn't see anyone hurdling at a track event...:D

See here for the generally accepted international understanding of what adventure racing involves, and head over to TDAR where the current and very epic World Championships are being tracked.

Djoucer

Mourne Skyline race was was on channel 4 this morning. Should be 4od now.

Cabaal

TRR_the_turd wrote: »

Wasn't aware that an adventure race had to have these 3 components if I'm honest. From what I read, I see he had to hurdle a fence though!

We had to run through water (flooding ) doing the clonakilty marathon one year, it was half a foot deep and was 200metres long. Was it an adventure race?

menoscemo

Live updates from world 50k in Doha here: http://my6.raceresult.com/46817/?lang=en#1_EBD534
After 5k Gary O'H is in 15th and Bazman 22nd but it's all pretty bunched
Catriona Jennings in 5th in the Women's

menoscemo

5 laps in and the lead men have upped to pace to pull away from Gary and the others.Gary still in 8th place but over a minute behind.

In the women's race Catriona is in 5th overall but is in a pack of 5 chasing the bronze. The two leaders are over 4 minutes ahead.

ThisRegard

The 50k Wicklow Way race is this weekend isn't it?

Enduro

ThisRegard wrote: »

The 50k Wicklow Way race is this weekend isn't it?

No standard distances this weekend outside of Doha. It's one of Don's 50 mile events on the Wicklow Way.

DogSlySmile

Enduro wrote: »

No standard distances this weekend outside of Doha. It's one of Don's 50 mile events on the Wicklow Way.

Yep, its the 50 mile swim on the wicklow way. It was a running event but with the forecast for tomorrow they had to change it up.

davedanon

DogSlySmile wrote: »

Yep, its the 50 mile swim on the wicklow way. It was a running event but with the forecast for tomorrow they had to change it up.

Does that mean it has to go in the 'adventure race' forum, as per TRR's dictum?